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Old 01-20-2007, 08:16 PM   #41
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blackbear that knows all about NC tuscarora

You do not know what you think. The last time I spoke to the clan mothers in NY. They wanted new good tuscarora blood to come into NY because a good many of the Tus in NY have mix in with whites. Blood getting thin up there. Please do not speak too what you think you know . Please only speak to what you can say you know. Over 600 families of tuscarora of NC stayed in NC,Sc,GA,VA. The minority left and went to be under the protection northern tribes. The homeland for 1500 years stays the same. AS far as assimulation, know one has totally, unless it is you . I see you in a modern auto, that is a form of assimulation. I will not get into a pissing conest with you , but you should not pretend to know my people and the trials we had to go thru in order to stay in the homeland and maintain any culture. If you want to speak down to any , speak to the white governement that put you and I in the same shape we are all in today. I ask you and all Native to be that first , too pull together and build peoples, nations and not tear down anything , for you just feed into the white mentality of divide and conquer. All natives of this land need to get out of the white ways and get back to native ways of working together to raise above the whites that down us . The white gov is the enemy that each other. You should please learn to respect others and just be stetled in yourself, enough to but out postive thoughts and energy then all that negive you have inside you. Please do not allow the white gov ideas win out over you or any native peoples. we ned to pull together not apart. NO ONE is the best abd or most indian / native in theis land we are all just of the land.
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Old 01-20-2007, 08:21 PM   #42
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Oh, I find it funny that you obtain your information from other Tuscarora in NC, well by your own words you say there are tuscarora in NC, but we are some how dummer than the tuscarora in NY to tuscarora Skarure ways. that in its self is interesting.

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I am not disputing who you come from so you can stop right there. I get my information from other "tuscaroras" from North Carolina and I know for fact that no shreds of culture remained among you, especially those in the Robeson area. It's been admitted by honest folk and I don't hold it against them. The culture you've learned is from others coming down there to teach it to you and it's not necessarily Tuscarora culture, and most certainly is'nt pre-migration culture. Even though I know alot of folks there like to say that they kept it, they did'nt and that's a matter of fact. You can't keep a culture in tact and lose one of the biggest parts of the culture which is the matrilineal descendancy which determines not only your nation but your clan.



Uh.. see that's not entirely true either... but I won't get into that here. It's too long a discussion.



Not exactly true either... some rememebered some words that were tuscarora, and some knew words that were cheraw, and some knew words that were catawba... there were no speakers in NC of Tuscarora in Robeson county that were known or recorded to have been speakers at least not after the late 1800's. That's why the accent/dialect there is like it is, and everyone there was recorded to have been speaking an elizabethan style when first acknowledged. And yes, all were assimilated, but that does'nt mean that they did'nt keep an indian identity... which yes I know they did.

See I know that there is a big priority there to learn the language and ya'll got tapes and books and people who went north to learn it and bring it back and teach it.... It's not like it was some big secret.





I'm not trying to take anything away except for the misconception that culture and language remained in tact there when it did not. I do not think you actually knew that because if you did, then you would have been telling an outright lie, and I don't see you as the type to tell outright lies.




I never thought you were trying to claim to be from NY ever.
The "rich culture of the Haudenosaunee" belongs to the Haudenosaunee. Sorry hon, but NC tuscaroras are not Haudneosaunee. You did'nt come north, you did not join the confederacy, you are not Haudenosaunee.

You know I keep hearing this claim that so and so descends from Chief Samuel Smith. I've yet to see anyone back that claim up. Did you get your geneology from Marilyn too???

I've tried researching Samuel Smith myself and it's impossible to trace. If you can show me where and how I'd gladly welcome to be put in my place.

And Samuel Smith was from Blount's people. If you know a little history of the Tuscarora War you would know that it was Hancock's people that died in the Tuscarora war as well as many women, children and old ones at Torhantes and other "lower" tuscarora villiages and it was Blount that did not provide help and instead, sold them out for the reservation. So they were kinda your ancestors... but I descend from those that escaped from Neoheroka so I KNOW they were mine hon.


