[milehighsalute]

im just wondering....and im not trying to be an azz, but i been wondering for YEARS, but what is your obsession with indians and wolves? what is the connection? its in alot of stories written by white people as well as in all the native themed pictures drawn by white artists.............either pet wolves or howling wolves.....dont get me wrong i think wolves are a magnificent animal....but its pretty high on the twinkie factor like fringed buckskin and rabbit fur lined dreamcatchers

[Spiritflight]

I don't know but maybe it's because they don't know much about natives. Your choice if you open up to those which are true friends. No need to that. But since they don't know much about natives, they get this kind of romantic picture. And that is not always right. There are good and bad people everywhere. Good when natives prevent their ways and culture. Okay, when others don't have to know... but not every non native is a bad person towards natives. My opinion and experience, but not important or what? So what.....

[White Powwow Dancer]

I got a ? for you. The first day we step foot on this land. Native americans taught us how to grow corn and squash. They taught us to fight from the trees during the American Revolutionary War. think about that and give me your answer. Chi Migwetch WPD

[AmigoKumeyaay]

.
Next Question.

[milehighsalute]

haha yeah amigo...i know it started way before that but that seemed to push it over the edge...im indian and i wonder if there are actually any tribes out there that just hang around chillin with a lone wolf......some of my white friends gave me pics of indian chicks kickin it with a wolf.....or some indian medicine man praying with a wolf image in the background.....one guy even painted a pic for one of my friends of some indian on a horse holding a dreamcatcher and right beside the horse was you guessed it...a WOLF hahahaha.....we are usually gracious and polite but we dont hang that up in our houses...haha we re-wrap it and give it to other white people ...i just dont get it....do you think all of us have a pet wolf?

[NancyJo]

LOL

When I see someone with one of those romantic Native American T shirts headed my way and wanting to tell me their genealogy.....I get on the dance floor QUICK!!!!

[lbgood]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

im just wondering....and im not trying to be an azz, but i been wondering for YEARS, but what is your obsession with indians and wolves? what is the connection? its in alot of stories written by white people as well as in all the native themed pictures drawn by white artists.............either pet wolves or howling wolves.....dont get me wrong i think wolves are a magnificent animal....but its pretty high on the twinkie factor like fringed buckskin and rabbit fur lined dreamcatchers

.
.

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

haha yeah amigo...i know it started way before that but that seemed to push it over the edge...im indian and i wonder if there are actually any tribes out there that just hang around chillin with a lone wolf......some of my white friends gave me pics of indian chicks kickin it with a wolf.....or some indian medicine man praying with a wolf image in the background.....one guy even painted a pic for one of my friends of some indian on a horse holding a dreamcatcher and right beside the horse was you guessed it...a WOLF hahahaha.....we are usually gracious and polite but we dont hang that up in our houses...haha we re-wrap it and give it to other white people ...i just dont get it....do you think all of us have a pet wolf?

- my Dakota Sioux Exhubby and I had a Yorkshire-Chihuahua-Mix - Best Friend but sadly enough - Ex drank too much and it messed it all up - nevertheless I cleared the way for him to meet his native family since he was an adopted child by non natives. Nuff of that -

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

haha yeah amigo...i know it started way before that but that seemed to push it over the edge...im indian and i wonder if there are actually any tribes out there that just hang around chillin with a lone wolf......some of my white friends gave me pics of indian chicks kickin it with a wolf.....or some indian medicine man praying with a wolf image in the background.....one guy even painted a pic for one of my friends of some indian on a horse holding a dreamcatcher and right beside the horse was you guessed it...a WOLF hahahaha.....we are usually gracious and polite but we dont hang that up in our houses...haha we re-wrap it and give it to other white people ...i just dont get it....do you think all of us have a pet wolf?

I guess my other reply didn't get through - - to make it short - my Dakota Sioux Exhubby and me had a Yorkshire-Chihuahua-Mix.

