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Old 08-29-2006, 11:18 PM   #1
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Womens and Mens Songs....What-da-ya Think??

hey guys...wanna get a good debate going about what everyone thinks about men and womens songs! At Schemitzen two years ago and at this years Schemitzen, the singer played a slow war dance for the women. I was told that women aren't suppose to be dancin like that or to those songs! Do you all think that it's right that he should be singing those songs for the women? I think that if they want a slow song for the women it should be a womens dance song...not a war dance.

I sat there and watched, it was really silly to see these beautiful ladies, with dresses on, doing this masculine dance. Just think, what would people say if they played a duck n dive for womens traditional!

Even though it is a powwow, I don't think that we as Haudenosaunee should compromise what was taught to us. But I guess some people are willing to do that for a First Place Trophy!!!!

My opinion....What y'all think?
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Old 08-29-2006, 11:35 PM   #2
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I don't remember hearing a war song for the women, and I don't think Seldon would sing a war song for the women, there is song for women that is slow, but it's not a war song. Seldon lived on the Tonawanda rez, which is my home, and I know they would not let that slide.

But, if he did sing a war song for women, I would not agree with it. And the women should not have danced it. They should known better than to compromise their traditions for a grand prize. But sadly this is happening all over the powwow scene.

Good topic. Nya Weh.

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Old 08-30-2006, 06:30 AM   #3
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Unfortunately, sheldon did sing a slow war dance song for competition for the women on the second day. It was very much a controversy amongst the women. and yes it was silly to be a woman dancing to war dance.
Yes it is a powwow and not traditional. If you want to see something that would work for women try giving them one of those side step songs(jingle). The beat is very similar to the ladies dance. I know that a few were dancing ladies dance to it in the background(val,cassie).
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:55 AM   #4
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Powwows have a way of changing tradition.

Mark my words....

This is only the tip of the iceburg
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Old 08-30-2006, 12:57 PM   #5
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Unhappy

In wisconsin last year (2005) they had the men and women slipt the floor and sang one slow war dance song, one half and half and one fast one for everyone. Personally I had NO CLUE what the heck to do for the war dance part and I don't think the other women did either. So we were dancing a slow smoke step. like Giyowa (moccasin dance). Thats what happened there. I thought they would have done it like that juss for exhibition but they did all of the contests songs like that. men on one side of the arena and ladies on the other side. It was weird. I walked off when it was done shaking my head thinking that was the craziest thing I've done. but we were judged on it. I didn't think they would do that anyplace else. juss thought it was lack of time or whatever. N the fact that the singer wasn't on top of his game. lol
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Old 09-13-2006, 06:07 PM   #6
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Yeah...Thanks for outting my beans bvr! *L*

But that was real weird when he started to sing that slow war dance song...you could sooooo tell that we all looked at each other like we didn't know quite what to do at first....hmmm....I know that it is pow wow, but as Iroquois folks, we always want to keep the ceremonial separate from the social...From my stand, it WAS a really poor decision to pull that out.
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Old 09-15-2006, 02:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whattaheck
Even though it is a powwow, I don't think that we as Haudenosaunee should compromise what was taught to us.
right on!!
that's what i did when i heard the song come on for the ladies.. lol...
i was pretty shocked..
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:29 AM   #8
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I kind of noticed that like what WhoMe was sayin', I think that's who said it, about powwows changing tradition. I go to powwows all the time, but I've never danced, I'm usually just a vendor, a volunteer, or a spectator. But when I get on here and read I have seen a lot of threads where people were upset by seeing something at a powwow that they felt was changing or losing traditions somehow. It must be hard to keep that from happening I guess.
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:04 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whattaheck
hey guys...wanna get a good debate going about what everyone thinks about men and womens songs! At Schemitzen two years ago and at this years Schemitzen, the singer played a slow war dance for the women. I was told that women aren't suppose to be dancin like that or to those songs! Do you all think that it's right that he should be singing those songs for the women? I think that if they want a slow song for the women it should be a womens dance song...not a war dance.

I sat there and watched, it was really silly to see these beautiful ladies, with dresses on, doing this masculine dance. Just think, what would people say if they played a duck n dive for womens traditional!