And by the way, oneh in tuscarora, is pronounced Oh-nay. Not the oooo sound. Most words in the Tuscarora language that start with an Oooo sound designate a body part.

Now I know this came off as really smart assed but I'm not actually trying to be. It's just that no matter how I try to write information to correct misinformation it comes off that way. And I could butter it up and decorate it with candy but it still get's interpreted by people your way as being smart assed so I'm just letting you know I'm not trying to be ok?
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Old 01-21-2007, 08:58 PM   #43
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You do not know what you think. The last time I spoke to the clan mothers in NY. They wanted new good tuscarora blood to come into NY because a good many of the Tus in NY have mix in with whites. Blood getting thin up there.
ROFLMAO!! I'd like to know which of the 7 clan mothers you spoke to LOL!! I have a hard time believing you spoke to more than one, and it's probably the one who's sister is the real clan mother. She's the only one I've ever heard of to make such statements as you have said above.
If you knew our geneology as well, you could'nt make that statement. It's only been a couple generations as of late that have mixed with white. Most of everyone that married outside the nation married within the six nations peoples still. I know that's a big thing that said amongst people in NC that we are mixed alto with whites.
That's the only way they can come to terms with why we ar'ent so dark or have the same features as those there.. but it's just not as true as you'd like to believe. You can even follow the geneology online at ancestry.com to see the white people that intermarried within the last century and how many are actually descended from them and hwo many of their children ended up marrying back into the tuscaroras.


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Please do not speak too what you think you know . Please only speak to what you can say you know. Over 600 families of tuscarora of NC stayed in NC,Sc,GA,VA. The minority left and went to be under the protection northern tribes.
Ok now I KNOW who you are and I know you're one of them southern band folks. You need to quit listening to that crazy woman who leads ya'll. She's not even indian much less tuscarora herself. And I am speaking what I know.

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The homeland for 1500 years stays the same. AS far as assimulation, know one has totally, unless it is you . I see you in a modern auto, that is a form of assimulation.
YOu mean you still wear buckskins, go topless and walk everywhere? I bet living in a longhouse without an entire family and extended family is a little hard to maintain.
In other words NO SH** Sherlock.. assimilation took hold on every native american nation to an extent. But it took hold on those that remained behind to the point that some forgot which people they even came from, totally lost language, custom, form of govenrment, tradition and much more. Heck, even some of you guys have even said they forgot they were indian period.

And as before I said I was'nt holding it against you guys, but when it is said that you kept your traditions, and language and all the other stuff she mentioned, I know for FACT that is'nt true and only an uninformed/ misinformed or liar would say otherwise. I don't think she's a liar so she's simply misinformed herself. And I would'nt have called her out in public except that's where she made the statements.


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I will not get into a pissing conest with you , but you should not pretend to know my people and the trials we had to go thru in order to stay in the homeland and maintain any culture.
Ok so tell us a little about these trials. I can tell exactly who told you of these hardships and such simple by the answer you give me. I've been researching the history there for a number of years, talked with people there and I'm not stupid. I do know what I'm talking about.

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If you want to speak down to any , speak to the white governement that put you and I in the same shape we are all in today.
I was'nt speaking down to anyone. Ya'll just take it that way when you hear that you got it wrong. Whatever.

You know we may have lost that war, but we were looking to leave long before that war started. The idea was everyone was going but it did'nt happen that way, special thanks to Blount. So what we did is we left to survive. And in doing so we were able to remain as a nation, with our language and our traditional government and much of what made us who we are intact. Now if that's something bad I don't know why. And the only reason I can see anyone seeing it as bad is out of jealousy because they KNOW that it was'nt the same for them.

If your ancestors had to hide, or deny or were assimilated.. then that's what they had to do... but it does'nt mean that somehow it made them stronger as a people.. when in fact it did just the opposite.

