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Old 12-14-2009, 11:39 PM   #61
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Tribes do choose who they want to belong. They set the requirments. The us goverment does not. I'll Let Zeke say the rest. He does it so much more eloquently.
Oh, I believe Watchesmany did a fine job of laying out significant parts of my overall, strategic, argument.

To my knowledge, the only folks concerned about enacting such a self-empowerment system are those that make $$$ by virtue of acknowledging the conqueror's ability to define us via quantum. My prime example, as always, are hang-around-the-fort types like KiowaKat.

If the government were not around to define them as special or protected, they wouldn't be, and they'd be forced to compete on a level playing field, which they cannot. Receiving metaphorical commodities IS their game, whilst limiting us all to lapdog status.

When we eradicate the influence of such plaintive whiners, we'll -- finally -- grow up.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:08 AM   #62
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LOL--oh that's funny, but I put a bull in with a pink cow and he suddenly turned and was um well looked like he was flat out going for her right there on the screen. I about died laughing. I couldn't believe it. And that's nothing compared to what my turkey and turtle do and my son's even seen it.LMAO It's too funny. Then today two of my reindeer were eyeballing the reindeer hedge I have. Yeah, okay I have some pretty frisky animals on my farm.
Ok...I have a turtle and a turkey and never seen them getting their freak on - what do you feed your critters over there?
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:14 AM   #63
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Ok...I have a turtle and a turkey and never seen them getting their freak on - what do you feed your critters over there?

LOL--I have no clue. Maybe I shouldn't have pet them.LOL


I should be sleeping right now, but I just can't sleep.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:33 AM   #64
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Well, Big Chief, I would disagree with the argument with the example that the Cherokee Nation defaults to the Dawes List, which (depending on the account) is either the second or third list compiled by the federal gvt to qualify this or that person who happened to be living in a particular dwelling as "full blood". The Keetoowah Band says no less than 1/4 --from the Dawes List--. Nice that so many chase after a list they didn't make.
So Jackson issues an decree of 'Thanks for taking care of the place until we got here, please sign the guest book' and that makes an Indian? 101,000 names, and that's all of them? That's it? No whites lived on Indian lands and were adopted into Indian families ever? No blacks?
And I'm not picking on the Cherokee for fun, they're just a really good example. As I see it, they told us who was an Indian and who wasn't and we believed it. Now someone has to find their name on the list or they're not "real". How, self-deprecating. I thought we were Nations, why are we acknowledging the decisions and records of a government that has decided to rule us? Why can't the tribes say "screw you, our tribe is who we choose, totally independent of the BIA?"
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:19 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by watchesmany View Post
Well, I don't know how contentious you want to get here. How about: I'm of the opinion that the whole idea of the tribes acknowledging the quanta system is taking on the mantle of a system that our ancestors never used. The best thing the tribes could do to further their own interests would be to "adopt" anyone who came along that met their requirements for language and ceremony and knowledge and totally deny the BIA's authority by being able to track "ancestry". Making a tribe a people of their choosing rather than just defaulting to what the government told us qualified as a "Full blood" in the first place. Thoughts?
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Originally Posted by watchesmany View Post
Well, Big Chief, I would disagree with the argument with the example that the Cherokee Nation defaults to the Dawes List, which (depending on the account) is either the second or third list compiled by the federal gvt to qualify this or that person who happened to be living in a particular dwelling as "full blood". The Keetoowah Band says no less than 1/4 --from the Dawes List--. Nice that so many chase after a list they didn't make.
So Jackson issues an decree of 'Thanks for taking care of the place until we got here, please sign the guest book' and that makes an Indian? 101,000 names, and that's all of them? That's it? No whites lived on Indian lands and were adopted into Indian families ever? No blacks?
And I'm not picking on the Cherokee for fun, they're just a really good example. As I see it, they told us who was an Indian and who wasn't and we believed it. Now someone has to find their name on the list or they're not "real". How, self-deprecating. I thought we were Nations, why are we acknowledging the decisions and records of a government that has decided to rule us? Why can't the tribes say "screw you, our tribe is who we choose, totally independent of the BIA?"
Actually the Tribes do decide who is and who isn't. The federal gov no longer does that and in the case of the Cherokee's (since you did bring it up)--I happen to have the Dawes Rolls and the Baker Rolls (The roll of the Eastern Cherokee) and the Guion Miller Rolls along with the books of the applications and information from the apps of the Guion Miller Rolls. So with that said.

