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Old 11-25-2007, 01:16 PM   #21
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My sister went through something similar with her son and his football games. A photographer asked to shoot and asked the parents if it was ok to take the kids photos. She then gave a private link to each parent where they could purchase photos. In order to access it, the parent had to have the username and password. If you post them publicly for sale, I would think you would need to obtain permission from all the dancers involved and make it clear they are only for sale back to the specific dancer being photo'ed. Some of these dancers probably do not know they have been shot and their photos are up for sale...example the grand entries, etc. Just because an ad or headman gives you permission to take photos of them. The AD cannot give permission to you to take photos of all the people involved. If you do intend for specific dancers to have access to their photos you should set up a private site with a password and user id like most professional photographers I have used in the past. That way you can be certain that the parties purchasing those photos are indeed the ones photographed and the ones that gave you permission to do so. They can then give the access to friends and family members to purchase the photos if they choose to do so.

P.S. The amount of money you have made from this venture is irrelevant. It still doesn't make the method you using correct. And if you don't want opposing opinions, I would not have posted.
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pics View Post
First of all, thanks for taking the time and effort to give your responses.

It's interesting how so many of you gave a gut response without really reading what I've said: that I'm giving the people whose pictures I'm taking (and their friends and families) the opportunity to purchase a reasonably-priced, high quality image of themselves. Period.

As I said in my original post, I was asking for your opinions, not your permission.

Paul, I definitely respect everything you have to say. When you got $5. for the second picture you took, you surpassed what I've made in two years!

I also want to say that, because I've now gone to a few pow wows here in LA, I've subsequently met many of the people whose pictures I've posted in my galleries. If I don't at first, I do give them my business card, which has the link to my galleries. To date, I've never had anyone ask me to remove their photos, or asked me not to take any more photos of them.

What I'm trying to say is that, because many of the arena directors and dancers have gotten to know me, I'm welcome as a photographer.

I have nothing but respect for the time, money, and dedication that the dancers and singers put into demonstrating their skills and continuing their heritage.
Why do you have to charge for the photos. Is it for the cost incurred of taking photos?

I have photos of my son that were sent to him from different powwows. Even had a guy send him a high quality, 13x 20 photo AND the negative.

Wouldn't you get a better feeling if you took the photo gave it to the dancer for free as a show of appreciation. I, as probably many others, have photos of champion dancers saved on file. If they would ask for a photo, I would gladly send it to them, or give it to them when I saw them.

Then they would have to give me five bucks!!!
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:21 PM   #23
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Just a word of caution/advice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pics View Post
First of all, thanks for taking the time and effort to give your responses.

It's interesting how so many of you gave a gut response without really reading what I've said: that I'm giving the people whose pictures I'm taking (and their friends and families) the opportunity to purchase a reasonably-priced, high quality image of themselves. Period.

As I said in my original post, I was asking for your opinions, not your permission.

Paul, I definitely respect everything you have to say. When you got $5. for the second picture you took, you surpassed what I've made in two years!

I also want to say that, because I've now gone to a few pow wows here in LA, I've subsequently met many of the people whose pictures I've posted in my galleries. If I don't at first, I do give them my business card, which has the link to my galleries. To date, I've never had anyone ask me to remove their photos, or asked me not to take any more photos of them.

What I'm trying to say is that, because many of the arena directors and dancers have gotten to know me, I'm welcome as a photographer.

I have nothing but respect for the time, money, and dedication that the dancers and singers put into demonstrating their skills and continuing their heritage.



Although you may feel "welcomed"...chances are it is more of a feel of "toleration" on their behalf. I'm gonna offer some words/thoughts...just as a matter of "opinion".

First of all, you come to the site posting "replies" (and I know this may not have been your intention) that are coming across to many as "you folks don't know what you are talking about". It becomes very difficult for non-natives to communicate with natives (in general) in a way that does not send up "red-flags". While your ways of communication may not signal there in LA, it will where you are not somewhat familiar. As a spectator, I would suggest taking a "humble seat" back for a while until you are fully known and accepted by your subjects. I'd recommend getting out and about...taking an opportunity to learn more of the people outside the bubble in which you are comfortable. This will add a lot of insight to the knowledge of your "subjects".

