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Old 11-18-2007, 12:37 PM   #1
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Taking photos at pow wows

Hi everyone,

I'm a professional photographer in Louisiana, and have attended and photographed six pow wows in the last couple of years.

When I arrive at a pow wow, I alway ask permission to photograph from the arena director, head man, and head woman. They've always been very supportive and helpful.

If I want to take a posing photo of someone, I ask their permission first.

The photos that I REALLY like to take are candid Grand Entry and competition photos.

What I'd like to know is your opinion of me selling my images online?

You can see my online photos at: EDITED by ~Mato

I'll be happy to respond to anything you say.

Thanks,
Mr. Pics

Last edited by Mato Winyan; 11-22-2007 at 11:36 AM.. Reason: Advertising link
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:23 PM   #2
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Welcome to the board Mr Pics.

Without having your subjects sign a release and get a portion of the sales of their image - I would say that you use the pics for your own enjoyment and leave it at that.
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:47 PM   #3
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Holy crap!
I understand that you got permission to take photos...
BUT!!!
Did you actually tell anyone that you were selling these images???
Even more important did you ask each Dancer if you could SELL there image???
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Old 11-18-2007, 05:41 PM   #4
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i always thought it was disrespectful to photograph the grand entry.... aren't you supposed to just stand and pay attention?
at least the pow-wows around here....
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:31 PM   #5
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I agree. Don't sell photos of any identifiable person without giving consideration and getting a release.
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:37 PM   #6
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I usually charge the dancers five bucks to take their picture but I just post them here in the gallery.

To sell pictures for your profit without a dancer's consent is somewhat unethical.
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:07 AM   #7
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My first reply

Thank you so much for your feedback. I hope you come back to read this reply.

By your replies, you make it sound like I am attempting to exploit my subjects; like I am making hundreds or thousands of dollars from the photos that I have taken at the pow wows.

NOT. To date, I have made ONE SALE. And that was to one of my subjects.

If you know anything about selling an image of a person commercially (e.g. to an ad agency), you would know that the first thing they ask for is a release from the subject.

That is not my intention. My intention is to give my subjects and their family members the opportunity to buy a high-quality image of themself at a very reasonable price.

If you knew me, you would know that I am very respectful of people and cultures. Which the Arena Directors and Head Men and Women must have picked up on when I asked their permission to take photos and the events, including letting me stand on the stage where the announcer sits so I could take photos throughout the events.
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:08 AM   #8
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Mr Pics,

Why ask if you're already selling them?

It's people like you cause Indians to not want their pictures taken.


Are you ready for a lawsuit?
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:55 AM   #9
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I have a friend and her children are always being asked to be photographed by people. She always asks "What are you going to do with them?"
They have seen people doing things like this and as it is stated above, it is quit unethical to sell them without their knowledge or consent.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mr Pics View Post
Thank you so much for your feedback. I hope you come back to read this reply.

By your replies, you make it sound like I am attempting to exploit my subjects; like I am making hundreds or thousands of dollars from the photos that I have taken at the pow wows.

NOT. To date, I have made ONE SALE. And that was to one of my subjects.

If you know anything about selling an image of a person commercially (e.g. to an ad agency), you would know that the first thing they ask for is a release from the subject.

That is not my intention. My intention is to give my subjects and their family members the opportunity to buy a high-quality image of themself at a very reasonable price.

If you knew me, you would know that I am very respectful of people and cultures. Which the Arena Directors and Head Men and Women must have picked up on when I asked their permission to take photos and the events, including letting me stand on the stage where the announcer sits so I could take photos throughout the events.
In the past few years I have probably taken more Pow Wow photos than most photographers. And I have done quite a bit of research in the area of photo usage.

If you are selling an image, you must have the subjects expressed permission to do so.

If you are only trying to sell them back to the person, I don't see a problem with that legally.

Selling an image to another Pow Wow dancer of another dancer could cause some problems also. I have a couple of dancers that have asked me not to publish or show any of their photos to the public.

When in doubt always err on the side of caution!
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:51 AM   #11
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This is what is on his website:

An ever-expanding collection of pow wow photos by name of photographer removed . All images 2006-2007. Name.. and are protected by United States and international copyright laws. No images may be used in any form without the written permission of Name and payment of the required usage fees. Contact Name at: Email or Phone . That being said, the main reason that I posted all of these photos is to give the subjects and their families an opportunity to purchase a reasonably-priced very high quality image of themself. ALSO, if you see an image of yourself that you want me to remove, please let me know.

It looks like his intentions are clear.