If you read the intro to the rolls, the ones copied and written up by Bob Blankenship and tribal member of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and his rolls are accepted by all three Nations as being authentic, it tells how and why these rolls came to be. And that although they were done by the Indian Agent at the time (hence the names of the different rolls 'cause of the different agents) it was in conjunction with the Tribal Council at that time and after they all agreed on who should and who shouldn't be enrolled as a Cherokee then it went to Congress for final approval.

Through researching through many of these records I found something that stated that back around the 1850's that the gov only accepted someone as being NDN if they were 1/4 blood or more, I can't remember exactly where I found it but I think it had to do with the 1835 Cherokee Census that is called the Henderson Roll (which I have that as well). Now if you look at many of the old Cherokee rolls you will actually find several members back in that time period listed on the rolls and accepted who had less blood degree then that. Now, around 1900 (sometime) that's when it was set for the Eastern Band of Cherokee NDN's and yes I can prove this, however, you would need to have copies of the transcribed rolls to follow my proof and many of them are out of print and some I was lucky enough to obtain the last available copy. However, again, they do have copies at the library on the Qualla boundary or you can look at the library in Tahlequah, if you would like the info to go check it out yourself. I can also give you a name of a gentleman (not on line) who was listed on every roll of the Eastern Cherokee's, but was denied and fought over and he states this in his Guion Miller application and his grandson is on the Rejected list on the Baker rolls. So the tribes do decide and have decided all along. Or at least the Cherokee's have.

"Not Real"? What? does being a tribal member only make you real? No one said that someone isn't NDN just because they don't have a card. All that means is that you can't be a tribal member. But doesn't mean that you are not a descendant. And again all that means is that you can't own land on the res, you can't use IHS (and believe me they are the worst) and you aren't intitled to any services from the tribe. And I could go on about Center's and the Minority funds, but that would take up too much time here. But the tribes do decide that for themselves now.
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Old 12-15-2009, 03:06 PM   #66
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Who "belongs" and who "don't"

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchesmany View Post
Well, I don't know how contentious you want to get here. How about: I'm of the opinion that the whole idea of the tribes acknowledging the quanta system is taking on the mantle of a system that our ancestors never used. The best thing the tribes could do to further their own interests would be to "adopt" anyone who came along that met their requirements for language and ceremony and knowledge and totally deny the BIA's authority by being able to track "ancestry". Making a tribe a people of their choosing rather than just defaulting to what the government told us qualified as a "Full blood" in the first place. Thoughts?
With all respect (glad to break the boredom!) you are right, back in the old days with infant mortality rates as they were, nearly any healthy person that actually was an asset to the tribe (hunter, fisher, gatherer, toolmaker, etc) and helped fend off enemies - would be taken in. Didn't tribes raid each other for healthy women to bear children? What about the ensuing offspring from those captives? No DNA testing way back then.

I guess the federal gov't as it was back then, was trying to legally define who "belonged" in the new and growing "U.S.A." After the Civil War, the 14th Amendment was passed.......... Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are varying interpretations of the original intent of Congress, based on statements made during the congressional debate over the amendment.[8] During the original debate over the amendment Senator Jacob M. Howard of Michigan—the author of the Citizenship Clause—described the clause as excluding American Indians who maintain their tribal ties, and “persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.” He was supported by other senators, including Edgar Cowan, Reverdy Johnson, and Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lyman Trumbull.[4] Howard additionally stated the word jurisdiction meant "the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now"[4] and that the United States possessed a “full and complete jurisdiction” over the person described in the amendment.[5][9][4] Other senators, including Senator John Conness,[10] supported the amendment, believing citizenship should include all children born in the United States.

In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (1884), the clause's meaning was tested regarding whether it meant that anyone born in the United States would be a citizen regardless of the parents' nationality. In that case, the Supreme Court held that the children of Native Americans were not citizens, despite the fact that they were born in the United States.

.......and nowadays, that legislation largely meant to ensure U.S. citizenship of freed African slaves, and their offspring, is granting U.S. citizenship to children of foreign nationals (i.e. illegal aliens) born here.

So, yes, the *old* blood quantum rule should be revisited, but political and legal bodies would resist, just as they squeam about the 14th.

The blood quantum rule probably followed how the european monarchies held power back then.

O.K. - question: Could or should a person "immigrate" into a tribe? Get a "Green Card" (or red?) wait five years, take a citizenship test in tribal language and then "naturalize" into full tribal citizenship?

Just asking because once the door cracks open, there will be all kinds of proposals, and....lawsuits to follow.

Respectfully,

AK
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:52 PM   #67
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The blood quantum rule probably followed how the european monarchies held power back then.
Actually, it had much more to do with the European conceptions of social and biological evolution. In the prevailing notions of the time, Darwinism served to buttress a chain of being with white, Northern European males at the top. Blood quantum is a reflection of eugenic ideas of "bad blood (genes)"; just like the one drop rule.