Secondly, allow me to inform you of our "typical" routine. We'll get home from a dance and may not take out our bags/purses until the next time we dance again. Sharing with our families how someone has taken some "killer photos" of us is the last thing on our minds. Besides, to go around sharing that would mean that we as people would be self-centered. This is something we are not and do not wish to teach this to our children. My recommendation, if you really want to "get in" with our people, take the time to really learn something about our people. Don't make them change to your ways...try to incorporate theirs a bit.

Don't take these comments as attacks, but rather an opportunity to learn a little more than what you did to start with. The ball is in your court...What do you intend to do with it?

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Old 11-25-2007, 05:26 PM   #24
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Oh yeah...one more thought...

I'm not here to pick on you. I know of several non-natives who do their best to follow the ways of the native when it comes to his/her interactions with them.

They are closer around you than you believe.


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To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

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Old 11-25-2007, 09:49 PM   #25
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I recently attended the 3rd Annual Choctaw Pow Wow, at Durant, Ok., (Nov. 24, 2007). While I was video taping parts of the Pow Wow, a police officer/security person, came up and told me that I was not allowed to video tape. Thru out the Pow Wow, I seen numerous people taping, taking photos, seems like about half the people had cameras or other photo equipment, and the security people were not bothering most of them. When I returned to my rented cabin at Lake Texoma, I witnessed what I had been taping on the late night evening news, same stuff. I traveled about 250 miles to see and to tape this Pow Wow, and it seems that they could have saved me alot of time and expense, by simply stating in their advertising that they would not allow cameras or any type of video recording. I have several other Pow Wows on tape, and view alot of videos and pictures online. I think that they should either forbid all photo equipment at the door, or just allow photo/recording equipment. I don't mind being forced, by heavy handed security, to put away my equipment, but I feel that all others should have to also, with no exceptions, not even for the media, or for family members of dancers. I will not be attending another Choctaw Pow Wow, there are too many other fine Pow Wows that have no problems with pictures or video recording. I understand that there are traditionalist that forbid picture taking of any kind, like some tribes in New Mexico, but they have their policies clearly stated, and all cameras of all types are forbidden. I respect their wishes and traditions, but I fully understand that they apply to everyone, equally. Either ban them all, at the door, or don't ban them at all. If they want to ban the practice, let them put it in their flyers and advertising notices.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtbdave View Post
I recently attended the 3rd Annual Choctaw Pow Wow, at Durant, Ok., (Nov. 24, 2007). While I was video taping parts of the Pow Wow, a police officer/security person, came up and told me that I was not allowed to video tape. Thru out the Pow Wow, I seen numerous people taping, taking photos, seems like about half the people had cameras or other photo equipment, and the security people were not bothering most of them. When I returned to my rented cabin at Lake Texoma, I witnessed what I had been taping on the late night evening news, same stuff. I traveled about 250 miles to see and to tape this Pow Wow, and it seems that they could have saved me alot of time and expense, by simply stating in their advertising that they would not allow cameras or any type of video recording. I have several other Pow Wows on tape, and view alot of videos and pictures online. I think that they should either forbid all photo equipment at the door, or just allow photo/recording equipment. I don't mind being forced, by heavy handed security, to put away my equipment, but I feel that all others should have to also, with no exceptions, not even for the media, or for family members of dancers. I will not be attending another Choctaw Pow Wow, there are too many other fine Pow Wows that have no problems with pictures or video recording. I understand that there are traditionalist that forbid picture taking of any kind, like some tribes in New Mexico, but they have their policies clearly stated, and all cameras of all types are forbidden. I respect their wishes and traditions, but I fully understand that they apply to everyone, equally. Either ban them all, at the door, or don't ban them at all. If they want to ban the practice, let them put it in their flyers and advertising notices.
What you may have experienced is just a certain timing. Let me explain please. At many pow wow's there are certain dances or things that happen during that time where there is supposed to be no pictures or tapings going on, but during other parts it's okay. Usually the MC will announce it. Many times I have noticed that some people don't hear that announcement and that can cause confusion. I wasn't at this pow wow and don't know at what point you were approached, so the specifics I really can't say. But I am talking about many that I have gone to where there was an announcement made to turn of all camera's and video/recording equipment and someone didn't hear that announcement or wasn't paying attention to what the MC at the time was saying and they, too, got offended. I'm not saying for sure or not that this is WHAT did happen, just what MIGHT have happened. Like I said---I wasn't there, just a thought.

