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Old 11-01-2012, 05:21 PM   #21
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which hopi guy, as im not interested in here say. and i thank you for responding chemist because it seem like the person that i directed my question too was going to continue to lurk my thread and simply not response


if the hopi is indeed a fallacy then all i ask provide me with some proof

im not interested in response that shows immaturity and childish and insult....it simply makes a person look like there deflecting
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:33 PM   #22
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source? why dont you look at the hopi tribal webpage....it use to say it there in big letters on front page for yrs.........and dude.....gimme a chance to get back to my computer to respond........pushy lil ******* aint ya???? that pushiness is what turns us injus off from non-injuns seeking what we hold sacred......

i tried answering as best as i can but you dont like my answer.....im sure you will find an injun to lie to you if you look hard enough.....or maybe a white person who was "entrusted to the secrets".....whatever bro.....i have no doubt you will find SOMEONE to validate your misinformation

but my position is same.....LEAVE IT ALONE.....we share our meals with you, our lands with you, our evrything with you and the last bastion of strength we have is our religion....that we aint gonna share.........good luck
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:49 PM   #23
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I'm not Hopi but I've learned a few things over the years.

1) The dominant culture understandings of intellectual property and cultural patrimony are very different from those of all the Native peoples I know. We tend to have different modes of sharing and transmission of knowledge. There is some knowledge that cannot be shared with the unauthorized without physical and metaphysical consequences. Therefore Pueblo people don't share the secrets of their religious orders.

2) It's hard to cite oral tradition and traditional teaching to the satisfaction of the dominant culture. They place great import on the printed word and grant it authority over the spoken. The upshot of which is any lies printed about us are believed before we are.

3) All you have to do is look at what happened to the Pueblo people when they met up with the Spanish Inquisition in the form of the Spanish missionaries. The terrible aftermath should be reason enough for them to be unwilling to share, without invoking indigenous ethics. Any outsider who says they have intimate knowledge of Pueblo religion is telling tales.

4) I have never encountered a Native culture which provides a path to conversion or seeks converts. The missionary impulse is by and large absent from traditional religions. So, any system which creates an integrative practice or mythology is suspect.


Sorry, no footnotes. Just one Native, scientist woman's 47's years of life speaking :)

Last edited by OLChemist; 11-01-2012 at 05:52 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:51 PM   #24
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all this tough guy computer talk you can kill

and again can YOU tell ME what my ethnic background is , NO because i havent told you. so you can kill that noise and stop assuming and once again like i said before all that insult and dissing doesnt do anything


is it getting me my answer, NO

it really make you look childish you need to get better control of your emotions and work on your heart chakra

its also a sad bit tasteless on your part you respond AFTER someone has gave me my answer

so furthermore your answer and rebuttal is going to anything if it containing insults and ad hominems (it is you that turn this thread into a shouting match with your response) you should take note to the other posters who respond and in what manner they respond


one thing like like to point out also is if you sincerely feel that you are correct why not started a website to ensure that the information that you hold is put out there to refuted such claims . because just like there this thread on pow wow there many more elsewhere

Last edited by Toolbox; 11-01-2012 at 06:34 PM..
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
I'm not Hopi but I've learned a few things over the years.

1) The dominant culture understandings of intellectual property and cultural patrimony are very different from those of all the Native peoples I know. We tend to have different modes of sharing and transmission of knowledge. There is some knowledge that cannot be shared with the unauthorized without physical and metaphysical consequences. Therefore Pueblo people don't share the secrets of their religious orders.

2) It's hard to cite oral tradition and traditional teaching to the satisfaction of the dominant culture. They place great import on the printed word and grant it authority over the spoken. The upshot of which is any lies printed about us are believed before we are.

3) All you have to do is look at what happened to the Pueblo people when they met up the Spanish Inquisition in the form of the Spanish missionaries. The terrible aftermath should be reason enough for them to be unwilling to share, without invoking indigenous ethics. Any outsider who says they have intimate knowledge of Pueblo religion is telling tales.

4) I have never encountered a Native culture which provides a path to conversion or seeks converts. The missionary impulse is by an large absent from traditional religions. So, any system which creates an integrative practice or mythology is suspect.


Sorry, no footnotes. Just one Native, scientist woman's 47's years of life speaking :)
and i thank you for you sincerity

and i appreciate your response
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:06 PM   #26
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you can lock this thread as i found my answer
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:25 PM   #27
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your kidding me right?

i was trying to save you from embarrasment if you ever encounter a real hopi family....you are NOT welcome to our religion and its rude to ask

as far as responding i dont sit at the computer all day responding at your command....i got stuff to do from time to time

and YOU are the one who is hostile....not me guy....why cant you wrap your head around the fact that if you are not pueblo our ways arent available to you....

chakra? you gotta be white.....most injuns dont know or care what chakra is....much less be able to spell it

how many times do us skins have to tell these people to back off? they just dont get it....what is missing from their cultures that they have to come seek answers in ours????they buy a few peices of jewlery and think its their right to produce kokopelli and tawa underwear....what would they think if i mad jesus christ toiletpaper? you wanna know about the hopi? why dont you go to hopi land during a PUBLIC event....eat some chili....buy some trinkets....eat some piki bread, take home some horno bread and shut up and OBSERVE.................it would be rude for you to do otherwise


thanks for all the skins who co-signed for me on this
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:37 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
your kidding me right?

