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Old 07-25-2013, 02:59 PM   #81
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Anything wrong with expressing love and tender feelings toward people's good ways one likes? If they could be friends or not is a different thing but they support natives by wanting to set a sign of love because they seem to know about the dreadful past happenings done upon natives.
I see nothing wrong with "expressing love and tender feelings toward people".........and having a healthy respect toward the differences between them with an appreciation as to the uniqueness of varying groups of people.With that said I think it is important to keep in mind that we are all in the best position to be "friends"with one another (across cultures and ethnicities and various subgroups) by simply being ourselves and letting others be themselves.
When we do this we allow each group of people to learn from their own "dreadful past" (your words) and might I add the joyous experiences of the life journey as well.Only then can we all begin to learn from each other............about ourselves.

surprisingly the thing we should be learning about others who seem different (because they express through different means by way of culture) is that they are not so much different from ourselves afterall. I think only then the "us and them" comes into ~we.

**You germanwoman have much to offer about yourself. You live in Germany and are among that culture. Many on this board probably have some German blood and may be interested in some knowledge that you may have about what it's like to live there. I am curious as to the types of music and entertainment and sub cultures found in your area. It would make an interesting conversation.
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:14 AM   #82
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I see nothing wrong with "expressing love and tender feelings toward people".........and having a healthy respect toward the differences between them with an appreciation as to the uniqueness of varying groups of people.With that said I think it is important to keep in mind that we are all in the best position to be "friends"with one another (across cultures and ethnicities and various subgroups) by simply being ourselves and letting others be themselves.
When we do this we allow each group of people to learn from their own "dreadful past" (your words) and might I add the joyous experiences of the life journey as well.Only then can we all begin to learn from each other............about ourselves.

surprisingly the thing we should be learning about others who seem different (because they express through different means by way of culture) is that they are not so much different from ourselves afterall. I think only then the "us and them" comes into ~we.

**You germanwoman have much to offer about yourself. You live in Germany and are among that culture. Many on this board probably have some German blood and may be interested in some knowledge that you may have about what it's like to live there. I am curious as to the types of music and entertainment and sub cultures found in your area. It would make an interesting conversation.
Just let's say: to learn from their own past - present and future

**Yes, well - why not? As long as you also would like to share similar things from within your vicinity. But should we have a different thread for that? Or has this got anything to do with Hopi Prophecies thread? Just asking...
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:51 PM   #83
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Only a few may know more than others - some fear they are not welcome anyway to get to know and understand the NDN people better to present a more true picture to those that are respectfully interested in NDN life. So they just go by what little they ~know~ passing that on to non NDN's, and the rest just mocks around.
ok....again.....what are you smoking when you post answers like this talking in circles stuff?
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:02 AM   #84
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ok....again.....what are you smoking when you post answers like this talking in circles stuff?
I don't need to smoke anything to know that english is NOT my first language and that I am not very good at expressing it better or more understandable - never learned english in school - picked it up while living in England. I better stop posting my thoughts in future.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:27 PM   #85
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I don't need to smoke anything to know that english is NOT my first language and that I am not very good at expressing it better or more understandable - never learned english in school - picked it up while living in England. I better stop posting my thoughts in future.
Englisch ist nicht meine Muttersprache, aber ich scheine entweder in der Lage sein, effektiv zu kommunizieren auf dieser Website. Ich habe ein paar Mal angeboten, um alles, was Sie ins Englische möchten, wenn Sie Probleme versuchen, einen klaren Gedanken zu vermitteln übersetzen. Aber, Sie scheinen zu wollen, um die Sprache Schwierigkeiten card Anspruch, wenn Sie über die Entsendung Müll gecallt.

Es gibt ein paar von uns auf dieser Website, die lesen und schreiben können Deutsch. Ich spreche auch Russisch, Arabisch, Französisch, Tutchone, Haida und Tlingit.