MR. Pics---you came on here asking for opinions and as far as I could tell, that's what you got. Was just our opinions, not permission or no permission. I can't give you that or tell you you can't do something, but most of the replies here seem to be based on each's opinions, and experiences of their own. You seemed to get on the defensive over opinions, at that point---most eyebrows go up and it makes people wonder, at least mine do. "Don't ask a question. You might not like the answer."
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
What you may have experienced is just a certain timing. Let me explain please. At many pow wow's there are certain dances or things that happen during that time where there is supposed to be no pictures or tapings going on, but during other parts it's okay. Usually the MC will announce it. Many times I have noticed that some people don't hear that announcement and that can cause confusion. I wasn't at this pow wow and don't know at what point you were approached, so the specifics I really can't say. But I am talking about many that I have gone to where there was an announcement made to turn of all camera's and video/recording equipment and someone didn't hear that announcement or wasn't paying attention to what the MC at the time was saying and they, too, got offended. I'm not saying for sure or not that this is WHAT did happen, just what MIGHT have happened. Like I said---I wasn't there, just a thought.

MR. Pics---you came on here asking for opinions and as far as I could tell, that's what you got. Was just our opinions, not permission or no permission. I can't give you that or tell you you can't do something, but most of the replies here seem to be based on each's opinions, and experiences of their own. You seemed to get on the defensive over opinions, at that point---most eyebrows go up and it makes people wonder, at least mine do. "Don't ask a question. You might not like the answer."
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To clarify things, they should just ban all camera equipment at certain Pow Wows, and inform the public as such.

They should concede that certains parts of a Pow Wow are not for public consumption, and should be held in private, before the Pow Wow festivities begin. Some things are just too solemn to be held out in public, and broadcast on local television stations, as well as the big screens on either end of the coliseum.

Perhaps there should be 2 types of Pow Wows, closed, and then another, open to the public. The first type, you show your CDIB before getting in, and are frisked for camera equipment before entering. The other, open to the public, less solemn, and taking pictures and having fun is allowed.

They could actually schedule things differently, have the Gourd dances and solemn ceremonies before the actual Pow Wow begins. The rest, open to the public and having a good time. I have no problem with that, gives me time to get a taco, do some shopping at the vendors, etc. I really don't appreciate standing for an hour anyway, I come to Pow Wows to relax and have a good time, not to attend solemn ceremonies, or to interfere in such ceremonies. I have no problem with persons having traditions that are solemn, and private, but they should do them in private, not charge admission, or ask for donations, put them on the big screen, or on local tv stations.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:49 AM   #28
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The problem is that some of these ceremonial or solemn times can occur even in the midst of what you (gtbdave) would call the "public" portion of the program. Things happen during a dance that aren't scheduled. Generally they happen infrequently, but they happen. But when they do happen, the MC will request that all photos and recording stop at that point. It's unplanned, unpredictable, it just happens. That's why it's important to be paying attention during the powwow. The MC isn't just there for the jokes, he also there to instruct and inform the dancers, singers, and even the audience on what is happening as well as what is inappropriate behavior at any given time.

As for your feeling that the things like the grand entry, flag songs, victory songs, vet songs, etc are not worth standing for an hour for anyway, well, don't know what to say there. Seems to me that those are the really important things going on at a powwow. Gets everything off to a good start. Seems like NASCAR and powwows are about the only places where one can go to anymore where values such as patriotism, spirtualism, and honoring our veterans still matter. To me, it's well worth the effort to give these things the appropriate respect.