And as far as race mixing goes... it happened. It happened alot in NC and as early on as can be remembered or recorded. No one's trying to hang that over anyone's head... so why are you trying to with this whole.. mixed with white , need new strong blood crap. No one is mixed more than the peoples that were there at the time of earliest colonization and that's VA, NC and SC. And that's just fact not an insult.
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I ask you and all Native to be that first , too pull together and build peoples, nations and not tear down anything , for you just feed into the white mentality of divide and conquer.
AND part of that pulling together is folks being honest with each other. Some of you guys have been fed rumour about this and that, and some of it outright lies. I try to tell someone the truth and I'm tearing you arpart or tearing you down? You know if you like the lies better than go live with them. Knock yourself out but don't come here to defend them like I am the liar. Lies and misinformation don't build strong indian communities and anyone can tell you that.

Quote:
All natives of this land need to get out of the white ways and get back to native ways of working together to raise above the whites that down us . The white gov is the enemy that each other. You should please learn to respect others and just be stetled in yourself, enough to but out postive thoughts and energy then all that negive you have inside you.
Now please tell me what white ways do you speak of? Like being on a computer? shopping at grocery stores? Driving cars like you told me I do (hey I'm in alaska, you sure I dont' mush the huskies? ROFLMAO!!)? This speech is so often repeated I am starting to wonder if you know what you are really trying to say. If it's the white's fault, then why is it everyone from there tends to blame it on the Tuscarora in NY for what happened to them? Or why is it we get the brunt of your frustrations?

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Please do not allow the white gov ideas win out over you or any native peoples. we ned to pull together not apart. NO ONE is the best abd or most indian / native in theis land we are all just of the land.
The white government has never had a say in who the Tuscarora recognize as members of their nation. In fact we've rebuked white interferrance in any of our affairs as long white's have stepped foot into our existance. They don't have our rolls, we do not take government money from them other than what's written into our treaties and I believe that was 2000.00 a year and so many yards of muslin.
The american indian movement started with us as well as the indian defense league and even that whole, the borders crossed us, we did'nt cross the borders saying that you are hearing the mexicans use now.

And lastly.. if you would like to discuss this further we need to move this to another area. Or we can take it to PM if you like. But I can discuss this rationally. Can you?
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Old 01-21-2007, 10:19 PM   #44
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Oh, I find it funny that you obtain your information from other Tuscarora in NC, well by your own words you say there are tuscarora in NC, but we are some how dummer than the tuscarora in NY to tuscarora Skarure ways. that in its self is interesting.

Dummer is your word... Naive is a better word. Dumber/Dumb would suggest you are'nt able to learn or incapeable mentally of learning or knowing. Even more correctly it would mean you could'nt speak.. but let's not get that technical. Naive of Skarure ways.. yes you were and in some ways still are.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:33 AM   #45
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Dummer is your word... Naive is a better word. Dumber/Dumb would suggest you are'nt able to learn or incapeable mentally of learning or knowing. Even more correctly it would mean you could'nt speak.. but let's not get that technical. Naive of Skarure ways.. yes you were and in some ways still are.
I wondered if you were smart enough to figure out what that would mean for you. You are a funny , sad person. Little girls like you try too cause trouble all over the world when they have no life of their own to be interested in.

you are the sad naive one , also one does not have to be educated to figure out our mental problems. I hope you find something in life that can make to a happy person one day . Let go of your sad , mad angry ways , I believe you could be a real human one day.
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Old 01-22-2007, 05:29 PM   #46
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What that would mean for me? What it means for me is that if you are naive of skarure ways, then that means I gotta go around correcting the wrong information that southern band likes to post all over. Or wrong information anyone puts out.

It's not my sole purpose nor something I seek out, but when it pops up where I happen to be, you bet your hetcheh I'll correct it.

I'm not some sad, naive little girl like you say. Now you DO sound like Marilyn herself. If you are, then you are in the wrong place once again. People here know me well.

I love how this small handful of you guys down there like to try to make themselves sound worldly and wise like some movie version elder telling me how I can know nothing about Skarure when I was born and raised it!

I was'nt mad until now. You have audacity to call me non human because I tell the truth? Are you one of these folks who are telling this crap to people there so generation after generation can grow up living a lie?

Is there some reason like embarrassment that you cannot be honest enough to admit to people that the culture did'nt survive there and what has been "revived" is haudenosaunee traditions, not the old tuscarora ways?