Du bist nicht der erste Deutsche, die Website zu besuchen, und ich habe jedes Mal, dass ein deutscher zeigt sich mit ihren Problemen zu helfen Übersetzung angeboten.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:48 AM   #86
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und / oder Sie können schreiben Sie Ihre Gedanken in Deutsch und Englisch zu haben Google Text übersetzen für Sie zugeschnitten und fügen .... nur so ein Gedanke ....
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:06 AM   #87
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und / oder Sie können schreiben Sie Ihre Gedanken in Deutsch und Englisch zu haben Google Text übersetzen für Sie zugeschnitten und fügen .... nur so ein Gedanke ....
Gut dachte Muttly! Ich finde Leute, die hinter dem "lost in translation" Ausrede verstecken, sehr langweilig.
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I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:26 AM   #88
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und wie! und gibt es wirklich keine Entschuldigung dafür, nicht die Zeit nehmen, um einen sinnvollen Beitrag zu schreiben anstatt Wandern entfernt auf einem Gedankengang ....
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:53 AM   #89
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Englisch ist nicht meine Muttersprache, aber ich scheine entweder in der Lage sein, effektiv zu kommunizieren auf dieser Website. Ich habe ein paar Mal angeboten, um alles, was Sie ins Englische möchten, wenn Sie Probleme versuchen, einen klaren Gedanken zu vermitteln übersetzen. Aber, Sie scheinen zu wollen, um die Sprache Schwierigkeiten card Anspruch, wenn Sie über die Entsendung Müll gecallt.

Es gibt ein paar von uns auf dieser Website, die lesen und schreiben können Deutsch. Ich spreche auch Russisch, Arabisch, Französisch, Tutchone, Haida und Tlingit.

Du bist nicht der erste Deutsche, die Website zu besuchen, und ich habe jedes Mal, dass ein deutscher zeigt sich mit ihren Problemen zu helfen Übersetzung angeboten.
Nein danke - ich habe keine Probleme. Wenn schon über Probleme gesprochen wird, so scheint mir, dass Andere welche haben mit mir. Fehler macht jeder, dafür sind wir alle Menschen, aber da meine Absichten - wenn ich überhaupt irgendwelche habe, gut sind und ich weder mir noch anderen Menschen schaden möchte, so habe ich kein schlechtes Gewissen, meine Meinung zu sagen, aber es gibt ja immer wieder Menschen, die überall etwas dran auszusetzen haben oder Fehler suchen müssen - ohne dem können diese Leute wohl nicht. Nicht mein Problem. Und - ich nehme an, der Text da oben wurde mit einem Übersetzungsprogramm übersetzt? Auf jeden Fall arbeitet das Programm dann sehr ungenau - schade eigentlich.

Ich freue mich, dass Sie all diese Sprachen sprechen können. Andere Sprachen zu können ist nie verkehrt, glaube ich. Ich liebe Sprachen.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:33 AM   #90
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Nein danke - ich habe keine Probleme. Wenn schon über Probleme gesprochen wird, so scheint mir, dass Andere welche haben mit mir. Fehler macht jeder, dafür sind wir alle Menschen, aber da meine Absichten - wenn ich überhaupt irgendwelche habe, gut sind und ich weder mir noch anderen Menschen schaden möchte, so habe ich kein schlechtes Gewissen, meine Meinung zu sagen, aber es gibt ja immer wieder Menschen, die überall etwas dran auszusetzen haben oder Fehler suchen müssen - ohne dem können diese Leute wohl nicht. Nicht mein Problem. Und - ich nehme an, der Text da oben wurde mit einem Übersetzungsprogramm übersetzt? Auf jeden Fall arbeitet das Programm dann sehr ungenau - schade eigentlich.

Ich freue mich, dass Sie all diese Sprachen sprechen können. Andere Sprachen zu können ist nie verkehrt, glaube ich. Ich liebe Sprachen.
So then, we won't be hearing your excuses about how you don't speak English as a first language anymore? You were offered help to assist you in your translation problems. Your words again just to remind you...