Last edited by hobbs49; 11-26-2007 at 08:49 AM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:19 AM   #29
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I agree with Hobbs here, he is right. These things are very important to the way that many of us and our families do things. I'm sorry that you feel that it's not worth your time, but I have stood out in the hot sun for that whole time with a full length dress on and didn't think twice about it, it's all in perspectives. And I will do it again.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:39 AM   #30
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I agree with Hobbs here, he is right. These things are very important to the way that many of us and our families do things. I'm sorry that you feel that it's not worth your time, but I have stood out in the hot sun for that whole time with a full length dress on and didn't think twice about it, it's all in perspectives. And I will do it again.
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Standing for that long period of time is not showing respect, it is abuse.

As a veteran, I don't recall being required to stand at attention for that length of time, while in the service. Perhaps organizers of such events have never seen the movie, "Bridge on the River Kwai", where soldiers were required to stand at attention until they fainted. Obviously many who organize such events are not veterans. By the new law, by Senator Inhofe, veterans are required to stand at attention and salute during a Flag ceremony. That's a long time to be standing at attention, and to do less, would show disrespect for the Flag. I have seen such disrespect for the Flag at such ceremonies, as few veterans were standing at attention and saluting during such long ceremonies. It is more than obvious that organizers do not know proper Flag etiquette.

I have no problem with Native Americans showing respect for their traditions, religions, and showing their patriotism, but if they want proper reverence, they should hold such ceremonies in private, not a forum open to the public. To hold such ceremonies open to the public would be a sacrilege by those who organize such events.

As I have posted previously, which seem to be ignored, such ceremonies should occur prior to the actual event, and only an option for those who wish to participate in such a solemn, religious, or patriotic event. Getting back to the topic of the thread, cameras, etc., should be banned at such pre-event events.

If they feel complelled to include such events in the regular schedule of the Pow Wow, a Flag ceremony should last about 5 minutes, an invocation about 2 minutes, a song another 2 minutes, and then on with the Pow Wow. Once around the arena is sufficient for a Flag ceremony, and then a departure from the floor. When you start getting to around an hour long, standing up, ceremony, it gets to be ridiculous.

I have witnessed such ceremonies being almost an hour long, still standing, with the Flag still on display and the focus of a long ceremony, while delivering invocations, some 20 minutes long, in various languages, all of which are not in my Native American language, which I don't speak or understand anyway. Which may be fine for those that speak that language, but way too long for the audience to be standing.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:25 PM   #31
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Standing for that long period of time is not showing respect, it is abuse.

As a veteran, I don't recall being required to stand at attention for that length of time, while in the service. Perhaps organizers of such events have never seen the movie, "Bridge on the River Kwai", where soldiers were required to stand at attention until they fainted. Obviously many who organize such events are not veterans. By the new law, by Senator Inhofe, veterans are required to stand at attention and salute during a Flag ceremony. That's a long time to be standing at attention, and to do less, would show disrespect for the Flag. I have seen such disrespect for the Flag at such ceremonies, as few veterans were standing at attention and saluting during such long ceremonies. It is more than obvious that organizers do not know proper Flag etiquette.

I have no problem with Native Americans showing respect for their traditions, religions, and showing their patriotism, but if they want proper reverence, they should hold such ceremonies in private, not a forum open to the public. To hold such ceremonies open to the public would be a sacrilege by those who organize such events.

As I have posted previously, which seem to be ignored, such ceremonies should occur prior to the actual event, and only an option for those who wish to participate in such a solemn, religious, or patriotic event. Getting back to the topic of the thread, cameras, etc., should be banned at such pre-event events.

If they feel complelled to include such events in the regular schedule of the Pow Wow, a Flag ceremony should last about 5 minutes, an invocation about 2 minutes, a song another 2 minutes, and then on with the Pow Wow. Once around the arena is sufficient for a Flag ceremony, and then a departure from the floor. When you start getting to around an hour long, standing up, ceremony, it gets to be ridiculous.