That it was'nt even the tuscarora in NY that brought you your ceremonies and dances but it was some mohawk guys with warrior society connections? Is that why you like to tell people it's always been there because if they know the truth then it makes you look less legitimate? How about the rumours that these folks had to be paid to teach it to you all?

That's the only reason I can see. I don't have respect for people who lie to make themselves look more "indian". I have a world of respect for those that are honest and won't hold it against them.
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:51 PM   #47
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What that would mean for me? What it means for me is that if you are naive of skarure ways, then that means I gotta go around correcting the wrong information that southern band likes to post all over. Or wrong information anyone puts out.

It's not my sole purpose nor something I seek out, but when it pops up where I happen to be, you bet your hetcheh I'll correct it.

I'm not some sad, naive little girl like you say. Now you DO sound like Marilyn herself. If you are, then you are in the wrong place once again. People here know me well.

I love how this small handful of you guys down there like to try to make themselves sound worldly and wise like some movie version elder telling me how I can know nothing about Skarure when I was born and raised it!

I was'nt mad until now. You have audacity to call me non human because I tell the truth? Are you one of these folks who are telling this crap to people there so generation after generation can grow up living a lie?

Is there some reason like embarrassment that you cannot be honest enough to admit to people that the culture did'nt survive there and what has been "revived" is haudenosaunee traditions, not the old tuscarora ways?

That it was'nt even the tuscarora in NY that brought you your ceremonies and dances but it was some mohawk guys with warrior society connections? Is that why you like to tell people it's always been there because if they know the truth then it makes you look less legitimate? How about the rumours that these folks had to be paid to teach it to you all?

That's the only reason I can see. I don't have respect for people who lie to make themselves look more "indian". I have a world of respect for those that are honest and won't hold it against them.
no one I know is telling a lie,if you want to speak to culture and what is lost and or found, if the NY tus that you say you are from and know so much, then do you feel less a native / Tuscarora because the white people had to give grants to fund a rebirth of your language, and there is not language projects in all the six nations to give a rebirth to languages the way one learns spanish now is being used by oneida and others, so are you going to tell all of these people that they are faults people for re-learning their culture/language. The same problems exsist in all the areas of Indian country . Look at your own home base first before you try to correct others. If all the cultrue was intact in the north why are there classes to bring about a re-growth of culture in the north. There are many projects too teach culture lost in the north so it is fine for people in the north to re-leran or learn culture biut no one else . oh I did not know that.

thank you for your time. we can agree to disagree
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Old 01-24-2007, 06:34 AM   #48
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no one I know is telling a lie,if you want to speak to culture and what is lost and or found, if the NY tus that you say you are from and know so much, then do you feel less a native / Tuscarora because the white people had to give grants to fund a rebirth of your language, and there is not language projects in all the six nations to give a rebirth to languages the way one learns spanish now is being used by oneida and others, so are you going to tell all of these people that they are faults people for re-learning their culture/language. The same problems exsist in all the areas of Indian country . Look at your own home base first before you try to correct others. If all the cultrue was intact in the north why are there classes to bring about a re-growth of culture in the north. There are many projects too teach culture lost in the north so it is fine for people in the north to re-leran or learn culture biut no one else . oh I did not know that.

thank you for your time. we can agree to disagree
What grants? And the language was dying not dead entirely. Language classes in the north are to revitalize language on a large scale. And classes in culture... you mean craft classes and such? I don't think you are meaning like Longhouse 101 do you? You can't really have classes for that...you live it or you don't. And not everyone grew up sewing clothes or doing raised beadwork or even making baskets. So yeah, there's classes for that. We ARE the 7th generation and we ARE trying to preserve and revitalize what it ours for the next 7 to come.

And no, if you re-read my posts I said I don't hold any of the loss that NC has had against them. It was'nt meant as a pissing contest but it is'nt true that they kept their ceremonies, language and culture. That was the only thing I was trying to correct.

It's not the truth that's all. And what is being taught there is'nt originally Tuscarora culture but is Haudenosaunee culture. So to have retained language, and ceremonies and dances and culture... would mean you were doing things the old way... and you are'nt.

