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Old 12-18-2014, 03:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiathLeFey View Post

Maybe you're right in that I am treating the world like a "buffet".

I am not Christian, I am not straight, I adhere to an alternative lifestyle, I have a disability. I'm not looking for a place to fit in, or for anything or anyone to save me. I don't need to be saved. I have a strong inclination to be closer to the Earth and live in harmony.

I do have white privilege. I am well aware of that. But just because I'm white doesn't mean I cannot relate in some way. I am part Jewish.

I practice Druidry because of my Irish and Scottish heritage. I come from Pagan descent...Well, Druidry was wiped out. We have some idea of what it was like, ...because true Druidry has been lost to time.

Maybe in a sense, us Western Europeans grasp at other culture's customs because we have been severed from our own?
Has Madonna ditched Kabbalah for Islam? Singer reveals she is studying the Koran | Daily Mail Online

Has Madonna ditched Kabbalah for Islam? Singer reveals she is studying the Koran


By Aladair Glennie Published: 20:01 EST, 6 October 2013


It is almost a quarter of a century since she first sang Like A Prayer.

But it seems the intervening years have done little to help Madonna decide exactly who she’s praying to.

For it appears the queen of re-invention may be on the verge of one of her most startling changes yet, after she revealed she was studying the Koran.

The 55-year-old was raised a Roman Catholic, but for the past 17 years she has been a devout follower of Kabbalah, a mystical offshoot of Judaism.

Now the singer, whose current partner is a Muslim, has begun investigating Islam.


She said: ‘I am building schools for girls in Islamic countries and studying the Koran.

‘I think it is important to study all the holy books.

‘As my friend Yaman always tells me, a good Muslim is a good Jew, and a good Jew is a good Christian, and so forth. I couldn’t agree more.

‘To some people this is a very daring thought.’

Madonna has followed Kabbalah since 1996. She famously persuaded her former husband, British director Guy Ritchie, to attend Kabbalah services before they split in 2008. But she and her current partner Brahim Zaibat, 25, have reportedly argued about religion because of his Muslim faith.

Madonna is said to dilute her children’s orange juice with specially blessed Kabbalah water, and often wears white clothes because they attract ‘positive energy’

In the past the entertainer has been challenged by senior Jewish figures for her faith, prompting her to say her beliefs ‘would be less controversial if I joined the Nazi Party’.

In her latest interview, with Harper’s Bazaar magazine, she said it ‘made people nervous’, adding: ‘It made people mad. Was I doing something dangerous? It forced me to ask myself, is trying to have a relationship with God daring? Maybe it is.’

Madonna said she was a ‘big believer in ritualistic behaviour’ and was ‘not a big fan of rules’. She explained: ‘Rules people follow without question.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:22 PM   #22
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Madonna got Rich White Rock Star Privilege! BAMM !!!

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Old 12-19-2014, 02:17 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
Madonna got Rich White Rock Star Privilege! BAMM !!!



Wonder where the OP disappeared to?
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:32 AM   #24
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Hope her Shaman didn't turn her into a Smoke Signal
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:56 AM   #25
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LOL! Madonna lived down the road from y cousin when they were growing up-went to the same Catholic HS and all that. I asked my cousin if she went to the class reunion-my cousin laughed for 5 minutes. :)
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:10 PM   #26
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you say you want to "get involved in Native American activism" in your very first opening post.......my suggestion is to drop the romanticism and look at it as "human rights" and "environmental" activism rather than "native" activism......trust me.....you will be alot more useful and a whole lot more help to us that way

i dont expect you to understand that until you been around us for a very substantial amount of time......then it will all make sense

all the NDNs here will know EXACTLY what i am talking about
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Old 12-19-2014, 01:31 PM   #27
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Okay. Time for a little venting.

To the OP - I understand the point you're trying to make when you say you're "part Jewish." It can be a valid point. But you're either a Jew or you ain't; there's no such thing as "part Jewish." Just because a family may have a "Jew in the woodpile" somewhere doesn't mean a thing. Unless you were raised as/lived as a Jew, any Jewish ancestry is pretty much irrelevant; it gives no special insight into what it means to belong to a minority population within a culture.

+++++++++

Ya know, I like Madonna. For dance music/pop music she's great. I admire her for her drive, her success and her doing it all "her way." In many ways, I think she should be a major feminist icon. I respect anyone who truly wants to learn about (not practice) other cultures/religions/viewpoints. But unless she's willing to actually convert to Judaism (and I don't recommend that; it's really not as much fun as it looks ) - then she needs to leave Kabbalah alone. Otherwise, she's just a poser - practicing parts of someone else's religion/culture, and doing so devoid of the context in which it belongs. I don't really blame her, though. She's just a misguided Gentile who doesn't know any better. I do blame the Jewish founders of the Kabbalah Center. They DO know better, and should be ashamed of themselves for getting rich off of the ignorance of others.

