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Old 11-26-2007, 10:53 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by hobbs49 View Post
The problem is that some of these ceremonial or solemn times can occur even in the midst of what you (gtbdave) would call the "public" portion of the program. Things happen during a dance that aren't scheduled. Generally they happen infrequently, but they happen. But when they do happen, the MC will request that all photos and recording stop at that point. It's unplanned, unpredictable, it just happens. That's why it's important to be paying attention during the powwow. The MC isn't just there for the jokes, he also there to instruct and inform the dancers, singers, and even the audience on what is happening as well as what is inappropriate behavior at any given time.

As for your feeling that the things like the grand entry, flag songs, victory songs, vet songs, etc are not worth standing for an hour for anyway, well, don't know what to say there. Seems to me that those are the really important things going on at a powwow. Gets everything off to a good start. Seems like NASCAR and powwows are about the only places where one can go to anymore where values such as patriotism, spirtualism, and honoring our veterans still matter. To me, it's well worth the effort to give these things the appropriate respect.

A good example of this is if a dancer somehow drops an eagle feather. A lot of times it depends on the powwow, and how much they go through to pick it up. If it is a really busy powwow, someone will come and put a hat over the feather and stand there so it will not get stepped on. When the song ends, someone usually a veteran or spiritual person comes to pick it up, and take it out. The AD finds the person that dropped it and takes them outside the arena to handle it. It is done without disturbing the other dancers too much, and there is usually only a slight pause between songs. Such a pow wow would be so busy and crowded anyone with a camera would have to be right there to film it. Smaller pow wows would probably go through a more formal process, and in this case the MC would ask for cameras to be turned off.

I remember seeing this at a pow wow. A fancy dancer lost a feather off his rocker right at the very end of a song. He finished the song with a bow and the feather fell right out when he bent down. The announcement was made very clearly. It was repeated 3 times. And yet, some photographer pushed his way through the crowd and snapped a picture, with a flash. Security was on him, ripped the film out of the camera and escorted him off grounds.

Someone else earlier said something about public and closed pow wows. I heard it down the pipe, that back home in Minnesota, they do this. They gather during the week, and have dancing, teach the old ways to dance. I guess they would be at someones home or a gathering place, and they dance. It is done without the knowledge of the public. I for one am glad to see this. There is so much going on at pow wows, that the MC has his work cut out for him to explain it all. And yet... the information is fairly simple. When you get more into formal and private functions, you do not want to hesitate or pause your ceremony just so someone can announce to the crowd what is going on and if its appropriate or not to take pictures.

As far as frisking people going into these closed dances, well why would you want to? I may be going out on a limb on this, but if people take pictures of their weddings, or a baby being born, or a baptism, then why should we ourselves not be allowed to take a picture of something happening at one of our own events? Such a picture would not be shared with anyone except your closest family, or maybe kept for sentimental value. I guess its a subject, where one should consult the elders. The traditions we had for 2000 years now have to cope with a modern world. Things have changed, but does the modern world change our traditions or do we continue them without change? That is a question for those wiser than I.

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Old 11-27-2007, 01:51 PM   #42
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I am thinking some of us here maybe shouldn't go to powwows. The thread sounds like nothing more than a huge complaint and generalization about all powwows. I for one have never been to a powwow where grand entry lasted an hour. I do think sometimes things go overboard. The AD and committee do need to keep the public's interest in mind and make sure things roll along. They do for one support many of the powwows and the vendors that attend. That needs to be kept in mind. However, the public has also got to keep in mind there is powwow etiquette that has to be followed and need to be aware of that and be prepared to follow that for the first part of the program. If not...don't come or show up late.

As far as cameras are concerned....listen. Listen to the MC. They will anounce when you can and cannot take photos. Again, closed and open powwows are not the answer here because there are so many traditions and ways of doing things that are involved in a powwow and the dances. To say we shouldn't do those in the public...is well then not having a powwow at all for the public to enjoy. As mentioned earlier...ask. Walk up to the AD or MC and ask if this is the time to take photos. In general...inter-tribal dances are usually ok unless as mentioned earlier someone has dropped a feather. Going to a few more dances will give the public the opportunity to learn when it is ok and not ok to take photos. And don't take it personally, jeez. If you cannot handle being asked not to film....don't go.