[AmigoKumeyaay]

NOTICE TO ALL POSTERS ON THIS THREAD:

This sub-forum is MODERATED, your post may not show until a Moderator "approves" it for posting.

This was meant to supervise non-members, or brand new members posts, their posts are "held" for review.

[docat]

OK, I'm not white, but I think I can offer something for you to consider:

I was taught that white children, red children, black children all are the same inside...the same abilities to be evil or to do good reside in all. My medical student daughter tells me that we are all relatives, not one person on this earth is not linked to the other by ancestry.

As to the interests in wolves or things Native American, I was told that non-Natives are drawn to these things because of the land. All these white people are born here in the Americas and they don't understand why these things interest them. An elder told me that this is tied to a person's place of birth, not his ancestors. There is a religious significance to WHERE every person is born.

Russell Means (no matter what you think of him) used to say that he didn't like the term "Native American" to refer to the NDNs. He said white people who are born here are also Native Americans. He was referring to the birth significance as well as his preference to use the term NDN.

And as far as wolves are concerned, they are ancient sacred animals. Why shouldn't the white people revere them? We don't have problems with them esteeming the eagle as we do.

I know there are a small number of people in Europe who also like to be like the NDNs, but my guess is that NDN culture is the only tribal one that is recent enough to be documented that they can relate to. Tribal people of the white variety were all over Europe in the past. Almost none of their individual cultures survived. But I suspect that their fascination for all things NDN comes from their European longing for their own lost nativity roots which those born in the Americas already have found.

[wardancer]

The Native side of me says WTF !!!
The Scots/Irish side wants one of those dream catchers with the purty colored feathers and a pet wolf !

[RestlessN8iv]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

im just wondering....and im not trying to be an azz, but i been wondering for YEARS, but what is your obsession with indians and wolves? what is the connection? its in alot of stories written by white people as well as in all the native themed pictures drawn by white artists.............either pet wolves or howling wolves.....dont get me wrong i think wolves are a magnificent animal....but its pretty high on the twinkie factor like fringed buckskin and rabbit fur lined dreamcatchers

I asked my fiancé this question, and her answer was:

"Because we spent hundreds of years trying to wipe you both out, and now we like to see you both together because we feel bad about it?"

I love this woman.

[AmigoKumeyaay]

On Ebay $25.00 Velvet with wood frame
.

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by docat

OK, I'm not white, but I think I can offer something for you to consider:

I was taught that white children, red children, black children all are the same inside...the same abilities to be evil or to do good reside in all. My medical student daughter tells me that we are all relatives, not one person on this earth is not linked to the other by ancestry.

As to the interests in wolves or things Native American, I was told that non-Natives are drawn to these things because of the land. All these white people are born here in the Americas and they don't understand why these things interest them. An elder told me that this is tied to a person's place of birth, not his ancestors. There is a religious significance to WHERE every person is born.

Russell Means (no matter what you think of him) used to say that he didn't like the term "Native American" to refer to the NDNs. He said white people who are born here are also Native Americans. He was referring to the birth significance as well as his preference to use the term NDN.

And as far as wolves are concerned, they are ancient sacred animals. Why shouldn't the white people revere them? We don't have problems with them esteeming the eagle as we do.

I know there are a small number of people in Europe who also like to be like the NDNs, but my guess is that NDN culture is the only tribal one that is recent enough to be documented that they can relate to. Tribal people of the white variety were all over Europe in the past. Almost none of their individual cultures survived. But I suspect that their fascination for all things NDN comes from their European longing for their own lost nativity roots which those born in the Americas already have found.

I don't think that fellow Europeans are longing to their nativity roots, I think it's more the proper outlook on nature and life what they admire in NDN'S

[docat]

No bids either. There is no accounting for the artistically challenged. But it is not just the NDN and wolves and such on velvet. Elvis and Jesus has graced the velvet medium too.

This isn't funny.

In fact this whole discussion isn't enlightening. It was meant to get a bandwagon of voices together to make fun of or laugh at the ignorance of others.