Rant over. Now I'm off to play games and eat frybread.
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Old 12-19-2014, 01:52 PM   #28
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My Turn!!

I think of the Hippies headed to the Rez in the 60's to find a deeper meaning. Or the Doctor dudes that went to a Meeting or two in the 70's to understand Peyote ways...
LoL
Or the Guy that killed people in his Sweat Lodge because he could cram more of them in to get mo Money
Ugh
But the Plastic Shaman and Twirly Crystal people are the worse, WHY do they always preface the question using same way Lakota or Dakota imagery? Why can't it be Choctaw or Shoshone or even Cree? How about Caddo? or even Swimnomish?? Because I will tell you why: "None of their Clients would ever go to them if they never heard of that tribe, they have only heard of Lakota".
Its about Branding and Name Recognition and making money

Ugh
Go somewhere else I hear the Buddhist don't mind!!
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Old 12-19-2014, 02:15 PM   #29
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@LiathLeFey, come out to AZ. You and I will ride my two motorcycles around Flagstaff, Tuba City, Flagstaff, Monument Valley and spend a day with some hippies out in the middle of nowhere.

Then we'll get tossed in jail for "parading without a permit" in Williams. When we get out, we will pick up the lawyer who helped us get out and head east to Mardi Gras.
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:20 PM   #30
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@LiathLeFey, come out to AZ. You and I will ride my two motorcycles around Flagstaff, Tuba City, Flagstaff, Monument Valley and spend a day with some hippies out in the middle of nowhere.

Then we'll get tossed in jail for "parading without a permit" in Williams. When we get out, we will pick up the lawyer who helped us get out and head east to Mardi Gras.
hey pal......flirt on your own time.......BUH!
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:49 PM   #31
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@LiathLeFey,

Then we'll get tossed in jail for "parading without a permit" in Williams. When we get out, we will pick up the lawyer who helped us get out and head east to Mardi Gras.
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:48 PM   #32
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He danced in the Sun Dance and he is white, and he was taught these practices by Lakota people.
Thoughts?
If that is true, he should keep it to himself and not try to teach or talk about that experience to anyone who is not part of native community, my opinion.

I don't think it's right to teach this to random non natives. Leave native american traditions alone and just go and look by what they offer to be seen by anyone else. Enjoy powwows, real powwows if you dare. You are young and look sad on your picture. Are you sad? Sorry, if I talk like this, bluntly. You remind me of my daughter a bit from your looks. One question, once you gained all that knowledge that you are looking for, what do you want to use it for?
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:54 PM   #33
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Tough call...

As Indians, we're not that special. Unique? Special? No.

I have no issues with anyone pursuing tribal religion but the side door motif doesn't work for me. Examples that do?

Tribes have been adopting children for untold years. Merely as a model, if I married into a matriarchal tribe, I would become that tribes constituent as well as my own.

There's a process...
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Old 12-20-2014, 02:08 PM   #34
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LOL
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Old 12-22-2014, 08:47 PM   #35
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Not at all! I celebrate my own ancestry. I've been studying Celtic Druidry for a while now, I am particularly smitten with the Celts of Ireland, Britain, Wales and Scotland. I have also looked into Norse Traditions as well. I'm not vulturizing anything. That's a rather negative perspective to place on someone you don't even know. Are you suggesting we should each racially stick to our own ancestral culture and not value or celebrate the diversity in the world around us?

Even many of the modern Druids as well as the Celtic Reconstructionists who are actively attempting to rekindle ties to the more traditional aspects of druidry and celtic paganism dating back to before Christian influence, quite often abhor the idea of mixing traditions as it doesn't build a proper understanding of the cultural and historical aspects of spirituality. (as a practicing Druid, I'm sure you're aware of even Isaac Bonewits's separation of Druidism into three periods and rejection of the Revival-Druidic era because of the view that it does not hold true to the essence of Druidism)

The mixing of spiritualities may seem like it provides an eclectic approach that benefits the user, but it's also a double edged sword. You never grow to truly understand the depth and true meaning of even one spirituality, and simply end up being a jack of all trades-master of none... with only a surface understanding of that which you claim to hold dear. BUT...You can enjoy something without trying to take pieces from it.