I do suggest you read Real Indians: Identity and the Survival of Native America by Eva Marie Garroutte. She has some very provocative ideas about returning to our original instructions from the Creator to guide citizenship within tribal nations. What I think she does lack in discussion, is a framework for interfacing with the Euro-American legal system.

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Old 12-15-2009, 07:33 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post

O.K. - question: Could or should a person "immigrate" into a tribe? Get a "Green Card" (or red?) wait five years, take a citizenship test in tribal language and then "naturalize" into full tribal citizenship?

Just asking because once the door cracks open, there will be all kinds of proposals, and....lawsuits to follow.

Respectfully,

AK
Many tribes have provisions or at least a few words in their tribal constituton about adopting a person into the tribe. Im sure its never used, but Ive seen a few lines in a few constitutons about this. Of corse none mentied anything about language or tests. May or may not be a good idea. Better than just basing it on votes of the counsil. But they should also have a connectin. Id rather see spouses who help out and are involved with tribal activities (cooking, helpin out with labor, volunteerin for stuff) "immigrate" into the tribe rather than some person witha "indian heart".
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:33 PM   #69
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Timmy- I accept that there are several lists, and that many of them were certified by the tribes to which they applied. But if I can concede that, can't you concede that they had no way of knowing that a century later those same lists would be held up as some sort of authority on who can "rightfully" claim native ancestry and who couldn't?
I'm not talking about the 'Cherokee Princess Great Grandmother' stories out there, I mean why should those lists have ANY value beyond, 'here's a list of all the indians we found in this spot at this time'? Its a glorified census, not a comprehensive list of tribal membership and tradition. No qualified Anthropologist would treat a century old list as a definitive record of who is *currently* part of a cultural group. And yet, there are people running around claiming 1/256th Cherokee because some family member is on the rolls. 1/256th?? What does that even mean?
What I'm saying is, signing an email with "wado" doesn't make someone Cherokee. I don't care who's name appears where. So I'll restate my original objection: why is it that a "non-Indian" doesn't get a CBID if the tribe says they're a member? Shouldn't the tribes be deciding for themselves regardless of documentation? I don't see that happening nearly as often as the tribes leaving it to the individual to prove ancestry based on government lists that were compiled specifically to marginalize the tribes. If I call a man my brother and he drums with me and he dances with me and we sing the blessings in the language of our people, who is the BIA to tell me he's not my brother because his Great Great Grandfather isn't on the list?

Amigo - A "red card"? That will be an interesting day indeed.

OL - Part of my college education was learning exactly how inelegantly the native traditions have interfaced with the British legal system. Common Law comes kinda close, but corporate law is a whole other evil beast. I think it will take a long time for individual tribal members to recognize that until we learn how they think we will not get much accomplished. We need a fleet of Hopi lawyers to start going on speaking tours.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:18 PM   #70
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Quote:
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I mean why should those lists have ANY value beyond, 'here's a list of all the indians we found in this spot at this time'?

So I'll restate my original objection: why is it that a "non-Indian" doesn't get a CBID if the tribe says they're a member?

If I call a man my brother and he drums with me and he dances with me and we sing the blessings in the language of our people, who is the BIA to tell me he's not my brother because his Great Great Grandfather isn't on the list?
Are your objections to BQ, that there are "Indians" who are ethnicly and culturly part of your tribe but were not in the "right spot at the right time" and did not make rolls?
Or are they that people who's family chose to outsourse their love, and breed theirselves out of being enrollable?
Tribes have the power to change their constitutions and redefine their membership criteria. They do.

When you ask why cant a "non-indian" the tribe says is a member get a CDIB, Im not sure what you mean. If they are indeed "non Indian" they have no blood and cant get a CDIB. But thats so easy even I could figur it out. So maybe you meen they are Indian but not enrolled, which means the "tribe" does not recognize them as a member. Or maybe the community in general sees them as a tribal member but the "tribe" the acutal tribal goverment does not (no enrollment). In that case they are Indian, but not enrolled and cant get IHS servise or eagle permits, or have tribal land. Well theres nothing wrong with that, many Indians who need feathers for legit religus purposes have feathers (they dont let a law stop their religin) other than that are they bitter they dont get really awesome health servise and a kick butt hud housing?

Is the man you call brother who dances and sings with you an Indian? If not you can call him brother all you want but if hes not Indian the BIA can deny him anything they want. If he is Indian then its a matter to address with your tribal counsul. Run for offise. Vote to have him enrolled. Change your constitution.

