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Old 05-11-2008, 02:13 AM   #41
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Okay, this is what I found. He was not actually enrolled--but he was listed on a Census card (enrollment card if you will) as a parent:

Bennett, JH (this is the only one I found) Cherokee Enrollement #4266, Enrollment type: Parent, Card No: 4266

His name is listed and a Huldah Bennett (she is also NOT on the rolls themselves) then it lists a family like this:

Abbott, Roxana-by blood--age:21--blood %--A
then there are: William Abbott age 2, James B. Abbott age 1, Roxie R. Abbott age 1. All of their blood % just has an "A" in the field.

This family is listed on the Dawes Rolls page5 and under "Blood" is shows just "AW", now I have no idea what that refers to really--but it is NOT 4/4 or "Full" which is the term used on the Dawes Roll.

I looked even further and found a Huldah Bennett age 46 on the Census Cards--but she is not on the rolls. The Census card shows that she was married to a: Joseph S. Bennett.

This is the only ones that I found.
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Old 05-11-2008, 03:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by kgirl7 View Post
@lumbeedancer

Well I heard of one case of a white man (Joseph Hardin Bennett) who paid for Cherokee citizenship. When his Cherokee wife died he didn't want to lose his citizenship so he paid for one. He was given a 4/4 blood quantum in addition to his citizenship. When he remarried, his second wife was white, yet since he was given a blood quantum all his descendants from the second marriage have blood degrees and have citizenship even though they have no Cherokee blood. They are not being disenrolled. There are many others whites who paid for membership in the nation as well and were given blood quantums.
This very well may be true (personally I don't know) and it would't surprise me if this has happenned on more than one occasion, but I would hardly class that as a whole group of non-Cherokees being forced onto their rolls, this appears to have been an individual thing that merely happened here and there.

I still say that the Cherokees have the right to remove the freedmen, in regards to the folks you mention; sounds like they might want to consider an enrollment audit as well, lol!

Last edited by lumbeedancer; 05-11-2008 at 03:46 AM..
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Old 05-11-2008, 04:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post


In my opinion the final outcome, if it becomes law, will set a precedent for all tribes in the reality of Congress severing tribal relations with the United States.
I definately agree

If this bill passes all it would take is one non-Indian idiot living with his sister (who might be married to a Native and be living on the rez with her husband) crying to their senator that some prejudice Indians wont share their wealth with him and build him a house. Before long that senator (who also might be a simple minded Swartzeneiger type jackass) could be sitting before congress arguing that they need to terminate said tribe for descriminating against one of America's good ol'boys because of his race.

This scenario (or one remarkably similar) could really happen, the bill could actually pass (with this Cherokee legislation being cited as a precedent), and said tribe could actually lose their status or be forced to service everybody and anybody regardless of their ethnicity or enrollment status!

And it wouldn't be long before these types of jackasses started popping up all over, with one nation after the other being slowly but surely stripped of their rights all-together.
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Old 05-11-2008, 05:42 AM   #44
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Thank you for the (finger?) work timmytiger. I got the facts confused but found where I got the info (after a hard google search) from the Lucy Allen case brief here: lucyallenfinalbrief

Which states:
"One adopted white family appears on the Dawes Roll in integrated among the enrollees on the “by blood roll” (see Mary E. Bennett, Cherokee Roll #10270 – census card attached, and Roxana Abbott, Cherokee by blood Roll #10273 – census card attached).