Quote:
I don't need to smoke anything to know that english is NOT my first language and that I am not very good at expressing it better or more understandable - never learned english in school - picked it up while living in England. I better stop posting my thoughts in future.
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I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:08 PM   #91
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So then, we won't be hearing your excuses about how you don't speak English as a first language anymore? You were offered help to assist you in your translation problems. Your words again just to remind you...
- even some germans don't understand me when I talk in german. I guess it's not always a language problem rather than a way of thinking. Either people understand what I am saying or they don't. If they do, fine - if they don't - doesn't bother me, trying to explain what I mean probably wouldn't help much if someone doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand - what I am talking about. Living in my own little world - huh? Translation problems I don't have since I think in english when I speak, I don't translate from german thinking into english. I either think in english or german. Don't know how authentic my english way of thinking is but - well, it's my way.
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Old 08-01-2013, 07:32 PM   #92
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good job....i dont know much german just a few phrases...like sauerkraut, brunshweiger, sieg heil, gedzunheight.......i probably spelled them wrong
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:05 AM   #93
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good job....i dont know much german just a few phrases...like sauerkraut, brunshweiger, sieg heil, gedzunheight.......i probably spelled them wrong
Those german words you know are the typical words many know and it always leads back to the worst and evil aera of thousands of german years - only nazis short for national socialists - use that phrase sieg heil - but germans did not just live in those years of war. I think I found out that my family name is polish origin... since my fathers family came from that area. My fathers family was kind and loving - my mother's family - except my grandpa and my grandma's halfsister were - hard and not loving.

And I come after my father. Now - I do not like Sauerkraut, it tastes sour and what's that good for? Gesundheit is the proper spelling - whishing someone well being when he/she sneezes.

Wie geht es dir, ich hoffe gut means how are you, I hope you're well.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:13 PM   #94
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Those german words you know are the typical words many know and it always leads back to the worst and evil aera of thousands of german years - only nazis short for national socialists - use that phrase sieg heil - but germans did not just live in those years of war. I think I found out that my family name is polish origin... since my fathers family came from that area. My fathers family was kind and loving - my mother's family - except my grandpa and my grandma's halfsister were - hard and not loving.

And I come after my father. Now - I do not like Sauerkraut, it tastes sour and what's that good for? Gesundheit is the proper spelling - whishing someone well being when he/she sneezes.

Wie geht es dir, ich hoffe gut means how are you, I hope you're well.
Wie geht es dir, ich hoffe gut means how are you, I hope you're well.

Now that's interesting. thank you
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:59 PM   #95
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Wie geht es dir, ich hoffe gut means how are you, I hope you're well.

Now that's interesting. thank you
Okay, if you like to learn a bit of german language, you're welcome to ask me - that goes for everyone here.

Now, since you seem to like it, another german sentence...

Ich liebe Euch alle - means - I love you all.

In this case Euch written with a capitol letter E is a polite way adressing a group of people while writing - euch - is just the regular way of adressing a group.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:54 PM   #96
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what is the twinkie obsession with "pahana"? dont they realize it doesnt mean them? and not all pueblos even agree with all the stories? many versions are different and its altogether possible that and even LIKELY that "pahana" was made up by whites.........they infilterated their brand on our religions for so long now that someti mes us pueblos disagree on some of the details......thanks "white brothers" for injecting yourselves into whatyou cant understand and making it more difficult for us to decipher
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:45 AM   #97
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what is the twinkie obsession with "pahana"? dont they realize it doesnt mean them? and not all pueblos even agree with all the stories? many versions are different and its altogether possible that and even LIKELY that "pahana" was made up by whites.........they infilterated their brand on our religions for so long now that someti mes us pueblos disagree on some of the details......thanks "white brothers" for injecting yourselves into whatyou cant understand and making it more difficult for us to decipher
This kind of stuff seems to make people feel special to think they are accounted for and held in high regard by another culture....even if that's not really the case. So yeah, they tend keep looking for versions of the story until they find one that suits them (despite the source) Put simply, they need to feel acceptance that puts their differences in a good light.

I wouldn't put all this behavior on white people though...I see the same crap all the time here in Japan with stories of the [insert race here] samurai and whatnot. I won't even get started with the spiritual hippytards here. I've seen far too many shows on national TV here about "indian powerstones" and "indian powerspots" because it's in fashion. (Most Japanese don't even seem to understand their own culture so their approaches to clueless romanticizing other cultures are probably off your scale if you're offended by what the media does in the US)
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:39 PM   #98
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and from the Hopi Nation.....
Cultural Theft and Misrepresentation
From the official website of the Hopi Nation
8-22-02
www.hopi.nsn.us
Over the years many individuals, both Hopi and non-Hopi, have purposely distorted and exploited Hopi spirituality and the Hopi way of life to suit their own ends. The reasons for this misrepresentation vary as much as the people who engage in it. The most common motives, however, are notoriety, profit, or political manipulation. Irrespective of the intent, it all results in an unwanted intrusion by outsiders on the Hopi way of life.