Just trying to understand what you are asking, not trying to pick a fight.
Im confused and my head hurts.

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Old 12-15-2009, 09:45 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchesmany View Post
Timmy- I accept that there are several lists, and that many of them were certified by the tribes to which they applied. But if I can concede that, can't you concede that they had no way of knowing that a century later those same lists would be held up as some sort of authority on who can "rightfully" claim native ancestry and who couldn't?
I'm not talking about the 'Cherokee Princess Great Grandmother' stories out there, I mean why should those lists have ANY value beyond, 'here's a list of all the indians we found in this spot at this time'? Its a glorified census, not a comprehensive list of tribal membership and tradition. No qualified Anthropologist would treat a century old list as a definitive record of who is *currently* part of a cultural group. And yet, there are people running around claiming 1/256th Cherokee because some family member is on the rolls. 1/256th?? What does that even mean?
What I'm saying is, signing an email with "wado" doesn't make someone Cherokee. I don't care who's name appears where. So I'll restate my original objection: why is it that a "non-Indian" doesn't get a CBID if the tribe says they're a member? Shouldn't the tribes be deciding for themselves regardless of documentation? I don't see that happening nearly as often as the tribes leaving it to the individual to prove ancestry based on government lists that were compiled specifically to marginalize the tribes. If I call a man my brother and he drums with me and he dances with me and we sing the blessings in the language of our people, who is the BIA to tell me he's not my brother because his Great Great Grandfather isn't on the list?

Amigo - A "red card"? That will be an interesting day indeed.

OL - Part of my college education was learning exactly how inelegantly the native traditions have interfaced with the British legal system. Common Law comes kinda close, but corporate law is a whole other evil beast. I think it will take a long time for individual tribal members to recognize that until we learn how they think we will not get much accomplished. We need a fleet of Hopi lawyers to start going on speaking tours.

Well, now had you come to me about a year ago and said that, then I might have concede that. But since then I have actually found some things proven totally by Federal and Tribal documentation and records and I am going to share that with you now:

You say "A century ago". Well, this is 2009 and that would mean you are talking about 1909. Well, again this is incorrect. You see in 1908 the Eastern Cherokee's had another roll called the "Churchill" roll. Now, I have found many families, and I do mean many, who's parents, grandparents and etc. had been on all the previous rolls up to that point (now remember before I told you that the blood quantum came in around 1900, here we go). Now, the families I've found have near 6-8 or more siblings most with spouses and children. Now, sometime between 1989-1910 half of these siblings with their spouses and children wind up in OK with the CNO listed on the Dawes roll as tribal memebers, where their blood siblings (also on a previous eastern roll called the Hester Roll done in 1884) who remained in NC,TN, GA,AL and SC were all denied enrollement and rejected on that roll, basically for purposes of too low of blood quantum. And I'm not talking one or two here. I'm talking about (so far) 400 names that show up in OK and several different families and family lines where all their siblings who remained in the East were denied and dropped off the rolls. So I say that yes they were aware and made aware and still stayed where they were and that is where the tribe says "If your ancestor left or gave up their rights, then.....". So they were made aware at that time, those who were on the line. Now, I honestly can't tell you if the ones who's "Blood quantum or relationship to the tribe" wasn't in question back then--if they were ever made aware of that or not. We (it's a collective search, not just one or two of us) are looking to try to find documents stating about the "blood quantum" or something that states that they were actually told tha they either go west or be dropped, but so far none of us have actually found those records. But based on the number or persons involved they must have been aware.

Now if you really want a good kick in the seat or your pants, here's a good one: many of those who were denied on the Churchill Roll were accepted as part of the "Guion Mlller Roll" done between 1906-1909. However, something many aren't aware of and should know is that the Guion Miller Roll was not a roll for tribal purposes--not for enrollement. What that roll was all about was that the Eastern Cherokee's who stayed after the "Trail of Tears" in 1838/39 and those Cherokee's who went on the "Trail", their descendants had a law suit against the Federal Gov around 1870 for failure to live up to their end of their agreement with the Cherokee's during that time and the Cherokee people won that law suit. So the Guion Miller roll was made for the purposes of payment to the descendants of the Cherokees, both who stayed in the East and those who went west in 1838/1839 (The First Settler's were not a part of this at all and could not claim or apply for any of this money) and many of the names who were rejected on the Churchill rolls are actually on and approaved on the Guion Miller Roll.