Roxana Abbott and her sister Mary Bennett were white people adopted into the Cherokee Nation. Their rights of citizenship flowed from their father, Joseph Bennett, Cherokee Roll #10269(stricken). Joseph Bennett was a white man who purchased citizenship rights in the Cherokee Nation in 1877 in accordance with Cherokee law (Constitution and Laws of the Cherokee Nation, Chapter 12, Article 15, Section 75 – see enrollment testimony attached). His name was stricken from the Dawes Roll, not because he was white, but because he died before the roll was closed. However, his children and grandchildren, all white, appear with roll numbers on the so-called “by blood” section of the Dawes Roll. Mr. Bennett’s rights were perfected under the laws of the Cherokee Nation. Neither the Dawes Commission, nor the Cherokee Nation could deny his rights including the right to pass his citizenship to his non-Cherokee white children equal to any Cherokee by blood. Not even his marriage to a white woman (Huldah Ringold) could destroy his citizenship. On the other hand, intermarried whites, whose citizenship was governed under different laws, lost their Cherokee citizenship if they divorced their Cherokee by blood spouse or if widowed, married a person not of Cherokee blood. According to the enrollment testimony, Joseph Bennett wasn’t even married to a Cherokee when he purchased rights in the Nation. Plaintiffs purpose in bringing up the facts of Joseph Bennett’s enrollment is to show that the by blood roll of Cherokee citizens was in fact, just another list of Cherokees whose citizenship rights had similar origins.

With over 50 whites appearing on the by blood section of the Cherokee roll, it is easy to see this roll is not just by blood Cherokees."

That brief also brings up one case in which there were a set of siblings two of whom were put on the Freedmen roll while the others were put on the "By Blood" roll. Now even though they have Cherokee blood their descendents (if any) could be booted out because of clerical error.

I don't agree with the U.S. government terminating the CNO or cutting off funding or forcing the tribe to make anyone a member. First off, the U.S. needs to go over all the treaties that it has broken before it starts pointing the finger at Cherokees.

However i do believe that the Cherokee Nation should look for ways to correct the errors and discrepancies that the Dawes Roll introduced. It's not true to say that the Freedmen have no Indian blood, many of them do, it's just not listed on the "All Holy" Dawes Roll.

However I'm not hopefull that any of this will happen. My prediction? I think the Freedmen will be accepted back into the tribe but they'll probably face a big backlash when they do. Either way the situation is completely screwed up.
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Old 05-11-2008, 10:29 AM   #45
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Again, you answered the issue right there yourself. They are listed as "AW"--I believe the abreviations to mean "Adopted White", at which time--ever-- were the "Freedmen" "Adopted" by the tribe? If there are those who do truely have an ancestor who was Cherokee, then that is up to the Tribal Council right there.

Many Indian Tribes have "Adopted" "Whites" on their rolls and have accepted them and their family into the tribe. But where is the proof that the man "Bought" his way onto the rolls and wasn't truely "Adopted" by the tribe because he was a good man to them and they honored him. Anyones interpretation can be placed there to make it look like anything that they want. That doesn't make it totally fact. How did he force himself on the Tribe? If he was "Adopted" then they honored him and there was no forcing of him or his descendants onto tribal rolls.

And another thing here. I've seen many "White man adopted by tribe" on some of the Rolls, and his descendants were not automatically enrolled.

Again, there's the difference--he was "Adopted" into the tribe and that takes an act of the Tribal Council, not just one person to do that (usually). So he was "Adopted", the Delaware were "Adopted", but at NO time were the "Freedman" "Adopted" by the tribe and that is what the difference is. To accuse someone (even a dead person) of "Buying" their way onto the rolls without actual proof of who they paid and how they got on--is just wrong by anyone. That is an assumption, not a fact--since it clearly states on the Rolls "AW" and there is NO blood quantium listed for either him or his descendants.
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Old 05-11-2008, 12:17 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
Unfortunately the United States Constitution sets up Congress to deal with Indian tribes.

"Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution, known as the Commerce Clause, states that Congress has the exclusive authority to manage commerce between the states, with foreign nations, and Indian tribes.
There it is, in writing.

The Cherokee should not have pricked the leviathan, who always had the ability to swat us.

I mean, yes, something was bound to occur, someday, but I would have preferred for all to have solidified their individual positions before someone kicked over the hornet's nest.

Doing so, unless the Cherokee are well and fully prepared, was maniacal: especially over such a tiny percentage of their population...