Even though it is a powwow, I don't think that we as Haudenosaunee should compromise what was taught to us. But I guess some people are willing to do that for a First Place Trophy!!!!

My opinion....What y'all think?
I don't get this dance
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whattaheck
hey guys...wanna get a good debate going about what everyone thinks about men and womens songs! At Schemitzen two years ago and at this years Schemitzen, the singer played a slow war dance for the women. I was told that women aren't suppose to be dancin like that or to those songs! Do you all think that it's right that he should be singing those songs for the women? I think that if they want a slow song for the women it should be a womens dance song...not a war dance.

I sat there and watched, it was really silly to see these beautiful ladies, with dresses on, doing this masculine dance. Just think, what would people say if they played a duck n dive for womens traditional!

Even though it is a powwow, I don't think that we as Haudenosaunee should compromise what was taught to us. But I guess some people are willing to do that for a First Place Trophy!!!!

My opinion....What y'all think?
What the heck (no pun intended)? Who was the Singer??
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bird leggs
I don't get this dance
What dance do'nt you get? the Smokedance or the Old War dance?
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Old 10-12-2006, 12:32 PM   #12
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Smile as to my understanding......

i competed this year at schemitzun in womens smoke and was suprised sheldon sung a slower song. but as to my knowledge of iroquois dancing, there is a difference btwn the men's war dance and a slow song for the women. i thought the women's was part of the "shake the bush" social dance songs. which is different from a mens iroquois war dance. cause if you watch the women dont do war dance moves during that song. this is just my way of looking at it. i know sheldon is traditional and would never sing wrong songs for competition. maybe im wrong, i dont know. im just putting my two cents in here. i am wrong, can someone please explain it clearly.
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneidagirl22
i competed this year at schemitzun in womens smoke and was suprised sheldon sung a slower song. but as to my knowledge of iroquois dancing, there is a difference btwn the men's war dance and a slow song for the women. i thought the women's was part of the "shake the bush" social dance songs. which is different from a mens iroquois war dance. cause if you watch the women dont do war dance moves during that song. this is just my way of looking at it. i know sheldon is traditional and would never sing wrong songs for competition. maybe im wrong, i dont know. im just putting my two cents in here. i am wrong, can someone please explain it clearly.
The singer sang a war dance for the women, AND he also sang one in 2003. That's a clear as it gets.
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Old 10-30-2006, 02:13 PM   #14
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In my years of smoke dancing, i have heard one too many "traditional" people BASH smoke dance. how it's not right...how it's not what it's supposed to be....how some people sing ceremonial wasa:se' songs for smoke dance. i'm kind of sick of it.....they gotta look at the origins of smoke dance. i thought it was just a fun dance...you DON"T see it in the longhouse....you only see it more at the pow wows. who ever thought that the way people dance or sing could offend so many people.
As for me personally, i like it when they mix it up.. i think it's fun when they twist it around and have men dance women's songs, women dance men's songs... i LOVE switch dancing, (although i can't dance war dance for CRAP!!!) it's a social dance, i like seeing other non-iroquoians dance. but oh well, guess you can't change the way people think, eh?
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Old 10-30-2006, 05:08 PM   #15
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Old 12-04-2006, 01:17 PM   #16
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blah blah blah. If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have danced to it.

My two cents.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:23 PM   #17
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From a singers view

I'm from tonawanda, living in allegany. I am a singer and have sang smoke dance at a few different places. The way i see it is that the women should not be doing war dance. They weren't allowed to go to war, or go hunting, so what kind of story would they tell? From what i hear, sheldon won't be back at schemitzun any more. Then the so called trick songs they sing, you know where they take a long pause between verses (*Border Crossing Pow-wow*), is not really supposed to be done either. I heard a lot of complaints about that when solon pulled that. Everybody seems to be trying to sing faster and faster these days too. The original smoke dance was just a tad bit faster then moccasin dance. I may just be old school though, I mean, I was taught by my grandfathers, Hubert Buck and Richard Johnny-John. Them and Herb Dowdy, Dar Dowdy, Kyle Dowdy, Kevin Johnny-John, Mike Johnny-John, learned a bit from Bill, and Avery Jimerson Sr. as well. You ever get a chance to hear the old style smoke dance singing, then you'll know what i mean. well, i guess i'm done here. Daneho
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