That is actually what the lists are. The Tribe themselves will tell you "Sure there might have been some or our people out there that weren't on the rolls or that we aren't aware of. But this is all we have and the best that we have and all we can go by." If you read some of the rolls or talk to any of the people actually there--those exact words will be and have actually be said and put in writing many times. All they can do is go by what they have and that comes from the Tribal Council and Tribal Enrollment.

Now you are mentioning a CDIB. Well that really doesn't have much to do with Tribal enrollement. The CDIB is "Certificate of Indian Blood" and is issued by the BIA (Bureau of Indian affairs) which are two different entities. However, the BIA was in a Law Suit many years ago and after that the tribes did take over their own BIA offices. Each one being run by the Tribes themselves, but they are supposed to conform to the Federal rules and regs set forth by the Main office in Washington even though each one is actually supposed to be seperate now. However, the Tribal Enrollement cards are completely seperate from the CDIB and is issued by tthe tribes themselves. Although, I am aware that if a tribal member has a child and they enroll them, then the Tribal Enrollment office does the paperwork automatically for the childs CDIB (usually this is the case). But before the Law Suit, I know personally several people who had CDIB's but were not enrolled by a Tribe.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:05 AM   #72
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Big - "Is the man you call brother who dances and sings with you an Indian? If not you can call him brother all you want but if hes not Indian the BIA can deny him anything they want."

So the US gov gets to tell France who they will and will not recognize as French? That doesn't even work in time of war.

Timmy - I think we're coming at this from two different positions. I'm not worried about the sanctity or authenticity of the Rolls as they were three, four, five generations ago. I am saying they *should* be virtually useless today as anything except a glorified census report. And yet, they are still referenced as a resource in determining who is and is not a "real" Indian. Geneology is great, and very useful information to have, but what has that got to do with whether or not someone is a Creek *now*? I genuinely do not care one itsy bit that in 1908 some Cherokee or Muskokee or Mohawk or Kiowa chief signed off on some sheet of paper with a bunch of names on it. Heck, just the fact that you've spent so much time defending the quality of the research should say something about how questionable so many of the documents have been. So, questionable documentation, possibly falsified or signed under duress, compiled by a foreign government, and this is supposed to tell us who is and isn't one of us today? I am dubious, that was my point.
You seem very thoroughly informed on the subject of the Rolls, that's good. History is always a valuable thing to know, it is through History that we come to know who we were and thus a part of who we are. But to be strangled by a history we didn't write, I find that, um, frustrating.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:34 AM   #73
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Big - "Is the man you call brother who dances and sings with you an Indian? If not you can call him brother all you want but if hes not Indian the BIA can deny him anything they want."

So the US gov gets to tell France who they will and will not recognize as French? That doesn't even work in time of war.

Timmy - I think we're coming at this from two different positions. I'm not worried about the sanctity or authenticity of the Rolls as they were three, four, five generations ago. I am saying they *should* be virtually useless today as anything except a glorified census report. And yet, they are still referenced as a resource in determining who is and is not a "real" Indian. Geneology is great, and very useful information to have, but what has that got to do with whether or not someone is a Creek *now*? I genuinely do not care one itsy bit that in 1908 some Cherokee or Muskokee or Mohawk or Kiowa chief signed off on some sheet of paper with a bunch of names on it. Heck, just the fact that you've spent so much time defending the quality of the research should say something about how questionable so many of the documents have been. So, questionable documentation, possibly falsified or signed under duress, compiled by a foreign government, and this is supposed to tell us who is and isn't one of us today? I am dubious, that was my point.
You seem very thoroughly informed on the subject of the Rolls, that's good. History is always a valuable thing to know, it is through History that we come to know who we were and thus a part of who we are. But to be strangled by a history we didn't write, I find that, um, frustrating.

No we are not coming at this from different positions. You brought up the rolls and the issues of them. And then you tried to claim that they weren't approved by the Tribe and should be discredited and when I showed you that they were then you changed your stand again.

So what I'm reading is that you are trying to Null and Void the tribes proof of who they are and who's ancestor's are who's. Isn't that the same as throwing out someone's family Bible? You know names and dates get left out of those too.

So if I'm reading you right then in your above statement. Someone wakes up one morning and says "Oh I feel Mohawk today" then they should be automatically accepted as such. Or someone decides to read a few books that they THINK are legit about Mohawks then the tribe should just enroll them. It doesn't work like that. It's about Culture and Heritage and whether distasteful that may be to some--that's still genealogy like it or not. See this doesn't appear to me to be what the original statement was. It appears that one person doesn't like it so change it. Well, now wait a minute here. There are many, I know, who think the way that you do---but there are just as many who don't and are the Enrolled members of the tribes. So why should they change their ways to make someone who's never lived there, or been a member of the community (for that you don't have to be enrolled) or helped out or anything else just 'cause they say so or don't like something. Isn't that what the gov did the Indian people to begin with? They didn't like the way they did things, so they decided to change it. Isn't that what you are saying here as well? Change it 'cause you don't like it. There are things I don't like, but I accept what I can't change and I sure don't tell other's how they have to live or who they have to accept just to pleas me.