I have witnessed such ceremonies being almost an hour long, still standing, with the Flag still on display and the focus of a long ceremony, while delivering invocations, some 20 minutes long, in various languages, all of which are not in my Native American language, which I don't speak or understand anyway. Which may be fine for those that speak that language, but way too long for the audience to be standing.
So now you're saying they should put a time restraint on activities that we are used to, but the general audience is not accustomed to. Maybe we should look at our watches like the Methodist do on Sunday. Many of us may not speak the language that is being spoken, but would never say to not speak in their language because I don't understand it. BTW I am also a veteran, and stand as long as need be. But I know when to sit down, not have to be told when.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:26 PM   #32
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Standing for that long period of time is not showing respect, it is abuse.

As a veteran, I don't recall being required to stand at attention for that length of time, while in the service. Perhaps organizers of such events have never seen the movie, "Bridge on the River Kwai", where soldiers were required to stand at attention until they fainted. Obviously many who organize such events are not veterans. By the new law, by Senator Inhofe, veterans are required to stand at attention and salute during a Flag ceremony.
Just to clarify gtbdave, from what I've found online regarding Sen. Inhofe's legislation, it doesn't require veteran's to stand at attention. Instead it specifically "allows" veteran's and out of uniform military members to salute the flag as opposed to putting their hand over thier heart.

"The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in one's military service," Senator Inhofe said. Veterans and service members continue representing the military services even when not in uniform. Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag. My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not."

Not meaning to go off topic, but I did want to clarify that statement as I hadn't heard of this new "stand at attention" law.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:31 PM   #33
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So now you're saying they should put a time restraint on activities that we are used to, but the general audience is not accustomed to. Maybe we should look at our watches like the Methodist do on Sunday. Many of us may not speak the language that is being spoken, but would never say to not speak in their language because I don't understand it. BTW I am also a veteran, and stand as long as need be. But I know when to sit down, not have to be told when.
Hey watch it!! I'm a Methodist Even as a kid, if the sermon hadn't started by 20 till, I knew we were running late for lunch
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:26 PM   #34
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Just to clarify gtbdave, from what I've found online regarding Sen. Inhofe's legislation, it doesn't require veteran's to stand at attention. Instead it specifically "allows" veteran's and out of uniform military members to salute the flag as opposed to putting their hand over thier heart.

"The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in one's military service," Senator Inhofe said. Veterans and service members continue representing the military services even when not in uniform. Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag. My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not."

Not meaning to go off topic, but I did want to clarify that statement as I hadn't heard of this new "stand at attention" law.
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But what are veterans supposed to do? What respectable veteran is not going to salute the flag if he is allowed to do so by law? I how long will he be required to stand at attention while saluting the Flag? You know, that a veteran, or military person, must come to attention in order to salute. Just like in saluting when Taps is played, you come to attention, hold the salute until Taps is over.

You clarified very little, a veteran must still stand at attention for the duration of a Flag ceremony, and still does not address the topic of this thread, which is taking photos at Pow Wows. If Pow Wow organizers, planners, and schedulers, want to hold certain Native American traditions in reverence, they should be made private, or conducted in a different ceremony, separate from the regular Pow Wow. A typical Pow Wow scedule might include, from 10 AM until Noon, Gourd dances, Flag ceremony, invocations, rememberances, etc., and the regular Pow Wow begin at 1 PM. In the early segment, the hardy and devout, could stand as long as they want, and cameras, etc. could be banned, while the regular Pow Wow could be less formal, with more casual fun, and cameras, and picture taking, as well as video recording would be welcomed and encouraged. They could even turn off the big screen TV's, present at most large auditoriums, for the 1st segment. A special MC could run the 1st type of ceremony, and they could have armed security, making sure no one snaps a picture.
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:30 PM   #35
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I would suggest that instead of telling everyone how to do it to satisfy your desire to film freely, that you simply show up an hour later and let those that want to come, and see, and be a part of the opening do so in a public way.