Many, and perhaps most, Hopi people believe that religion is a private matter and that there is already too much information available to non-Hopis about Hopi spirituality. A great deal of knowledge that may have been shared with guests as a courtesy or as privileged information, even in moments of undeserved trust, has been published. These published accounts, be they accurate or misleading, have been misused to replicate Hopi ceremonies and spirituality for profit. In many cases, information has been altered in a way that ignores any spiritual context and religious significance.

Beware of any individual or organization using the Hopi name to promote spiritual workshops, seminars or other "religious" activities. It is not a Hopi cultural value to try and convert non-Hopi people to Hopi religious beliefs or ways. And, sharing religious knowledge for profit is unacceptable to most Hopi people.

Hopi religion is so complex that it is impossible for any one Hopi, traditional group or political faction within Hopi, to know it entirely. Hopi culture and religion as a whole is multifaceted, but there are also variations from village to village, and much of the Hopi ceremonial cycle is secret even among the Hopi. Specific clans and societies are responsible for different aspects of the ceremonial cycle, which in its entirety, make a complimentary whole.

Beware, then, of any one person professing to be a traditional spokesperson for the Hopi or even a "traditional' Hopi. No one person can possibly speak for all Hopi people. Some who profess to do so do not practice the beliefs of Hopi religion or participate in its priesthoods.

The following list includes non-Hopi individuals who are known to profit from Hopi spirituality and culture. Contrary to their claims, none of these individuals are Hopi (either through birth or adoption), represent the Hopi, or speak for any Hopi "elders." We urge you not to donate any money to their causes, purchase their literature, or attend their gatherings.

Katherine Cheshire. Claims Hopi adoption into the Roadrunner/Greasewood clans. Uses the "Hopi" names of Dep See Mana or Dee See Mana. Founder of Touch the Earth Foundation, which offers programs and workshops on Native spirituality. Cheshire is popular among those who take it upon themselves to save what they perceive to be the remnants of dying cultures in great need of preserving.

Warren Goodman. Claims to be the Pahana of Hopi legend and claims possession of the sacred stone tablets that are key elements of Hopi oral tradition. Goodman solicits money by selling "Armageddon Insurance," using the following message: "By sending us your name and the names of your family or loved ones, plus a small donation to the cause, you buy yourself a kind of security that goes beyond this world. Very soon, you may be glad you did. Suggested donations: Self $11, Couple $22, Family $33, Large Organization $777 (per 100 members). Send check or money order along with the names of those you'd like to insure."

The 19,000 lbs of petrified wood that Goodman has hauled around the country for the past couple of decades building his "medicine wheels" (which are not part of Hopi tradition or spirituality) and looking for people to convince that he is the true savior of the Hopi people, does not fit the description of the sacred Hopi tablets so faithfully preserved in Hopi oral tradition.

Thomas Mails. Author of "Hotevilla: Hopi Shrine of the Covenant, Microcosm of the World" and "The Hopi Survival Kit." It is reported that Mails has a history of befriending aging Indians, declaring them the last true "traditional" of their tribe and announcing that he has been "chosen" to speak for the Tribe and spread their "truth." The so-called "traditional" that Mails allegedly collaborated with in his Hopi books was the late Dan Evehema ("Little Dan," "Chief Dan," "The Eldest Elder"). No Hopi will attest to Evehema having any authority or special knowledge to speak on behalf of any faction of Hopi.

Mails' books on Hopi claim to reveal sacred Hopi knowledge and proclaim Mails as the chosen messenger of these revelations. However, Mails knows only what a few people have revealed to him, and most of this is out-of-context, incomplete, and inaccurate.