You originally came on here saying that the tribes don't decide for themselves. I think we've shown you that they do. Now it's gone to something else. Change it around all you want the fact still remains that it's about Heritage period. Not a dream or anything else.

The tribes decide for themselves who are and aren't members. And it's what they say it's based on and that's the way it is. But this would make things more difficult for anyone to even be accepted. Because they no longer do rolls, it's what they go by from their last rolls. Okay, so now if you null and void to older one's totally--then guess what you are null and voiding a whole lot more people then you think who have heritage even if they can't be enrolled either. Is that really what you want to have done. Think about it really carefully---the consequences of those kinds of actions, not just to yourself but to other's. It won't make anything any better, but might hurt more.

You didn't like this and you didn't like that. When it was shown to you that what you didn't like was a misconception, then you change it again. Nah, not for me. The answer's still the same. The tribes decide who are and are not tribal memebers and who is and who is not eligible for enrollement and it is their decision on what bases they do that, not anyone else's.

Wow, now my head is starting to hurt.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:11 AM   #74
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timmy - It seems like you're actively misreading me. I specifically made the point that the "I feel like a Mohawk" people are not who I'm talking about. Read back, I even stated "I'm not talking about the Great Great Grandmother Princess" stories. So no, you're not reading that right. And thank you for repeating a point I already made.
And no, the tribes don't get a choice. I've worked with BIA law, the Dine can *claim* a member all they want, the US gov doesn't have to acknowledge anything they don't want to. And what a shock that enrolled members like to hold on to a power they don't deserve and haven't earned because someone else's government says they have to be recognized whether we like it or not. I wonder how they justify that . . . Or did you really think that I would have a problem with the idea of not using the Rolls any more and instead asking people to actually *be* Indian?
And I made the point that the Dawes list is incomplete on it's face because it is nothing more than a list of names. Who was a half breed at the time of the recording? Which you *agreed* with.

I'm genuinely not sure what it is you're debating here. You've quoted me but you seem to have only skimmed what I wrote. Do you like that the tribes have to answer to the BIA? Do you enjoy the fact that a glorified census report from a century ago is being used as a club by the Fed to "allow" someone to claim "real" Indian status when they are *completely* ignorant of their people and their songs and their language or even where their tribal lands are located? Since we've both already answered that I'm curious exactly what it is I'm saying that you're actually disagreeing with.
I haven't changed my ideas or my argument at all, I haven't even questioned the accuracy/validity of the Dawes Rolls. And yet, that's most of what you discussed. Useful information, it's true, but no where near the point I was making or made. So I'll be more direct, the tribes still have to answer to the BIA in a way that makes them subservient and some people choose to justify that by saying we like it that way. But at least their Great Grandfather's name is on this handy list the government was kind enough to provide . . .

As for "You didn't like this and you didn't like that" I don't even know what that means. I didn't like what or what?
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:04 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by watchesmany View Post
...the tribes still have to answer to the BIA in a way that makes them subservient and some people choose to justify that by saying we like it that way.
I've been saying this for nearly 1,000 posts.

Reality?

1. Culture is NOT genealogy.

Being listed in your family's Bible isn't nearly so important as whether your follow your family's tenets, as stated in that Bible. Culture is content based.

2. The Rolls are inaccurate. ALL of them.

This, essentially, makes them ineffective arbiters of who, and who is not, glorified as Native.

3. Even if they were accurate, you must be sanctified by the Great White Father for it to mean anything.

Self-explanatory as to how stupid it is to support this idea.

4. Quantum is a diminishing resource.

Unless you're hoarding it like gold by breeding Natives like dogs, it makes no sense to buy stock in it.

5. One of the great powers of actual Nations is to determine who their citizens are, a power we don't have to exercise, being crippled by systems we didn't devise.

Meaning, of course, that "limited sovereignty" isn't sovereignty, at all: but I've been saying that, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger
Someone wakes up one morning and says "Oh I feel Mohawk today" then they should be automatically accepted as such.
If the tribe accepts them? ABSOLUTELY. That's the point. Beyond The Reich -- and it is a fallacy to believe that it was supported by rank and file Germans -- I am unaware of any Nation that bases its citizenship on strict succession, let alone succession as validated by a 3rd party. We can argue about who the tribes accepts, but that it shouldn't be lineage-based or have to be validated by the Great White Father seems self-evident.