For those who are sitting...some may not be able to stand for periods of time. That is understandable and to assume they are not standing just because the length of time...again is an assumption and generalization. I remember a day I went and was sick as a dog...I did not stand...It was not to be disrespectful. It was due to an illness.

Again if we are going to make generalizations and complain the entire time that our whole experience was wasted because we couldnt take a photo....don't go. It's a shame that the experience of going and it being worth something has come down to taking a photo. I don't know if I would want that kind of attitude at my powwow.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:50 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by PrairieTX View Post
I am thinking some of us here maybe shouldn't go to powwows. The thread sounds like nothing more than a huge complaint and generalization about all powwows. I for one have never been to a powwow where grand entry lasted an hour. I do think sometimes things go overboard. The AD and committee do need to keep the public's interest in mind and make sure things roll along. They do for one support many of the powwows and the vendors that attend. That needs to be kept in mind. However, the public has also got to keep in mind there is powwow etiquette that has to be followed and need to be aware of that and be prepared to follow that for the first part of the program. If not...don't come or show up late.

As far as cameras are concerned....listen. Listen to the MC. They will anounce when you can and cannot take photos. Again, closed and open powwows are not the answer here because there are so many traditions and ways of doing things that are involved in a powwow and the dances. To say we shouldn't do those in the public...is well then not having a powwow at all for the public to enjoy. As mentioned earlier...ask. Walk up to the AD or MC and ask if this is the time to take photos. In general...inter-tribal dances are usually ok unless as mentioned earlier someone has dropped a feather. Going to a few more dances will give the public the opportunity to learn when it is ok and not ok to take photos. And don't take it personally, jeez. If you cannot handle being asked not to film....don't go.

For those who are sitting...some may not be able to stand for periods of time. That is understandable and to assume they are not standing just because the length of time...again is an assumption and generalization. I remember a day I went and was sick as a dog...I did not stand...It was not to be disrespectful. It was due to an illness.

Again if we are going to make generalizations and complain the entire time that our whole experience was wasted because we couldnt take a photo....don't go. It's a shame that the experience of going and it being worth something has come down to taking a photo. I don't know if I would want that kind of attitude at my powwow.
_______
I believe that you have a serious reading comprehension problem. It was stated in the post that I would not be attending this Pow Wow again, and your advice is to not attend pow wows. It's really kind of a lame posts.

I never realized that people who do pow wows were such racist, against Native Americans, and also dispised veterans, as I am both a full blooded Indian, and a veteran.

My image of those who actually participate in pow wows and attend such events has been greatly altered, by my encounters on this board. Part of the problem with these pow wows is that alot of the people involved, are just plain stupid.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtbdave View Post
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I believe that you have a serious reading comprehension problem. It was stated in the post that I would not be attending this Pow Wow again, and your advice is to not attend pow wows. It's really kind of a lame posts.

I never realized that people who do pow wows were such racist, against Native Americans, and also dispised veterans, as I am both a full blooded Indian, and a veteran.

My image of those who actually participate in pow wows and attend such events has been greatly altered, by my encounters on this board. Part of the problem with these pow wows is that alot of the people involved, are just plain stupid.
No...my point was that since you have such a negative attitude toward powwows in general you shouldn't go at all. I know for one as someone who enjoys going, I'd rather not have that type of negativity there. And it's a total shame that someone like yourself has such a negative view of powwows and those who organize them. Powwows are one of few places where many natives enjoy themselves and have a chance to come and meet with other natives from the area they might not see on a regular basis. To say organizers are racist and stupid...is a racist and stupid comment in itself. I cannot believe the closed-minded, negative attitudes of some people. Again, the comments made are total generalizations and assumptions....and jeez the negativity. It must be a sad, sad life.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:10 AM   #45
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_______
I believe that you have a serious reading comprehension problem. It was stated in the post that I would not be attending this Pow Wow again, and your advice is to not attend pow wows. It's really kind of a lame posts.

I never realized that people who do pow wows were such racist, against Native Americans, and also dispised veterans, as I am both a full blooded Indian, and a veteran.

My image of those who actually participate in pow wows and attend such events has been greatly altered, by my encounters on this board. Part of the problem with these pow wows is that alot of the people involved, are just plain stupid.