When appealed to by the Hopi Tribe to stop exploiting Hopi culture, Mails ignored the requests and implied that the Hopis who object to his teachings are not true Hopis and are not behaving in accordance with true Hopi ways. He feigns surprise that Hopis would censure him for "preserving" the true Hopi belief system that is apparently, according to Mails, in great danger of being lost forever. He doesn't understand that Hopis are capable of preserving their own culture, and they certainly don't need outsiders to show them how to do it.

Excerpted from: "Disrespect for Native American Religion and Culture and Its Disruptive Effects on the Harmony and Wellness of Indian Communities" by William M. Havens. Paper presented at the "Dialogue with the Hopis: Cultural Copyright and Research Ethics" Conference, August 22, 1995. Paper revised April 15, 1997.

Roy Steevenz. Also calls himself Roy Little Sun. Hosts world-wide workshops and seminars on Hopi spirituality. Steevenz was permanently excluded from the Hopi Reservation in 1995. Steevenz has become quite popular in certain circles in Europe.

Christopher Walker. Claims to have permission from the Hopi to perform numerous Native ceremonies, not all of which are Hopi. Charges people to attend genuine Sundances, or charges for performances of his own Sweats and ceremonies.
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:19 PM   #99
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I see nothing wrong with "expressing love and tender feelings toward people".........and having a healthy respect toward the differences between them with an appreciation as to the uniqueness of varying groups of people.With that said I think it is important to keep in mind that we are all in the best position to be "friends"with one another (across cultures and ethnicities and various subgroups) by simply being ourselves and letting others be themselves.
When we do this we allow each group of people to learn from their own "dreadful past" (your words) and might I add the joyous experiences of the life journey as well.Only then can we all begin to learn from each other............about ourselves.

surprisingly the thing we should be learning about others who seem different (because they express through different means by way of culture) is that they are not so much different from ourselves afterall. I think only then the "us and them" comes into ~we.

**You germanwoman have much to offer about yourself. You live in Germany and are among that culture. Many on this board probably have some German blood and may be interested in some knowledge that you may have about what it's like to live there. I am curious as to the types of music and entertainment and sub cultures found in your area. It would make an interesting conversation.
Yes, it could make an interesting conservation but what I found out is, that in every country and language some people are likeminded. And all them like minded are one group that belong to each other as long as they are upright and honest in their believes. In Germany people like music. Most young people like all sorts of music, some older too, some are stuck in the 70s subcultures may be stuck in all sorts of cultural engagements and music, which is not bad. Germany seems to be flat open for everyone. Can be good, can be bad, I don't know. Some like NDN's but mainly stuck in author Karl May's views, generally it seems Germany is completely capitalistic oriented which can be good or bad, depending on which side one is living. Okay,, I am not sure what else to say. This actually has nothing to do with Hopi prophesy. Germany the country I was born but ancestors stem from Poland, Russia or Tschien... what can I say?
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:22 PM   #100
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and from the Hopi Nation.....
Cultural Theft and Misrepresentation
From the official website of the Hopi Nation
8-22-02
www.hopi.nsn.us
Over the years many individuals, both Hopi and non-Hopi, have purposely distorted and exploited Hopi spirituality and the Hopi way of life to suit their own ends. The reasons for this misrepresentation vary as much as the people who engage in it. The most common motives, however, are notoriety, profit, or political manipulation. Irrespective of the intent, it all results in an unwanted intrusion by outsiders on the Hopi way of life.

Many, and perhaps most, Hopi people believe that religion is a private matter and that there is already too much information available to non-Hopis about Hopi spirituality. A great deal of knowledge that may have been shared with guests as a courtesy or as privileged information, even in moments of undeserved trust, has been published. These published accounts, be they accurate or misleading, have been misused to replicate Hopi ceremonies and spirituality for profit. In many cases, information has been altered in a way that ignores any spiritual context and religious significance.

Beware of any individual or organization using the Hopi name to promote spiritual workshops, seminars or other "religious" activities. It is not a Hopi cultural value to try and convert non-Hopi people to Hopi religious beliefs or ways. And, sharing religious knowledge for profit is unacceptable to most Hopi people.