i was trying to save you from embarrasment if you ever encounter a real hopi family....you are NOT welcome to our religion and its rude to ask

as far as responding i dont sit at the computer all day responding at your command....i got stuff to do from time to time

and YOU are the one who is hostile....not me guy....why cant you wrap your head around the fact that if you are not pueblo our ways arent available to you....

chakra? you gotta be white.....most injuns dont know or care what chakra is....much less be able to spell it

how many times do us skins have to tell these people to back off? they just dont get it....what is missing from their cultures that they have to come seek answers in ours????they buy a few peices of jewlery and think its their right to produce kokopelli and tawa underwear....what would they think if i mad jesus christ toiletpaper? you wanna know about the hopi? why dont you go to hopi land during a PUBLIC event....eat some chili....buy some trinkets....eat some piki bread, take home some horno bread and shut up and OBSERVE.................it would be rude for you to do otherwise


thanks for all the skins who co-signed for me on this
yeah your right and wrong as i know Lakotas who know what the chakra what you dont is generalizing, lmao

as it relates to this once again, im not white please understand this (i think you honestly want me to be as it helps for your "rebuttal"), i never told you what my ethnic background is so merely saying im this or that is assumption. it is you who answer in a manner that can be seen and read as being antagonistic and i honestly dont wish to hear your sob story about twinkies (as you put it and ive notice that noone else but you refer to them as such) as the Native American simply isnt the only race that has been f*cked over by the Caucasian(true they are culture bandits imo). check the history records of the black man, check the Spaniards


do ya research brotherman

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:50 PM   #29
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Smile

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Originally Posted by Smooth_operator View Post
yeah your right and wrong as i know Lakotas who know what the chakra what you dont is generalizing, lmao

as it relates to this once again, im not white please understand this (i think you honestly want me to be as it helps for your "rebuttal"), i never told you what my ethnic background is so merely saying im this or that is assumption. it is you who answer in a manner that can be seen and read as being antagonistic and i honestly dont wish to hear your sob story about twinkies (as you put it and ive notice that noone else but you refer to them as such) as the Native American simply isnt the only race that has been f*cked over by the Caucasian. check the history records of the black man, check the Spaniards


do ya research brotherman
i know lakotas too.....what does that prove? they look at me as extended family so i end up getting my toilets busted and all my food eaten everytime they visit.....ok....maybe youre a black twinkie, or an asian twinkie....or even a wagonburnin exploiter twinkie enabler twinkie from another tribe....im sorry for being the ONLY person to use this term :)..you aint pueblo or you wouldnt be asking rude questions.......we deal with this stuff daily....then afterwards people like you spread the misinformation around and there ends up with plethora after plethora of non-pueblos telling us they know more about us then we do ourselves.....sheesh all this defensifeness because you dont like my answer which is the answer of a tradition of religious PRIVACY?

and i dont need to do research...im a skin EVERYDAY.....so i can skip the reference book and how-to guide
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
i know lakotas too.....what does that prove? they look at me as extended family so i end up getting my toilets busted and all my food eaten everytime they visit.....ok....maybe youre a black twinkie, or an asian twinkie....or even a wagonburnin exploiter twinkie enabler twinkie from another tribe....im sorry for being the ONLY person to use this term :)..you aint pueblo or you wouldnt be asking rude questions.......we deal with this stuff daily....then afterwards people like you spread the misinformation around and there ends up with plethora after plethora of non-pueblos telling us they know more about us then we do ourselves.....sheesh all this defensifeness because you dont like my answer which is the answer of a tradition of religious PRIVACY?

and i dont need to do research...im a skin EVERYDAY.....so i can skip the reference book and how-to guide


lol smh black twinkie, asian twinkie (assuming once again lmao) please remember it is you who are making these comments. who say i was going to spread info

why do i care if you know lakotas? (deflecting once again)


who says that my question was rude PAY ATTENTION YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE TAKING IT THAT WAY, people have came in this thread and told me that i was wrong or they didnt agree yet you still over there having a hissy fit(WHY??) and you taking what i say in terms of the caucasin and what i say about the other races out of context and putting your spin on it (strawman) to fit your premise.

all that talk about it "isnt for you and leave it alone" pisses me off because i ask the question in sincerity it is you who took it as such


mile all the arguing you doing isnt helping anything AT ALL. PERIOD.

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Old 11-01-2012, 08:09 PM   #31
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What the hey. This will probably start a fight and get me called nasty names related to my gender. Not the first time. Time for some decolonization 101.


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Originally Posted by Smooth_operator View Post
is it getting me my answer, NO

I don't know what your ethnic background is, but the above tells me that your mindset is one with the colonizer. Read what you wrote: "getting me my answer." You are asserting ownership rights to our knowledge. Demanding the nothing stand between you and "your" knowledge. Our men have a long history of fighting against outsiders asserting ownership, defending the people's integrity. How could a Native man fail to rise to the defense of his kin?