As Yoda said, "Now, matters are worse."
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:40 PM   #47
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I think this is from the 39 C.N. constitution concerning citizenship/residency....there's a court case that's interesting concerning the descendants of Shoe Boots and their citizenship status.

'Whenever any citizen shall remove with his effects out of the limits of this nation and becomes a citizen of any other government, all his rights and privileges as a citizen of this nation shall cease: provided, nevertheless, that the national council shall have power to readmit by law to all the rights of citizenship any such person or persons who may at any time desire to return to the nation on memorializing the national council for such readmission.' There was a provision precisely similar to this in the constitution of the old Cherokee Nation as it existed prior to the removal of the tribe west of the Mississippi river. The provision just quoted is from the constitution of the Cherokee Nation as now constituted.'

Stephens v. Cherokee Nation, 174 U.S. 445, 19 S.Ct. 722, 43 L.Ed. 1041 (1899)

I'll transcribe and post some of Joseph Bennet's family's testimony tomorrow. I believe he did purchase his Cherokee Nation citizeship.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:32 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post

Many Indian Tribes have "Adopted" "Whites" on their rolls and have accepted them and their family into the tribe. But where is the proof that the man "Bought" his way onto the rolls and wasn't truely "Adopted" by the tribe because he was a good man to them and they honored him. Anyones interpretation can be placed there to make it look like anything that they want. That doesn't make it totally fact. How did he force himself on the Tribe? If he was "Adopted" then they honored him and there was no forcing of him or his descendants onto tribal rolls.

And another thing here. I've seen many "White man adopted by tribe" on some of the Rolls, and his descendants were not automatically enrolled.

To accuse someone (even a dead person) of "Buying" their way onto the rolls without actual proof of who they paid and how they got on--is just wrong by anyone. That is an assumption, not a fact--since it clearly states on the Rolls "AW" and there is NO blood quantium listed for either him or his descendants.
Now, keep in mind my copy of the testimony (Cher 4265 Joseph H. Bennett) isn't a great one, but there is a page included in the application (maybe a receipt) as follows

"Office Treasurer Cherokee Nation

Received of J H Bennett an adopted citizen of the Cherokee Nation the (?) sum of five hundred dollars ($500). ___ on deposit in the office and for the purpose of securing the rights,........of a Cherokee Indian as provided for in the consitution and Laws of the Cherokee Nation Chapter 12 Article 15 and Section 75. ..........

WW Bushyhead
Treasurer Cherokee Nation"

if you wanna read for yourself, check out the NARA's microfilm Dawes Application (Card) Cher 4265 Joseph H. Bennett
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:45 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handgame_native View Post
Now, keep in mind my copy of the testimony (Cher 4265 Joseph H. Bennett) isn't a great one, but there is a page included in the application (maybe a receipt) as follows

"Office Treasurer Cherokee Nation

Received of J H Bennett an adopted citizen of the Cherokee Nation the (?) sum of five hundred dollars ($500). ___ on deposit in the office and for the purpose of securing the rights,........of a Cherokee Indian as provided for in the consitution and Laws of the Cherokee Nation Chapter 12 Article 15 and Section 75. ..........

WW Bushyhead
Treasurer Cherokee Nation"

if you wanna read for yourself, check out the NARA's microfilm Dawes Application (Card) Cher 4265 Joseph H. Bennett
Actually I don't need to read it, because I with held the amt. that I had mentioned above where a non-native person who was married to a native person and wanted an allotment could pay a certain fee and then be listed as a "Parent" and get an allotment, that was the amount and is actually listed in the terms of the Dawes Commission. This was done, not just through the Cherokee's--but through the Choctaw as well (I can give you about 4-6 names there the same thing), and the other's of the 5 civilized Tribes. So here's my point--the Dawes commission made that a ruling or allowable, but now someone is trying to use that against the Cherokee's. Doesn't that sound crazy to you? And NONE of this mans family was ever listed on the Dawes Roll's with a blood quantium (as far as I can tell)--he just got an "allotment" of land and his children were listed on the Dawes Rolls---totally within the rules and regulations of the Dawes commission. I can get the name of the book from my library that actually lists this information right from the Courts, if you would like.