Being "Full Blood" anything is really immaterial in this point. This doesn't mean that "Pow Wow Ettiquette" is an automatic understanding. I know many people on the Res in their 40's, 50's and 60's who have never been to a Pow Wow before and there is a Pow wow there 3-4 times a year every year since about the '70's. And there the Grand Entry is basically the same as you have described in your first post and the same as any other pow wow that I have been to. I've been to pow wow's as a spectator, dancer and vendor and have seen it from all three sides and I still stand and so do many (not all) of my Elders. I was with a couple who are Elders from the Rez at a pow wow once (actually several times, but this is one that I'm talking about) and during the Grand Entry the wife of the couple (she's in her 70's) stood the whole time and didn't sit down until after it was over and the audience sat down. Now, at this pow wow she was a vendor and there were high bleacher's around the circle so you really couldn't see anything---she still stood the whole time. That was her choice and out of respect.

I have other family who don't stand during the Grand Entry. But just because you don't like something or may not understand it (I don't know either way) doesn't necessarily mean that the people involved or running it are stupid. You could always start one yourself and do it differently. I have an Uncle who would do it totally different and he has said that many times.
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:53 PM   #46
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To say organizers are racist and stupid...is a racist and stupid comment in itself. I cannot believe the closed-minded, negative attitudes of some people. Again, the comments made are total generalizations and assumptions....and jeez the negativity. It must be a sad, sad life.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:08 PM   #47
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I suppose...

I just can't imagine having such a negative view toward powwows espeically being native. Living in the burbs away from everyone...it's a nice place to go and be with some native folks. I think there are those that just want to focus on the negative and never get to enjoy the overall experience.

The comments that those who orgainze powwows are racist and stupid is really offensive to me. My family does one every year...very small family get together for the day. To say that organizers despise veterans is again stupid and racist. My family works all year to make this thing go on. My uncles, aunts, parents, cousins...many who are "full-blooded" and veterans...as if that makes a difference. So we are racists and despise ourselves....how stupid. Those kind of folks are not the ones we want to waste our time, energy, and money on. I'd rather not have a person with that attitude there "enjoying" the fruit of our labor. And yes...the typical powwow etiquette is followed.

Anyways...wasn't this all about photos? :) I managed to get off track again didn't I.
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:58 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrairieTX View Post
I suppose...

I just can't imagine having such a negative view toward powwows espeically being native. Living in the burbs away from everyone...it's a nice place to go and be with some native folks. I think there are those that just want to focus on the negative and never get to enjoy the overall experience.

The comments that those who orgainze powwows are racist and stupid is really offensive to me. My family does one every year...very small family get together for the day. To say that organizers despise veterans is again stupid and racist. My family works all year to make this thing go on. My uncles, aunts, parents, cousins...many who are "full-blooded" and veterans...as if that makes a difference. So we are racists and despise ourselves....how stupid. Those kind of folks are not the ones we want to waste our time, energy, and money on. I'd rather not have a person with that attitude there "enjoying" the fruit of our labor. And yes...the typical powwow etiquette is followed.

Anyways...wasn't this all about photos? :) I managed to get off track again didn't I.
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The 1st to make offensive comments on this thread was not me, several made comments directed towards me, suggesting that as a veteran, I was not patriotic because I didn't like standing so long at Pow Wows for bogus ceremonies. Even suggesting that standing for long periods of time was a sign of extreme patriotism. Which is reallly silly, as well as suggesting that standing for long periods of time is some sort of Indian tradition. Further, directing racist remarks at me, as a full blooded American Indian.

No one on this thread was aware of the new provisions by Senator Inhofe concerning Flag etiquette, until I pointed it out to them. Few no how to properly salute, and few are even qualified to salute, during Flag ceremonies. People who organize and work on such events should at least be aware of proper Flag etiquette.