And there's nothing to revive of it because most of the old way of the Tuscarora is gone. Very little remains and it's what we took with us when we orignally went down to NC given to us by the creator. Things like our matrilineal clan system ... You understand what I'm saying?
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:33 PM   #49
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It as been great speaking with you, again we can agree to disagree , all I know is I had four grandmothers alive at one time GRANDS and GREATS and that spoke of things of the long house, maybe not the stay way you know, they ranged in age 99 - 104 and the last on die 8 years ago at 104 they were born 1872 to 1898 . also I have pictures of gatherings and ceremonies dated 1930s of my grandfather , uncles and other relatives guess what you can see Tuscarora or at least Iroqouois designs , the iroquous flower, ETC. but if you want to atest to the world that you are the best that is fine for you. Yes the report I read explained that a great deal of the old traditions were in great danger of being lost. So you could be at a loss if not having classes.
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What grants? And the language was dying not dead entirely. Language classes in the north are to revitalize language on a large scale. And classes in culture... you mean craft classes and such? I don't think you are meaning like Longhouse 101 do you? You can't really have classes for that...you live it or you don't. And not everyone grew up sewing clothes or doing raised beadwork or even making baskets. So yeah, there's classes for that. We ARE the 7th generation and we ARE trying to preserve and revitalize what it ours for the next 7 to come.

And no, if you re-read my posts I said I don't hold any of the loss that NC has had against them. It was'nt meant as a pissing contest but it is'nt true that they kept their ceremonies, language and culture. That was the only thing I was trying to correct.

It's not the truth that's all. And what is being taught there is'nt originally Tuscarora culture but is Haudenosaunee culture. So to have retained language, and ceremonies and dances and culture... would mean you were doing things the old way... and you are'nt.

And there's nothing to revive of it because most of the old way of the Tuscarora is gone. Very little remains and it's what we took with us when we orignally went down to NC given to us by the creator. Things like our matrilineal clan system ... You understand what I'm saying?
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Old 01-25-2007, 10:28 PM   #50
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Who is trying to attest to the world they are better than anyone... you keep bringing that up that somehow I'm saying someone is better than the other or cutting anyone down.... If that's your insecurity then quit wearing it in public.

And if you have all this I'd love to see it... NO, not to PROVE exactly, but you're the first of your kind from NC that's ever made those claims and I'd really be interested in it for historical and educational reasons. I don't feel I need to say put up or shut up.. because that's not the attitude I'm taking.

It's just hard to believe the longhouse part since there was'nt one after a certain date... nor was there even a tuscarora reservation after 1803 and those lands were reverted back to the state in the 1920's. Those that remained behind after 1803 had scattered themselves around with some going to what is now Robeson and others into the Haliwa Saponis and the Ocanneechis and others into virginia.. there was'nt an actual tribe there anymore, just people, remnants. So yeah we can agree to disagree, but I do find it hard to believe they were talking about going to longhouse if they wer'ent born until 1872 and later. Also you know we did'nt have the longhouse beliefs there either.... when we went north we adopted longhouse ways (some did, some were baptist by then) and those ways were Gawiio Longhouse. But seriously.. if you have pics and such.. I would actually love to see them. You would be the first as I said and it could be educational.
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Old 01-25-2007, 10:32 PM   #51
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You know.. i'm sure there are other NC tuscarora folks who would love to see pics as well.... but please.. if they are of the redman's lodge... then forget it. Redman's lodge is'nt longhouse. And the clothes they are wearing are eastern siouan in those pics and all the redman lodges wore those outfits. See it was a fraternal organization patterned after the Masons but with an indian theme twist to it. I'm sure you've heard TOTE means tuscaroras of the east, but it really means totem of the eagle. It's all online, just type in Redman's Lodge and totem of the eagle into your browser. You'll see.
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Old 01-25-2007, 10:55 PM   #52
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I've never seen this dance done before, I look forward to seeing it at MSU in a few weeks.
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Old 02-14-2007, 07:36 PM   #53
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Last edited by indn_grl; 02-15-2007 at 12:15 PM.. Reason: I had accidently double posted
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaCotau View Post
I love to watch people smoke dance! I live on the east coast and many of the powwwows I have attended in upstate NY and Canada have smoke dancers. I have seen a few girls smoke dancing also. Is this common? Or are males usually the ones to dance this style?
Women and men dance smoke.