I equate it to going to the movie. The theater will say that the movie starts at 7:35, but we all know that at 7:35 the commercials start. Then there are the previews of other films playing or coming soon, then finally at 8:00 the movie starts. I sometimes choose to wait until 7:55 or 8:00 to go to the movie because I don't really care about the previews, etc. I'd suggest that you can do similar at a powwow.
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Old 11-26-2007, 07:19 PM   #36
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But what are veterans supposed to do? What respectable veteran is not going to salute the flag if he is allowed to do so by law? I how long will he be required to stand at attention while saluting the Flag? You know, that a veteran, or military person, must come to attention in order to salute. Just like in saluting when Taps is played, you come to attention, hold the salute until Taps is over.

You clarified very little, a veteran must still stand at attention for the duration of a Flag ceremony, and still does not address the topic of this thread, which is taking photos at Pow Wows. If Pow Wow organizers, planners, and schedulers, want to hold certain Native American traditions in reverence, they should be made private, or conducted in a different ceremony, separate from the regular Pow Wow. A typical Pow Wow scedule might include, from 10 AM until Noon, Gourd dances, Flag ceremony, invocations, rememberances, etc., and the regular Pow Wow begin at 1 PM. In the early segment, the hardy and devout, could stand as long as they want, and cameras, etc. could be banned, while the regular Pow Wow could be less formal, with more casual fun, and cameras, and picture taking, as well as video recording would be welcomed and encouraged. They could even turn off the big screen TV's, present at most large auditoriums, for the 1st segment. A special MC could run the 1st type of ceremony, and they could have armed security, making sure no one snaps a picture.


gtbdave,

I'm gonna use a cliche here and I really want you think about it...

"When in Rome, do as in Rome!"

These "functions" are our celebrations. You do what you can do as a participant...if you can't, then there is no disrespect. BUt, if you don't like how we do things, then don't show up.


LSS

ps - When life throws you lemons...make lemonade...then find someone with some hot grease and dough to have a party!
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To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

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Old 11-26-2007, 07:28 PM   #37
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I would suggest that instead of telling everyone how to do it to satisfy your desire to film freely, that you simply show up an hour later and let those that want to come, and see, and be a part of the opening do so in a public way.

I equate it to going to the movie. The theater will say that the movie starts at 7:35, but we all know that at 7:35 the commercials start. Then there are the previews of other films playing or coming soon, then finally at 8:00 the movie starts. I sometimes choose to wait until 7:55 or 8:00 to go to the movie because I don't really care about the previews, etc. I'd suggest that you can do similar at a powwow.

Dayumn....good example!....If I didn't know any better I'd say you were a skin too!

So tell us Hobbs...what's your story?

Inquiring minds wanna know!



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To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:41 PM   #38
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Excuse me, but something being my choice is NOT abuse. My dad was in the service and he is gone now, I stand for him and all the other's who can't stand anymore. That is MY choice, not something that I have to do other then for me and the way that I feel.

As for the photo's issue. It's this simple: none of us have the right to tell someone else how they can or can't or what they should or should not do at their event. So if someone doesn't like it---simply don't go. Another thing that you can do is ask at the gate if they allow pictures or filming, some of the people at the gates may not know, but they can point you in the direction of a person who does know. Many of these events have been going on for many years and they are done by tradition, that's not going to stop just because one person doesn't like it.

And again Hobbs, JD and LSS are right, and I've used that Cliche a few times myself. And if you know that this is going to happen and don't like it, show up later. Many other's do that.

Last edited by timmy tiger; 11-26-2007 at 10:09 PM..
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:18 PM   #39
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I would suggest that instead of telling everyone how to do it to satisfy your desire to film freely, that you simply show up an hour later and let those that want to come, and see, and be a part of the opening do so in a public way.