Unless you have a reason to desire the number of American Indians to remain static.

And that comes down to $$$, fear, and people like KiowaKat: who make their living via the exploitation of Federal table scraps to keep pets docile. When these folks are marginalized, eradicated, and/or shown to be the zoo animals they are -- THEN -- we'll grow as Nations.

Every day we accept definitions offered by the Great White Father, in exchange for commodities, is a day we remain kept. THINK! Do you truly believe the Feds desire to keep paying?

Only if/when it's in their best interest. If we quantum ourselves out of existence, who needs the BIA? If "everyone" gets healthcare, who needs IHS? If Haskell's graduation and placement rate falls below that where the cost of maintaining it is more expensive to Natives then just paying them off (I think it's there), why should it exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger
There are many, I know, who think the way that you do---but there are just as many who don't and are the Enrolled members of the tribes. So why should they change their ways to make someone who's never lived there, or been a member of the community (for that you don't have to be enrolled) or helped out or anything else...
Because they have a little bit of Vision, aren't defined by their past, cease to fear growth, and have a desire to actually exist as something other than an Endangered Species in 100 years?

Good enough for me.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:06 AM   #76
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:34 AM   #77
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Well, I don't know how contentious you want to get here. How about: I'm of the opinion that the whole idea of the tribes acknowledging the quanta system is taking on the mantle of a system that our ancestors never used. The best thing the tribes could do to further their own interests would be to "adopt" anyone who came along that met their requirements for language and ceremony and knowledge and totally deny the BIA's authority by being able to track "ancestry". Making a tribe a people of their choosing rather than just defaulting to what the government told us qualified as a "Full blood" in the first place. Thoughts?
I don't think I'm missing or misreading anything here. Here is your first quote that I did not answer to. You clearly state in it about "Adopt" ANYONE--and the rest is above.

And you are saying "Their requirements" well it is the tribes to decide not for anyone else to decide for them. And based on who's idea of what the "Language, ceramony and knowledge" is are you going by? Because we could really get into some of that, but I'm not up for that right now, maybe someone else is. And when someone talks about "Ceramony" it scares the daylights out of me. I've had so many come to me and say "this is a such and such ceramony" and when I ask someone actually of that tribe or from that res, they look at me in total shock and say "I've never heard of such a thing" and then when I go back to the person and share that with them and who said it---it's always the same lame excuse "Oh well they have been so turned around by the gov that they've forgotten their own culture. But we have kept it going 'cause we don't let the gov tell us how it should be done." Are you kidding me here? Dang who makes this crap up?

Your opinion is one I've heard many many times and it's your opinion and you're welcome to it. But the point is is that it's not everyone's and a whole tribe isn't going to change their way of doing things for just one person or a handful of people.

And you said above about "Our ancestor's never wanted". Um, how do you know that? Did you talk to them? I wasn't alive in 1908 so I have no clue. I can only go by what's documented to know what was what back then. Gee, there it is again. I hear all about the ancestor's and what they did or didn't want, but dang no proof, just words. So when I showed you that "the ancestors" or some of them did know--uh you changed it again.

i'm not going to touch the Blood Quantum thing because I have my own opinion, but I accept what the tribes have decided even if I don't like it. However the point still remains that you have to have some blood and be connected--again heritage. That's THEIR rules and that's the way it is.

Then you brought up the rolls to make a point. Well, I showed you were your misconceptions were on that, that was my point was that if you were using the fact that the tribes had no say--you are totally incorrect and if that was your basis for this whole thing, then you should think about it and find another basis. Nope, you totally skipped that and went on elsewhere.

My point was only to show you that the Tribes did have a say--totally. And they still do. That they had a part in the Rolls and that what you were going by and basing what you were saying was based on a very popular misconception.

Okay again here you go. You are saying that the "Tribe" can adopt anyone that they want but that the US gov doesn't have to accept that. Okay, in what way here? If all you are looking for is to be tribally enrolled--then who cares about the gov or the CDIB--it's the tribe you are talking about. Or, again, is there more as two of us stated at the begining--Medical, land and what some perceive as "free money" that doesn't really exist anywhere. So you are saying that you want to oust the gov in NDN politics, but then you are saying that you want the gov to recognize an adopted person of a tribe as being NDN. Um that's double talk.