Many of the more conservative people frown upon women participating as its origins are tied to the war dance. I have also heard the modern smoke dance has roots in the Thunder dance. Either way same difference for women. In the 1960's, the first women started to participate with Huron Miller's dance group.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by deer_ladi View Post
What states have this dance and what main pow-wow's have this dance would like to see it performed please help me out. :thumbsup:
Without a doubt, Schemitzun (Connecticut, August )holds the championships for smoke dancing. This powwow attracts the who's who in smoke dance world.

There are two pretty good powwows in Niagara Falls (July).

Grand River Powwow (Ohsweken, ON 4th weekend in July)

Aboriginal Festival (Toronto, ON, November)

Akwesasne holds a couple as well.

These are just to name a few. Many powwows in the Ontario, NY, Michigan, Connecticut, and the North Carolina region host smoke dancing either as a special or as an actual category.

Hope to see you there.
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:01 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by chief swingin beef View Post
I know theres more than one story of origin out there but this is the one I was told by a very knowledgeble person he told me that this dance comes from our old time war dance that came from the Osage people now this dance was done before they went to war. We don't go to war no more so we use these songs in some of our other ceremonies such as our thunder and rain dance where the dancers dance this old dance. Now they use to do alot of shows along time ago and they would do this dance and show them the war dance or some people would also call it the scalp dance. They wouldn't use any ceremony songs they would either make up new songs or they took songs from some of the social dances that we do and changed the beat so it was appropriate for this dance. Some where down the line someone came up with the name smoke dance. Now when you see the dancers dancing you'll see various different styles theres old style and now a days alot of dancers are coming up with their own style which is alright because this is what was done along time ago thers no right or wrong way to do this dance its all up to the dancer! I hope this helps out.
Yup..that sounds about right to me. One thing though...isn't the scalp dance a lot like the Welcome dance? I was told that when we go through and the men and women change sides that we were supposed to duck our heads a little because a long time ago that was when the men would swing their clubs in the air and if we didn't duck we would get hit in the head. I was young when I heard this one so if I'm mistaken please correct me.

I had also heard of a story where the smoke dance was done to help clear the smoke out of the longhouse with the arm motions.

Not so long ago some people had built a small fire in a recreated bark longhouse. It had gotten pretty smoky in there so they thought they would test out the theory of the second story. Not only did the smoke dance not help clear out the smoke but to make matters worse the people had to deal with all of the dust their dancing had kicked up .

My take on the second story was that it was probably originally told by someone like my husband who is 95% full of BS. Things like this happen to him all the time. Someone asks him an honest question and instead of giving them a straight answer he expresses his ongwehonwe sense of humour, not expecting them to take him seriously. The next thing he knows its being printed and it spreads like wild fire.
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Old 02-26-2007, 11:47 PM   #57
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steps?

I am 14 yrs. old and 1/16 tsalagi. i have not started to dance yet because i havent met anybody who can help me. anyway, i have a question about dances in general. are there only certain dances that have actual steps that have to be followed, and the rest of the dances are your own steps, just so long as you keep with the drum? if i am wrong,and this is not the way it works, then please dont hesitate to correct me, i WANT to learn.

wado for reading,
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Old 03-01-2007, 04:19 AM   #58
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nativeproud, now that would depend if you are talking about just dancing smoke dance. For smoke any steps you can do are fine. Just make sure that you are in BEAT WITH THE DRUM!!!! there is nothing worse than having smokin moves but off beat. i myself prefer to watch dancers who are all about footwork. if you can see the schemitzun videos keep your eye on Cam Hill or Jordan Smith..both excellent in footwork.
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:37 AM   #59
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And to keep with the beat...it's best to learn the songs.
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Old 03-05-2007, 12:48 AM   #60
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Wado for the info guys, a few more questions though, what is acceptable to carry while doing the smoke dance, and do you have to be Iroquois in order to smoke dance? And what kind of dance cloths are required? can you wear a roach?

any and all info is greatly appreciated.
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