OK, I don't like something about white people too: I hate it when white people think they have to walk on eggshells around us. I really HATE that. And it is attitudes like the prevailing ones in this thread that makes them act that way because most of them are polite and most of them aren't racist and most bend over backwards to keep from offending us. And are we always as polite and non-racist??? It goes both ways.

It's like we have to go running off like weak little girls if someone wears a romanticized NDN t-shirt? Come on. Bad fashion/art isn't catching... My daughters sometimes wear goofy t-shirts that I don't even understand...so they only can wear something in their own culture?

I may be the only voice here that thinks this way, but it is not cool to make fun of others or to stereotype groups of people.

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by docat

No bids either. There is no accounting for the artistically challenged. But it is not just the NDN and wolves and such on velvet. Elvis and Jesus has graced the velvet medium too.

This isn't funny.

In fact this whole discussion isn't enlightening. It was meant to get a bandwagon of voices together to make fun of or laugh at the ignorance of others.

OK, I don't like something about white people too: I hate it when white people think they have to walk on eggshells around us. I really HATE that. And it is attitudes like the prevailing ones in this thread that makes them act that way because most of them are polite and most of them aren't racist and most bend over backwards to keep from offending us. And are we always as polite and non-racist??? It goes both ways.

It's like we have to go running off like weak little girls if someone wears a romanticized NDN t-shirt? Come on. Bad fashion/art isn't catching... My daughters sometimes wear goofy t-shirts that I don't even understand...so they only can wear something in their own culture?

I may be the only voice here that thinks this way, but it is not cool to make fun of others or to stereotype groups of people.

Good point - docat -

What's so funny about making fun of others? I don't get it. NDN's should get out of feeling victims - when there is surpression by ignorant people. Keeping ones own culture alive when it is a good one like I think NDN's are having and be aware of friends or foes in modern times. Racism in any way is destructive and stops goodness from growing. People are individuals too and not all are the same. I accept people as friends in the first place and go from there and see how they would treat me and if we get along - and if not, okay, there would be no further need to keep in touch then. Only those that are concerned about the wellbeing of others are true friends. People are having different awareness levels. Ignorant people haven't learned or understood something and they may never will. Is this now ignorant of me, giving my opinion - no matter if it's wanted or not? It's not about wearing romantic NDN things or liking them... it's about a mutual understanding in some ways... I don't think - that those who like NDN's are bending over backwards... it's just the way they are or feel in their hearts. But ya always have to distinguish between friends or foe - truth or lies - there are many "good" actors around. I don't like people that act friendly just to have some kind of advantage they want. And those who truly feel for natives don't need to bend over backwards because they just do. Don't know if anyone understands my point. Could write more but.. hm.. don't even know if it's wanted. So - that's it from me for now.

[AmigoKumeyaay]

Originally Posted by docat

No bids either. There is no accounting for the artistically challenged. But it is not just the NDN and wolves and such on velvet. Elvis and Jesus has graced the velvet medium too.

This isn't funny.

In fact this whole discussion isn't enlightening. It was meant to get a bandwagon of voices together to make fun of or laugh at the ignorance of others.

OK, I don't like something about white people too: I hate it when white people think they have to walk on eggshells around us. I really HATE that. And it is attitudes like the prevailing ones in this thread that makes them act that way because most of them are polite and most of them aren't racist and most bend over backwards to keep from offending us. And are we always as polite and non-racist??? It goes both ways.

It's like we have to go running off like weak little girls if someone wears a romanticized NDN t-shirt? Come on. Bad fashion/art isn't catching... My daughters sometimes wear goofy t-shirts that I don't even understand...so they only can wear something in their own culture?

I may be the only voice here that thinks this way, but it is not cool to make fun of others or to stereotype groups of people.

The fact that the velvet painting EXISTS proves that the mainstream culture thinks in those cliche' terms about Natives. Most owners of such "art" have never met a Native in their life.