And I did post the information from the Census Card of that on a post above, are you (maybe) thinking of the actual application?

Now, my question is: Did the Cherokee's keep that money--or did they have to pass it on to the Dawes commission at a later date--has anyone checked that out?
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:06 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Actually I don't need to read it, because I with held the amt. that I had mentioned above where a non-native person who was married to a native person and wanted an allotment could pay a certain fee and then be listed as a "Parent" and get an allotment, that was the amount and is actually listed in the terms of the Dawes Commission. This was done, not just through the Cherokee's--but through the Choctaw as well (I can give you about 4-6 names there the same thing), and the other's of the 5 civilized Tribes. So here's my point--the Dawes commission made that a ruling or allowable, but now someone is trying to use that against the Cherokee's. Doesn't that sound crazy to you? And NONE of this mans family was ever listed on the Dawes Roll's with a blood quantium (as far as I can tell)--he just got an "allotment" of land and his children were listed on the Dawes Rolls---totally within the rules and regulations of the Dawes commission. I can get the name of the book from my library that actually lists this information right from the Courts, if you would like.

And I did post the information from the Census Card of that on a post above, are you (maybe) thinking of the actual application?

Now, my question is: Did the Cherokee's keep that money--or did they have to pass it on to the Dawes commission at a later date--has anyone checked that out?
I was just giving you information from the family's application stating, imperatively that he did purchase his citizenship in 1877 by a Cherokee Nation law. I believe that was the point in question.


From 1877 until his death, he was a Cherokee citizen . He and his family were listed on the Cherokee Nation censuses of 1880 and 1896. Now, as far as the Dawes Commission and the feds ruling, I'm not sure what the issue is, but to the Cherokee Nation, he was a citizen.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:19 AM   #51
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That application that you quoted--IS the Dawes Commission Census card record, that's the point.The point is that what he did was Through the Dawes Commission and with the approval of the US gov as far as I know. But the dates of the Dawes application cards were done in 1898-1914--not 1877, this is what this actually is. You yourself listed that it's the Dawes application census (check out the dates above). I quoted above some quotes right from the Dawes rolls. And this is pertenant since it is through those rolls that is where the "Freedmen" actually are listed and what this stems from. And I do have the Cherokee 1880 census, I will look it up there.

The issue is is that you are saying that the Cherokee's of OK allowed him to buy an Enrollment--no not exactly--the Dawes Commission is who allowed it by their own rules and regulations and this is not a clear cut picture of someone being allowed to buy their way onto the rolls as stated above when trying to use this as a point in favor of the "Freedmen" not being dropped from the Cherokee Rolls. That is what brought this mans name up from Kgirl in the first place.
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:59 AM   #52
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Congress and Cherokees

I Have My Own Opinion...that The What So Congress...cannot Remove The Cherokee...there Are To Many Of Us...and We Are Alot Stronger.and Know The Congress..etc..moves...this Is Govtment..and The White Govtment...they Don't Know What ..we Can Do...our Ancestors..didn't Have Their Knowledge...we Get Together...they Will Run.....and Proud Of My Heritage...we Can Win.....cherokeewolf...
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Old 05-13-2008, 06:35 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handgame_native View Post
Now, keep in mind my copy of the testimony (Cher 4265 Joseph H. Bennett) isn't a great one, but there is a page included in the application (maybe a receipt) as follows

"Office Treasurer Cherokee Nation

Received of J H Bennett an adopted citizen of the Cherokee Nation the (?) sum of five hundred dollars ($500). ___ on deposit in the office and for the purpose of securing the rights,........of a Cherokee Indian as provided for in the Constitution and Laws of the Cherokee Nation Chapter 12 Article 15 and Section 75. ..........