Those who claim to be traditionalist, and protecting traditions are actually not traditionalist, they are like the anti-traditionalist. The traditionalist would agree with me, that certain parts, or even all parts, of a Pow Wow are so solemn or religious, they should not be open to the public, only to tribal members. Actually, the history and traditions of the Indians are rather tragic, a castastrophe of monsterous proportions, to have a modern Pow Wow, not adhering to so many traditions is actually better, more casual, and more of a fun, or entertainment event. To have an event for commercial purposes may be a good thing, and good for Indians, but to take the event and dull it down with a large portion being religious and solemn events may not be good for the pow wows. My point on cameras, etc., is to simply have consistent policies, either ban them all, or allow them all. Separate types of events. One type of Pow Wow could be a traditional, private, type of Pow Wow for Tribal members only, another could be open to the public, being more casual, and more open to the public with less of the super patriotism, super religion, and super traditions, that are really not traditions anyway, only made up stuff by some Pow Wow committee, and certainly not representative of all Tribes. You can see that, by certain individuals repeating the same worn out tired litany of the Pow Wow committees, a form of brain washing, having little to do with American Indians, or Tribal traditions, similar to the Hollywood version of Indians of a few decades ago. If you are going to have a commercial Pow Wow, have a good one, and do it well, and the same goes for a traditional Pow Wow, and keep them separate. I don't wish to attend a traditional Pow Wow of some other Tribe, and possibly offend their traditions and religions. I would only attend such a traditional Pow Wow of my own Tribe, and I would hope that my Tribe would not hold such an event open to the public, only to Tribal members. If they should hold a commercial Pow Wow, I would hope that they would not force patriotism, religion, or traditions on the public, and not set themselves up as some authority on all patriotism, religion, or traditions. As a full blooded Indian, and a veteran, I have seen no one who can lecture me on being Indian, or on being a patriot.
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:40 PM   #49
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Well its been a while since I last posted. I leave for a few months to take the dog for a walk, play a few concerts on the road and come back to this picture taking stuff? My My arn't we the bold one Mr. Pics.

Mr. Pics,
I deal in copyright issues concerning my production company and my work on the road as a musician. I have produced many Native and non native groups in the studio. I know what I am talking about. Copyrights are put in place to protect the artist and his subjects or work. In my case it is the group I am working with, their music, and my company. In you case it would be, your work, your subject, and your photo company.

Yes you can take pictures with permission at a powwow. However the arena director does not have the final say. Yes it is protocol to ask him before taking pictures. But that is it only protocol. You still need the permission in writing from the subject to publish the work for profit. You need not make a dime off the work. Just to publish it without permission is a violation of that dancers rights without permission from the dancer.

Now let's say you take a great shot of a dancer and publish it on the web for everyone to see. "WoW that's a great shot! I can see every bead on that dancers regulia clearly. Let's see if I can duplacate it for sale at my stand" Well Mr. Pics, You have just allowed someone to violate your subject whom you have a legal responsibility to protect. Just one example of what does happen.

Now Mr. Pic, take all the photos you want at a powwow. Enjoy every shot you take. Sell all you can and make a bunch of cash hiding behind the copyright laws. Someday, you will take the ultamate shot of a dancer when emoitions are extremely high. You may find yourself with a broken camera and a little sore for a few weeks. Dancers have feelings too!!!

Sorry guys for spouting off. I just got off the road from a rock tour. I haven't had a good cup of coffee in weeks. My emoitions are a bit high right now. But this is how I feel about taking pictures for profit at a powwow.

Enough is enough! Please close the thread!
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Old 12-02-2007, 11:31 PM   #50
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The 1st to make offensive comments on this thread was not me, several made comments directed towards me, suggesting that as a veteran, I was not patriotic because I didn't like standing so long at Pow Wows for bogus ceremonies. Even suggesting that standing for long periods of time was a sign of extreme patriotism. Which is reallly silly, as well as suggesting that standing for long periods of time is some sort of Indian tradition. Further, directing racist remarks at me, as a full blooded American Indian.

No one on this thread was aware of the new provisions by Senator Inhofe concerning Flag etiquette, until I pointed it out to them. Few no how to properly salute, and few are even qualified to salute, during Flag ceremonies. People who organize and work on such events should at least be aware of proper Flag etiquette.