Let me google for an image of a drunk Irishman...which is reinforced every St. Patrick's Day...an old myth about a fictional character has now evolved into a national holiday where millions of people drink Green Beer, and a drink called "Irish Car Bomb".

So, we see offensive cliche's across all ethnic groups


A couple of years ago I found a tee shirt offensive in a San Diego beach town of all places. The store staff was all from Brazil, so the offensive nature of the tee slipped past them due to language barrier.

The tee was printed "My Indian Name is: Crawling Drunk" with a small caricature of a crawling man. I pointed out to the store manager the meaning of the tee, they stopped selling them.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by docat

This isn't funny.

In fact this whole discussion isn't enlightening. It was meant to get a bandwagon of voices together to make fun of or laugh at the ignorance of others.

OK, I don't like something about white people too: I hate it when white people think they have to walk on eggshells around us. It goes both ways.

It's like we have to go running off like weak little girls if someone wears a romanticized NDN t-shirt? Come on. Bad fashion/art isn't catching... My daughters sometimes wear goofy t-shirts that I don't even understand...so they only can wear something in their own culture?

I may be the only voice here that thinks this way, but it is not cool to make fun of others or to stereotype groups of people.

I think it's rather humorous that this discussion is even happening.(thus my earlier post) Where will you draw the line for opinions ? Full bloods , half breeds , quarter bloods ,enrolled , non-enrolled ? Come on , who can have an opinion ? There are some things that people should just let roll off and not worry about. I'm almost 60 and 1/2 Cheyenne. I'm a Tradish dancer. People know I'm ndn and I get some really STUPID questions and comments !Sometimes I answer as best I can and sometimes I explain how ridiculous the question is and sometimes I just look mean at them and they leave me alone. And somewhere out there in the world is some thin-blood that thinks all their ancestors sat around in the woods with wolves ! So what ? Maybe , at some point in history, some ndn, somewhere , had a pet wolf.Most stories and myths have some basis in fact !

[docat]

Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay

The fact that the velvet painting EXISTS proves that the mainstream culture thinks in those cliche' terms about Natives. Most owners of such "art" have never met a Native in their life.


Let me google for an image of a drunk Irishman...which is reinforced every St. Patrick's Day...an old myth about a fictional character has now evolved into a national holiday where millions of people drink Green Beer, and a drink called "Irish Car Bomb".

So, we see offensive cliche's across all ethnic groups


A couple of years ago I found a tee shirt offensive in a San Diego beach town of all places. The store staff was all from Brazil, so the offensive nature of the tee slipped past them due to language barrier.

The tee was printed "My Indian Name is: Crawling Drunk" with a small caricature of a crawling man. I pointed out to the store manager the meaning of the tee, they stopped selling them.

The "fact that the velvet painting exists" does not reinforce some cliche. It reinforces that the "artist" if you want to call him that, is trying to express his nativity roots. Think about it in a serious way. Why do you think so many people insist that the family story is that there is a gr gr grandma in their history with NDN blood? They are not lying to you or trying to offend you. They were likely told that.

The relative who told them that was trying to make that connection and assuming that to be true when the DNA wasn't there. The thing is, Amigo, these white people don't even understand why they like these ancient symbols (NDNs, wolves, peace pipes, etc etc) of this land.

And why they want to stick them all in one pic, is beyond me...so it looks like the wolf is a pet...or it could be from the European/Judeo-Christian folklore of God commanding man to conquer nature, so that he has tamed the wolf? It looks so strange to us because our experiences, background, symbols and history are very different than theirs. We are born with a connection that they are trying to find.

I look at the white nativity phenomenon as their problem, not mine to set straight. I also see it for what it is, not an attempt to be offensive but to express their own roots to the land they were born in.

Now the crawling drunk t-shirt is truly offensive. I haven't seen it, but the intent of the message is to make fun of a group of people. You see, this is offensive, not a picture of an NDN and a docile looking wolf, painted by a person without a license to produce art on velvet.

Let us more wisely pick our battles. Let us also not sink to the lows of those who are offensive and make fun of a group of people.