WW Bushyhead
Treasurer Cherokee Nation"

if you wanna read for yourself, check out the NARA's microfilm Dawes Application (Card) Cher 4265 Joseph H. Bennett
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Actually I don't need to read it, because I with held the amt. that I had mentioned above where a non-native person who was married to a native person and wanted an allotment could pay a certain fee and then be listed as a "Parent" and get an allotment, that was the amount and is actually listed in the terms of the Dawes Commission. This was done, not just through the Cherokee's--but through the Choctaw as well (I can give you about 4-6 names there the same thing), and the other's of the 5 civilized Tribes. So here's my point--the Dawes commission made that a ruling or allowable, but now someone is trying to use that against the Cherokee's. Doesn't that sound crazy to you? And NONE of this mans family was ever listed on the Dawes Roll's with a blood quantum (as far as I can tell)--he just got an "allotment" of land and his children were listed on the Dawes Rolls---totally within the rules and regulations of the Dawes commission. I can get the name of the book from my library that actually lists this information right from the Courts, if you would like.

And I did post the information from the Census Card of that on a post above, are you (maybe) thinking of the actual application?

Now, my question is: Did the Cherokee's keep that money--or did they have to pass it on to the Dawes commission at a later date--has anyone checked that out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by handgame_native View Post
I was just giving you information from the family's application stating, imperatively that he did purchase his citizenship in 1877 by a Cherokee Nation law. I believe that was the point in question.


From 1877 until his death, he was a Cherokee citizen . He and his family were listed on the Cherokee Nation censuses of 1880 and 1896. Now, as far as the Dawes Commission and the feds ruling, I'm not sure what the issue is, but to the Cherokee Nation, he was a citizen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
That application that you quoted--IS the Dawes Commission Census card record, that's the point.The point is that what he did was Through the Dawes Commission and with the approval of the US gov as far as I know. But the dates of the Dawes application cards were done in 1898-1914--not 1877, this is what this actually is. You yourself listed that it's the Dawes application census (check out the dates above). I quoted above some quotes right from the Dawes rolls. And this is pertinent since it is through those rolls that is where the "Freedmen" actually are listed and what this stems from. And I do have the Cherokee 1880 census, I will look it up there.

The issue is is that you are saying that the Cherokee's of OK allowed him to buy an Enrollment--no not exactly--the Dawes Commission is who allowed it by their own rules and regulations and this is not a clear cut picture of someone being allowed to buy their way onto the rolls as stated above when trying to use this as a point in favor of the "Freedmen" not being dropped from the Cherokee Rolls. That is what brought this mans name up from Kgirl in the first place.
The thing about what the Dawes Commission was doing was dissolving our tribe and breaking up the pieces and shattering the whole thing
To every rule you will find 2 or 3 exceptions because nothing is absolute in this world except Death and Taxes
I am sure if you continue to dig that you will find 2 or 3 other examples and as Timmy said its not just the Cherokees but the others of the 5 civilized tribes that allowed this
From what I am reading that blood right stopped with that individual when they died.
No one that is alive today is a direct enrollee
So we are all descendants of Enrollees its not a perfect system but its what we are stuck with

THE Whole Point of what the Cherokees are doing is this:
Is a Federally Recognized Tribe allowed to Self Determine There own Citizens???
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:01 AM   #54
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Other tribes have disenrolled members, the Pechangas, the Redding Rancheria tribe, the Oneidas, the Chippewa Cree, etc. There has been the usual round of lawsuits, usually filed on behalf of the individuals removed from the rolls, but nothing more than that. No Congressional legistation. No Federal threats. Nothing.

So...why are the Cherokees being singled out?

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest (again) and having had the issue of race come up earlier in this thread, am I wrong to think that maybe race plays a bigger part in this than we realize?

We've all seen the double standard that takes place in this country regarding minority and civil rights issues. Dog the Bounty Hunter calls a black woman a derogatory name in private (seemingly), and Al Sharpton, et. al., are on the airwaves in no time. Don Imuss makes a racial slur, and again lots of repercussions.