Hopi religion is so complex that it is impossible for any one Hopi, traditional group or political faction within Hopi, to know it entirely. Hopi culture and religion as a whole is multifaceted, but there are also variations from village to village, and much of the Hopi ceremonial cycle is secret even among the Hopi. Specific clans and societies are responsible for different aspects of the ceremonial cycle, which in its entirety, make a complimentary whole.

Beware, then, of any one person professing to be a traditional spokesperson for the Hopi or even a "traditional' Hopi. No one person can possibly speak for all Hopi people. Some who profess to do so do not practice the beliefs of Hopi religion or participate in its priesthoods.

The following list includes non-Hopi individuals who are known to profit from Hopi spirituality and culture. Contrary to their claims, none of these individuals are Hopi (either through birth or adoption), represent the Hopi, or speak for any Hopi "elders." We urge you not to donate any money to their causes, purchase their literature, or attend their gatherings.

Katherine Cheshire. Claims Hopi adoption into the Roadrunner/Greasewood clans. Uses the "Hopi" names of Dep See Mana or Dee See Mana. Founder of Touch the Earth Foundation, which offers programs and workshops on Native spirituality. Cheshire is popular among those who take it upon themselves to save what they perceive to be the remnants of dying cultures in great need of preserving.

Warren Goodman. Claims to be the Pahana of Hopi legend and claims possession of the sacred stone tablets that are key elements of Hopi oral tradition. Goodman solicits money by selling "Armageddon Insurance," using the following message: "By sending us your name and the names of your family or loved ones, plus a small donation to the cause, you buy yourself a kind of security that goes beyond this world. Very soon, you may be glad you did. Suggested donations: Self $11, Couple $22, Family $33, Large Organization $777 (per 100 members). Send check or money order along with the names of those you'd like to insure."

The 19,000 lbs of petrified wood that Goodman has hauled around the country for the past couple of decades building his "medicine wheels" (which are not part of Hopi tradition or spirituality) and looking for people to convince that he is the true savior of the Hopi people, does not fit the description of the sacred Hopi tablets so faithfully preserved in Hopi oral tradition.

Thomas Mails. Author of "Hotevilla: Hopi Shrine of the Covenant, Microcosm of the World" and "The Hopi Survival Kit." It is reported that Mails has a history of befriending aging Indians, declaring them the last true "traditional" of their tribe and announcing that he has been "chosen" to speak for the Tribe and spread their "truth." The so-called "traditional" that Mails allegedly collaborated with in his Hopi books was the late Dan Evehema ("Little Dan," "Chief Dan," "The Eldest Elder"). No Hopi will attest to Evehema having any authority or special knowledge to speak on behalf of any faction of Hopi.

Mails' books on Hopi claim to reveal sacred Hopi knowledge and proclaim Mails as the chosen messenger of these revelations. However, Mails knows only what a few people have revealed to him, and most of this is out-of-context, incomplete, and inaccurate.

When appealed to by the Hopi Tribe to stop exploiting Hopi culture, Mails ignored the requests and implied that the Hopis who object to his teachings are not true Hopis and are not behaving in accordance with true Hopi ways. He feigns surprise that Hopis would censure him for "preserving" the true Hopi belief system that is apparently, according to Mails, in great danger of being lost forever. He doesn't understand that Hopis are capable of preserving their own culture, and they certainly don't need outsiders to show them how to do it.

Excerpted from: "Disrespect for Native American Religion and Culture and Its Disruptive Effects on the Harmony and Wellness of Indian Communities" by William M. Havens. Paper presented at the "Dialogue with the Hopis: Cultural Copyright and Research Ethics" Conference, August 22, 1995. Paper revised April 15, 1997.

Roy Steevenz. Also calls himself Roy Little Sun. Hosts world-wide workshops and seminars on Hopi spirituality. Steevenz was permanently excluded from the Hopi Reservation in 1995. Steevenz has become quite popular in certain circles in Europe.

Christopher Walker. Claims to have permission from the Hopi to perform numerous Native ceremonies, not all of which are Hopi. Charges people to attend genuine Sundances, or charges for performances of his own Sweats and ceremonies.
www.hopi.nsn.us <---- this website does not exists or at least it ill not show up when I click at it. I know nothing about Hopi real life truth.
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