It reminds me of a child with a flower that they really love to look at in a field. They look at it every day as they pass and really enjoy it, but once they pluck it and try to take that bit away to keep for themselves, it loses the nutrients that helped it grow and now it dies.

On top of that, others who really ARE in the cultures that you've taken bits and pieces from now have to watch as hungry little dwarves chip away at the threads which we've tried to hold onto and keep sacred after centuries of abuse and extortion. You can participate in certain events which the culture and those involved in it personally give you permission to participate in. You can join others to support a cause that You believe in. You can ask questions to those within a culture (and accept the answers you are given) and learn what you can to gain a better understanding. But you can't bogart your way in, pick and choose, or learn from a second-hand party and expect to gain anything of substance.
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Old 12-23-2014, 02:39 AM   #36
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Looks like the OP bailed out since she didn't hear what she wanted to hear. Like that's a surprise. LOL!
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Old 12-23-2014, 08:14 AM   #37
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Druids? What happened? Either I was at a different tower some 40 years ago or this one has been completely digged out off the ground. With my irish friend we went on that hill and it was covered with bushes, large bushes around the top. I wandered around and into the bushes and all of a sudden I came across this pole, with a small entry, had to bend down to get in and it was a room of maybe 2,00 meters diameter and in the middle of the floor a square hole maybe 50 cm wide. I asked my friend what is this? He said, something of the druids. But when I looked up this place online and see the pictures, I wonder.... did anyone got rid of the bushes hiding the place and dug out the whole monument? All I got to see back in time was the pointy top as I described. Hm..., this is a picture of what it looks like now.

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Old 01-20-2015, 12:38 AM   #38
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I see this post has already received a wealth of wise replies. My two cents to the OP...

You ask if it is disrespectful to learn about the cultures of others without taking from them or practicing aspects of them… but if you are in some sort of shamanic training by a non-native who in your words “incorporate(s) Lakota practices” then are you not taking aspects of them??

My humble opinion is that anyone who pleases can study and learn as much as they desire about any culture or religion… however, as others have mentioned here, to take the parts you like of a culture’s religion and incorporate it into your own practices, is definitely going to offend some folks. Native practices vary between tribes and regions and each group hold their beliefs very sacred and not to be taken lightly.

Why do you feel guilty for being white? The Creator of Native Americans is the same One who created whites… you are what He meant for you to be. My advice from personal experience is to start spending a lot of time in meditation and sincere prayer, asking Creator to reveal your way to you. It seems you may be in some way spiritually lost…. Many people go through that journey and I wish you luck.
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Old 01-30-2015, 06:00 AM   #39
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Slightly Different Question

Hello, I was reading this thread and I made an account to ask a related question.

I am of mixed European descent. Veneration of the spirits of nature is an important part of my own personal spiritual practice. My belief system is heavily influenced by animism, the belief that all things have a spirit. This is not something that I have come to necessarily picked up from Native American religion, it's something I've sort of always intuitively known. I try to educate myself on a variety of religions, and I know a little of the beliefs of some tribes, and nothing at all about others. At any rate, I don't claim to "practice Native American religion", nor do I want to.

Anyway, here's the question: I live in Washington state and I want to perform private, solitary rituals to honor the body of water commonly referred to as the Puget Sound. I feel uncomfortable addressing this body of water by that name though, as the name is taken from a European "explorer". I'm not ashamed of being white, but I do find the whole history of colonization unsavory, to say the least, and I'd rather not use that name. I've read that the Lushootseed name for this body of water is "Hwulch" or "Wulge", meaning "salt water", and that this name is still in use by some Native Americans and some environmentalist groups. I do not speak Lushootseed. In your opinion, would it be disrespectful to use this name when honoring this body of water? I'm certainly not trying to imitate Native rituals, but the land that I live on is important to me. Animism is present in many cultures across the globe, and while this land might not be where my ancestors resided, it's where I am now. It seems to me (I could be wrong) more respectful to use the original name for the body of water than one that was slapped on to commemorate some guy in the British Navy. Anyway, sorry if my question seems disrespectful in any way, and thanks for listening.
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Old 07-29-2015, 06:05 AM   #40
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No matter what you do, you're going to offend somebody. I've been dancing powwow since I was 11 and I am not of Indian descent. You go ahead and study what you want to study and never mind the people you will be offending. They will always be there, study or no. I think what the other lady said is important though. As a student of the Indian culture, don't presume to expertise, you will always be a student. Don't interpret us, listen to us. Don't represent us, follow us. Don't exploit your knowledge to make yourself rich, rather pass on the knowledge. Other than that, listen, learn, dance and have fun.
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