Those who claim to be traditionalist, and protecting traditions are actually not traditionalist, they are like the anti-traditionalist. The traditionalist would agree with me, that certain parts, or even all parts, of a Pow Wow are so solemn or religious, they should not be open to the public, only to tribal members. Actually, the history and traditions of the Indians are rather tragic, a castastrophe of monsterous proportions, to have a modern Pow Wow, not adhering to so many traditions is actually better, more casual, and more of a fun, or entertainment event. To have an event for commercial purposes may be a good thing, and good for Indians, but to take the event and dull it down with a large portion being religious and solemn events may not be good for the pow wows. My point on cameras, etc., is to simply have consistent policies, either ban them all, or allow them all. Separate types of events. One type of Pow Wow could be a traditional, private, type of Pow Wow for Tribal members only, another could be open to the public, being more casual, and more open to the public with less of the super patriotism, super religion, and super traditions, that are really not traditions anyway, only made up stuff by some Pow Wow committee, and certainly not representative of all Tribes. You can see that, by certain individuals repeating the same worn out tired litany of the Pow Wow committees, a form of brain washing, having little to do with American Indians, or Tribal traditions, similar to the Hollywood version of Indians of a few decades ago. If you are going to have a commercial Pow Wow, have a good one, and do it well, and the same goes for a traditional Pow Wow, and keep them separate. I don't wish to attend a traditional Pow Wow of some other Tribe, and possibly offend their traditions and religions. I would only attend such a traditional Pow Wow of my own Tribe, and I would hope that my Tribe would not hold such an event open to the public, only to Tribal members. If they should hold a commercial Pow Wow, I would hope that they would not force patriotism, religion, or traditions on the public, and not set themselves up as some authority on all patriotism, religion, or traditions. As a full blooded Indian, and a veteran, I have seen no one who can lecture me on being Indian, or on being a patriot.
Ok...I'm gonna propose something here to you and I am not (and I repeat "NOT") trying to stir the stink...

Dave, do possess any talents/gifts? I can ask this question because I know I have been gifted with many talents.

The reason I ask is because...if you are gifted, do you feel as though when the product of these talents/gifts come into creation that it is solely you?...hmmm...just food for thought!

Maybe we're talking about different "upbringings" here! But, please allow me to shed a little bit of knowledge....

As a young man, I understand that these things that come to me (songs) do not belong to me. They belong to the people as they are "gifts" from our Ancestors and the Creator. There have been times when I've been at a pow wow and a dancer or spectator would come up to me and ask (and I am not mentioning this to boast...but I know there are tons of other singers here on this site could "Second" this) "Man, where did you get your songs!...Those last two songs just gave me 'goose-bumps' and chills just listening to it!" Something in that song, when it was composed, had that little bit of a "spark" from all of our ancestors. And from that, a lot of people were able to relate to that song...and it made them feel good. Would this not be something "sacred"? For that individual who felt it. Just think about it please.

I agree with you in that there are some ceremonies that have no place in a pow wow. I am just getting home from one. I can not speak about the ceremony, but I was asked to sing a song and I was more than happy to oblige the "administrators" of the ceremony. The song I sang was YET another song that had come to me! There were many observations that suggested everyone there was touched by that part of the ceremony. I can not go into detail because this is not the place...BUT, a ceremonial song that touched so many people!

With this being said...can you stop me, or even your best friend, from carying out a small ceremony when we are called to do so on our own? Do you have any bearings on the relationship I, or your friend, can have with the Creator? Will you ever have any bearings?

Prayer is a ceremony between the individual and their deity (sp?). There are no restrictions when I can/cannot talk with the Creator. I hate to say it like this, but if I need to have that special moment and talk with the Creator while I am playing a game of "Phase-10", I can and will because that venue between the Creator and I is one only he and I share. I can pray for others and they for me....but no one knows what I need like the Creator and I. Yes, we sometimes have a tendency feel like we know whats better for others when we're looking in from outside the box. But when you get right down to it...we know what the real deal is...we just sometimes don't like to admit it or don't want to admit it.


No one person needs to pray for me...nor you. Sometimes it happens...when it does, those who do often speak about general terms that help to open up your own heart to yourself. It is not that individual who really knows you...they're merely a tool in the plans of the Creator. The Creator speaks through us to us.

These are just my "two-cents" worth. I do appologize to my elders for stepping out and saying what I have said. After today, I have been re-charged with my convictions and the Creator chose to speak through me.

Aho!


Jason
__________________
To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!
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