But then there is the Red Eye show on Fox News making fun of us at Thanksgiving, laughing about the diseases spread amongst Indians by the white man, and there is no outcry against that.

I read all the time and hear jokes all the time about Hispanics and illegals - again no repercussions.

I might ruffle some feathers here, but I really don't think the Freedmen issue would be such an issue if it didn't involve folks of African American descent. If the folks being disenrolled by the Cherokees en masse were white or Hispanic, I really don't think this would be happening.

Despite all the years of protesting and striving for equal rights, things are still unequal even in the perception of racism and social issues. There is almost consistently a hair-trigger reaction when the civil rights of African Americans are concerned, but very little reaction when other races are slighted.

Why is that?
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:11 AM   #55
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NOA--you do have some points there and you might be right.

My thinking on this is it's because the Gov forced the "Freedmen" on the 5 Civilized Tribes through the treaty of 1866 and then the Dawes Commission enrolled them all or their descendants as fully acredited Natives, not with blood quantiums though. The other's that you have mentioned were not put on them by the gov. So the gov is seeing this as a slap in the face and that they have lost their "Control" of the Indian Tribes. Just what my opinion is here.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
NOA--you do have some points there and you might be right.

My thinking on this is it's because the Gov forced the "Freedmen" on the 5 Civilized Tribes through the treaty of 1866 and then the Dawes Commission enrolled them all or their descendants as fully acredited Natives, not with blood quantiums though. The other's that you have mentioned were not put on them by the gov. So the gov is seeing this as a slap in the face and that they have lost their "Control" of the Indian Tribes. Just what my opinion is here.
I suppose that's a big part of it too.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:32 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
the gov is seeing this as a slap in the face and that they have lost their "Control" of the Indian Tribes.
This is the way that I see it, too.

The Feds were happy to let us muddle around and pretend that we were sovereign, so long as we didn't actually try to act sovereign. (Sure, "Limited Sovereignty" was always just that, but now they are going to codify it.)

Through recognition and quantum, the Feds have always determined who is "Native," but -- now -- they are just going to move towards the outright execution of Manifest Privilege: over the disenfranchisement of a few thousand people.

The Cherokee should have let sleeping dogs alone, as we all should, until/unless we are prepared to suffer the immediate consequences of DIRECT government intervention.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:42 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
This is the way that I see it, too.

The Feds were happy to let us muddle around and pretend that we were sovereign, so long as we didn't actually try to act sovereign. (Sure, "Limited Sovereignty" was always just that, but now they are going to codify it.)

Through recognition and quantum, the Feds have always determined who is "Native," but -- now -- they are just going to move towards the outright execution of Manifest Privilege: over the disenfranchisement of a few thousand people.

The Cherokee should have let sleeping dogs alone, as we all should, until/unless we are prepared to suffer the immediate consequences of DIRECT government intervention.

Now Zeke, that's something that we can both agree on.

Although I don't look at it as the Cherokee's slapping them in their face. I look at it as the second (not the first) step of the Indian Tribes actually claiming their "Sovereign" rights. The words were always there, but the actions never came from the gov so your term of "Limited" was accurate from that stand point.

The first step was when the BIA got sued and split. Each Tribe now handles their own BIA office and all the business that goes along with it (supposedly)--let's not kid ourselves here--no matter what the office in Washington says--they still have a hand in it somewhere. So the way that I look at this is that it's the second step and was really bound to have happened somewhere along the lines, eventually.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:15 PM   #59
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whats interesting is,Diane Watson isnt standing up,writing congressional bills or demanding "justice" for the Indian People in her own state that have been dis-enrolled...but has no problem with being concerned for the freedman issue in another state...looks like her concern is limited by skin color...
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by sokoki_wolf View Post
whats interesting is,Diane Watson isnt standing up,writing congressional bills or demanding "justice" for the Indian People in her own state that have been dis-enrolled...but has no problem with being concerned for the freedman issue in another state...looks like her concern is limited by skin color...
And that is a big factor in this as well as NOA had pointed out above.
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