Last edited by Mato Winyan; 11-22-2007 at 11:40 AM.. Reason: To remove the name and contact info of an advertiser
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pics View Post
Hi everyone,

I'm a professional photographer in Louisiana, and have attended and photographed six pow wows in the last couple of years.

When I arrive at a pow wow, I alway ask permission to photograph from the arena director, head man, and head woman. They've always been very supportive and helpful.

If I want to take a posing photo of someone, I ask their permission first.

The photos that I REALLY like to take are candid Grand Entry and competition photos.

What I'd like to know is your opinion of me selling my images online?

You can see my online photos at: EDITED by ~Mato

I'll be happy to respond to anything you say.

Thanks,
Mr. Pics

I went back and reread your original post and nowhere do you say in the original post or own your website that you recieved releases from these dancers!
Just the prices you are charging for there PHOTOS...
Thats it, We dont know you
Lots of folks come on this website asking from simple to bizarre questions and get all kind of reactions that they were not prepared for because they dont know us, just a hollywood version...

My question to you is this:
Do you have there names and have they signed releases for there photos!
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Last edited by Mato Winyan; 11-22-2007 at 11:37 AM.. Reason: Edited for advertising link in quote
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pics View Post
Thank you so much for your feedback. I hope you come back to read this reply.

By your replies, you make it sound like I am attempting to exploit my subjects; like I am making hundreds or thousands of dollars from the photos that I have taken at the pow wows.

NOT. To date, I have made ONE SALE. And that was to one of my subjects.

If you know anything about selling an image of a person commercially (e.g. to an ad agency), you would know that the first thing they ask for is a release from the subject.

That is not my intention. My intention is to give my subjects and their family members the opportunity to buy a high-quality image of themself at a very reasonable price.

If you knew me, you would know that I am very respectful of people and cultures. Which the Arena Directors and Head Men and Women must have picked up on when I asked their permission to take photos and the events, including letting me stand on the stage where the announcer sits so I could take photos throughout the events.
Sounds like you've already made up your mind - I'm just not sure why you on here to ask the question at all.
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:54 PM   #14
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:19 AM   #15
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Okay, I'm confused here. I've had to re-read this a couple of times to make sure that I had read it the first few times right.

I agree with Singing Eagle, it sounds like you have already made up your mind and I question the same thing that he does.

Your first post did not say in anyway that you were selling them back to the persons themselves, you stated that you were going to sell them on-line, that usually means to anyone who will pay the asking price or the highest bidder, however you do it. How would you sell a Grand Entry picture to the person, there are many people (usually) in a Grand Entry? Did you tell the people when you took their picture that they could purchase it from you for a fee?

Since you weren't hired by the Pow Wow commitee to be the pow wow photographer (I have seen this a time or two), I am taking it then that you went in on your own to take these pictures in the hopes of making some money from the dancers or whomever later? Did you at least tell the people that at the time?
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:06 PM   #16
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1. If you have a signed usage release, sell anything you have to anyone you desire.
2. If you do not, "don't."

Pretty simple. If Native folk have issues, don't sign the release.

Powwows are public events and the expectation of privacy is pretty low...
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:43 AM   #17
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Mr Pics,

Why ask if you're already selling them?

It's people like you cause Indians to not want their pictures taken.


Are you ready for a lawsuit?
i'm just gonna say ditto!
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:40 PM   #19
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Hey Homalosa. I've got a pic of you from the UCLA powwow a couple years back...wanna buy it? Five bucks, no lawsuit!
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:55 AM   #20
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Mr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond reputeMr Pics has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Talking My second reply

First of all, thanks for taking the time and effort to give your responses.

It's interesting how so many of you gave a gut response without really reading what I've said: that I'm giving the people whose pictures I'm taking (and their friends and families) the opportunity to purchase a reasonably-priced, high quality image of themselves. Period.

As I said in my original post, I was asking for your opinions, not your permission.

Paul, I definitely respect everything you have to say. When you got $5. for the second picture you took, you surpassed what I've made in two years!

I also want to say that, because I've now gone to a few pow wows here in LA, I've subsequently met many of the people whose pictures I've posted in my galleries. If I don't at first, I do give them my business card, which has the link to my galleries. To date, I've never had anyone ask me to remove their photos, or asked me not to take any more photos of them.

What I'm trying to say is that, because many of the arena directors and dancers have gotten to know me, I'm welcome as a photographer.

I have nothing but respect for the time, money, and dedication that the dancers and singers put into demonstrating their skills and continuing their heritage.
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