Am I playing semantics? You bet your sweet Columbus statue. But semantic content is part of how language conveys meaning.

In both out cultures, sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the answer to a question that should not be asked is silence.

Did you really mean to send that message?
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:20 PM   #32
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lol smh black twinkie, asian twinkie (assuming once again lmao) please remember it is you who are making these comments. who say i was going to spread info

why do i care if you know lakotas? (deflecting once again)




who says that my question was rude PAY ATTENTION YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE TAKING IT THAT WAY, people have came in this thread and told me that i was wrong or they didnt agree yet you still over there having a hissy fit(WHY??) and you taking what i say in terms of the caucasin and what i say about the other races out of context and putting your spin on it (strawman) to fit your premise.

all that talk about it "isnt for you and leave it alone" pisses me off because i ask the question in sincerity it is you who took it as such


mile all the arguing you doing isnt helping anything AT ALL. PERIOD.
get it through your head....you are not entitled to an answer.......your insistance that its your right is invasion of cultural privacy
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:43 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Smooth_operator View Post
lol smh black twinkie, asian twinkie (assuming once again lmao) please remember it is you who are making these comments. who say i was going to spread info

why do i care if you know lakotas? (deflecting once again)


who says that my question was rude PAY ATTENTION YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE TAKING IT THAT WAY, people have came in this thread and told me that i was wrong or they didnt agree yet you still over there having a hissy fit(WHY??) and you taking what i say in terms of the caucasin and what i say about the other races out of context and putting your spin on it (strawman) to fit your premise.

all that talk about it "isnt for you and leave it alone" pisses me off because i ask the question in sincerity it is you who took it as such


mile all the arguing you doing isnt helping anything AT ALL. PERIOD.
I think your entire demeanor is rude, pushy and condescending.

If you wish to behave as a stereotypical white person (like a keshagesh) that wants us to tell him all the meanings behind our beliefs then knocks your boots off. Just don't expect us to reply like we're some sort of new age wonder NDN with a fancy name like whitefeather.

I live for the day that people like you figure out your own beliefs and leave ours alone.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:40 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I think your entire demeanor is rude, pushy and condescending.

If you wish to behave as a stereotypical white person (like a keshagesh) that wants us to tell him all the meanings behind our beliefs then knocks your boots off. Just don't expect us to reply like we're some sort of new age wonder NDN with a fancy name like whitefeather.

I live for the day that people like you figure out your own beliefs and leave ours alone.
Or a chimook here.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:13 AM   #35
3 down and 1 to go! lol
 
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smh....this is too much...
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:34 AM   #36
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I love these kinds of threads. They bring out the sadist in me.



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Old 11-02-2012, 11:18 AM   #37
Ugh. As. If.
 
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yo pass me some of that popcorn lol
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:36 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
So why did you skip over the two skins response and ask a white guy for input? What does he know other than what HE read in a book?

What you have actually done, is be disrespectful to the indigenous people. You weren't given the answer you wanted to hear by indigenous people, but now you have accepted the anglo's answer as truth. You will now use that as being 'truth'.

From mhs: "i know one thing....twinkies would rather hear religious talk from white people representing tribes telling them what they want to hear than hear the actual tribe telling them that those people are wrong and look elsewhere our culture is for US not for YOU"

Congratulations op. You have now identified yourself as one who...

asks for some insight

gets none from Native people

sees a response from a complexion challenged

then ask the anglo for more information.



agree or disagree
Let's not be some quick to jump to judgement. The response you are citing was in reply to the first person that posted on this thread. We should give him a chance to respond to all the posts before judging him.

I know that past experience leads us all to assume how things will go.

But when someone comes here asking, let's try to explain first.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:44 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Smooth_operator View Post
which hopi guy, as im not interested in here say. and i thank you for responding chemist because it seem like the person that i directed my question too was going to continue to lurk my thread and simply not response


if the hopi is indeed a fallacy then all i ask provide me with some proof

im not interested in response that shows immaturity and childish and insult....it simply makes a person look like there deflecting
Now that I have posted asking people to give you a chance, let me respond to you.

First I believe you should be able to come on this forum and ask questions without being attacked, name called, etc. I try to stop that when I can.

However you also have to realize that you came on to a forum dedicated to the discussion of a culture different than yours.

When asking questions about other people's culture, you have to do so with respect and sensitivity.

Many people feel entitled to information about Native culture. But much of what you are asking is very personal and private.

The respect must go both ways.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:37 PM   #40
Ugh. As. If.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G View Post
Let's not be some quick to jump to judgement. The response you are citing was in reply to the first person that posted on this thread. We should give him a chance to respond to all the posts before judging him.

I know that past experience leads us all to assume how things will go.

But when someone comes here asking, let's try to explain first.
although jd did jump the gun, he called it right and he did raise some good points. funny how some people get demanding then cry foul when the replies aren't sugar coated. i want to experiment and try something other than speaking plainly, let's see how this works...
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