I equate it to going to the movie. The theater will say that the movie starts at 7:35, but we all know that at 7:35 the commercials start. Then there are the previews of other films playing or coming soon, then finally at 8:00 the movie starts. I sometimes choose to wait until 7:55 or 8:00 to go to the movie because I don't really care about the previews, etc. I'd suggest that you can do similar at a powwow.
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It's sort of like the movies, those in the movie industry admit that the customer is always wrong, and thus, they keep making the same bad movies, and people are forced to keep paying to attend the same bad movies. They even win Oscars, time after time, for the same bad movies. The people never seem to catch on, and keep paying for tickets and attending the same bad movies. It's the same with other entertainment venues, people always pay, and attend, or purchase, no matter how bad they entertainment venue may be. It's never a case that the people are right, and the people must adjust to the venue, they will force them to be entertained, and force them to spend their monies. It's like any other essential commodity, when you have the goods, people must purchase and/or attend your venue. As long as you have a monopoly, things are just fine, and you can force feed the general public.

At these venues, I do notice several members in the audience not standing for these ceremonies, and if you could read minds, you would realize that they are all thinking the same, that this is going on to the point of being ridiculous. Even camera equipment, etc., is used throughout such events, and security cannot catch everyone of them, especially with the newer high tech devices. Even after I put my equipment back in the trunk of the car, I returned to the event and saw several people using the same equipment that I was ordered by security not to use, and of course noticed that the event was being portrayed on larger than life screens on both ends of the coliseum, as well as being broadcast later on the late night news. It seems more like a case of heavy handed security, with more security than is really necessary, and an inconsistent policy when it comes to cameras, etc., and having a program that is really not designed for public consumption, and really should be private ceremonies, drawing a program out to outrageous lengths, with no time left to do the things that people actually came there for in the 1st place, like watch and record the dancers, and see who won the dance contest that was advertised, because they spend a ridiculous amount of time on ceremonies that few were interested in. Perhaps, as I suggested, these ceremonies should occur in a separate Pow Wow, at a different scheduled time, rather than force feed it to the general public, who came for a different reason. Pow Wows deliver what was not advertised, and cannot deliver what was advertised. They need to change, or become defunct, or continue to experience declining attendance, to the point of oblivion.
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:19 PM   #40
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At these venues, I do notice several members in the audience not standing for these ceremonies, and if you could read minds, you would realize that they are all thinking the same, that this is going on to the point of being ridiculous. Even camera equipment, etc., is used throughout such events, and security cannot catch everyone of them, especially with the newer high tech devices. Even after I put my equipment back in the trunk of the car, I returned to the event and saw several people using the same equipment that I was ordered by security not to use, and of course noticed that the event was being portrayed on larger than life screens on both ends of the coliseum, as well as being broadcast later on the late night news. It seems more like a case of heavy handed security, with more security than is really necessary, and an inconsistent policy when it comes to cameras, etc., and having a program that is really not designed for public consumption, and really should be private ceremonies, drawing a program out to outrageous lengths, with no time left to do the things that people actually came there for in the 1st place, like watch and record the dancers, and see who won the dance contest that was advertised, because they spend a ridiculous amount of time on ceremonies that few were interested in. Perhaps, as I suggested, these ceremonies should occur in a separate Pow Wow, at a different scheduled time, rather than force feed it to the general public, who came for a different reason. Pow Wows deliver what was not advertised, and cannot deliver what was advertised. They need to change, or become defunct, or continue to experience declining attendance, to the point of oblivion.

Actually, if you could read some of these peoples minds. At many of these events it is very clearly stated that if you cannot stand for any length of time to feel free to sit down, this is not a "Law" or a "Demand" for everyone to stand. We stand out of respect and to show our respect and honor for the people and the Warriors.

My sons girlfriend actually said it best "I didn't know what a pow wow was. You had told me about it and I had an idea of what would happen. But a Pow wow is something that you have to experience for yourself. Telling someone or showing pictures just isn't enough to really get it." And she is NOT Indian at all.

If you questioned being told to put your equipment away, then you should have asked the person who told you to. Again, I wasn't there and can't tell you the exact reasons. If there were other's, maybe that one person didn't know or those other people had gotten permission from the ones in charge to do that. Did you ever consider that? Instead of complaining to other's about something that you really don't know, maybe you should have asked the people there about it. I always ask if I'm not sure, I may not like the answer to the question--but I ask.
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