No I didn't agree with what you were saying about the Dawes roll at all. If you re-read what I said you will see that "Blood Quantum" actually wasn't the basis at all for the Dawes roll, it was about Heritage and who were the descendants of the Cherokee's. An "Adopted" person was actually litsed on that roll as being "Adopted" with no Blood quantum--there you go, and where do you think the gov got the info on who was adopted? From the people of the tribe. And a "Freedman" was listed as a "Freedman". So again it was and will always be about the connection, heritage--but not totally about blood quantum. Which you are combining the two and not looking at what it really is.

I only came in to clear up your obvious misconceptions about how the tribes had no control over the "Rolls" and that it was all the gov. No I will not discuss with you my likes or dislikes of anything else. I am not debating anything, just clearing up some misconceptions that you apparently had and were trying to use to make your point. If you want to make your point--do it with actuality and not a misconception. That's my point.

I'm disagreeing with facts, not your opinion. As I said you are entitled to it. But you want to change something by saying that the tribes don't have a say. But they do. And that's the point.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:56 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I've been saying this for nearly 1,000 posts.

Reality?

1. Culture is NOT genealogy.

Being listed in your family's Bible isn't nearly so important as whether your follow your family's tenets, as stated in that Bible. Culture is content based.

2. The Rolls are inaccurate. ALL of them.

This, essentially, makes them ineffective arbiters of who, and who is not, glorified as Native.

3. Even if they were accurate, you must be sanctified by the Great White Father for it to mean anything.

Self-explanatory as to how stupid it is to support this idea.

4. Quantum is a diminishing resource.

Unless you're hoarding it like gold by breeding Natives like dogs, it makes no sense to buy stock in it.

5. One of the great powers of actual Nations is to determine who their citizens are, a power we don't have to exercise, being crippled by systems we didn't devise.

Meaning, of course, that "limited sovereignty" isn't sovereignty, at all: but I've been saying that, too.



If the tribe accepts them? ABSOLUTELY. That's the point. Beyond The Reich -- and it is a fallacy to believe that it was supported by rank and file Germans -- I am unaware of any Nation that bases its citizenship on strict succession, let alone succession as validated by a 3rd party. We can argue about who the tribes accepts, but that it shouldn't be lineage-based or have to be validated by the Great White Father seems self-evident.

Unless you have a reason to desire the number of American Indians to remain static.

And that comes down to $$$, fear, and people like KiowaKat: who make their living via the exploitation of Federal table scraps to keep pets docile. When these folks are marginalized, eradicated, and/or shown to be the zoo animals they are -- THEN -- we'll grow as Nations.

Every day we accept definitions offered by the Great White Father, in exchange for commodities, is a day we remain kept. THINK! Do you truly believe the Feds desire to keep paying?

Only if/when it's in their best interest. If we quantum ourselves out of existence, who needs the BIA? If "everyone" gets healthcare, who needs IHS? If Haskell's graduation and placement rate falls below that where the cost of maintaining it is more expensive to Natives then just paying them off (I think it's there), why should it exist?



Because they have a little bit of Vision, aren't defined by their past, cease to fear growth, and have a desire to actually exist as something other than an Endangered Species in 100 years?

Good enough for me.

Culture isn't--but heritage is and that's the point. The tribes go by Heritage and they really always have. Of course they are all inaccurate, but then nothings totally perfect in life now is it? All anyone can do is the best that they can.


I agree if the tribe accepts them then that's the way it is. But he's saying about the BIA. Well so what? What does that mean? No federal services. Now come on here Zeke isn't that what you are always complaining about people living off of the gov. Well, then if the tribe "Adopts" someone then who cares if the BIA accepts them or not, the tibe did. And yes I know a few people like that and I do honor and accept that totally. Again, they aren't listed with any blood quantum, so again what's the problem with that? And that's why they can't get a CDIB---"Certificate Degree of Indian Blood" card. And if someone's so upset or against blood quantum to begin with why would that card matter or be a big deal in the first place? Hence, my point again.

But then why would someone want to be a part of something that they aren't unless there's something in it for them? And there isn't really. Isn't the point about who we ARE, and that comes from who we COME from. And again--my point.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:17 PM   #79
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:50 PM   #80
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This is kind of like the chicken and the egg argument.

If you are NDN by blood and don't participate in your culture, are you less NDN?

If you have a low BQ and participate in your culture are you more NDN than someone who is a full blood and doesn't "live the life?"

Is being NDN an on and off switch - you is or you is not?

These are all questions that have been raised (not necessarily by me) many, many times.

Can there ever be a "right" or "wrong" answer?

I kind of like the way it was in the old days - your community accepted you or did not accept you - regardless of blood.
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