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Old 12-16-2009, 01:15 PM   #81
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Boring......

Red beads are good, yellow beads are find..... As long as you don't get a whole bunch of sweat beads, Then you can start sweatin' it.

Speaking of how are we ever going to resolve the blood quantum question? As far as I can see, The Creator made it happen so that we can ask for tribal enrollment cards and breathe a sigh of relief when someone tells us his great grandmother was a Cherokee Princess, and we can verify it. Otherwise, can you imagine all the wannabees running around and we never know who is authentic and who isn't. Blood quantum, to me, is kind of a necessary evil that makes no sense but keeps everyone honest. Like I said, The Creator knows what He is doing and who are we to question....... (putting my soap box away now)
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Old 12-16-2009, 02:52 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthofAda View Post
I kind of like the way it was in the old days - your community accepted you or did not accept you - regardless of blood.
I know. Isn't that so easy?

As for Timmy Tiger's point, culture may be heritage, but heritage -- decidedly -- isn't blood.

I guess you could say that a beagle is a beagle, regardless of whether he's raised as shepherd, but only if you're dealing with dogs. I tend to believe that we operate on a higher plane.

The impetus for quantifying Nativeness is tied to spoils. Prior to Natives selling out, we used a qualitative marker. So, the question is, actually, "are you a sellout?"

If your definition is tied to blood, the answer is, "yes."

There is no quantum question.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:01 PM   #83
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:36 PM   #84
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La Casta - Old World Racial Caste System

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Actually, it had much more to do with the European conceptions of social and biological evolution. In the prevailing notions of the time, Darwinism served to buttress a chain of being with white, Northern European males at the top. Blood quantum is a reflection of eugenic ideas of "bad blood (genes)"; just like the one drop rule.

I do suggest you read Real Indians: Identity and the Survival of Native America by Eva Marie Garroutte. She has some very provocative ideas about returning to our original instructions from the Creator to guide citizenship within tribal nations. What I think she does lack in discussion, is a framework for interfacing with the Euro-American legal system.
Yes, let's talk about the knowledge and practices of those centuries -

The euro royalty would mostly inter-marry with other royalty, i.e. Count Von Bonehead of Germany would marry Lady de La Rica of Spain, as long as both were of "royal blood". This ensured their offspring the full entitlements of royalty and possible ascendancy to the throne.

And "La Casta" - the imposed social pecking order in Spain's "New World" in the Americas. File:Casta painting all.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, I was born in Spain due to my dad's U.S. Service. In my wanderings around planet Earth, my Mexican friends playfully called me "gachupin" a now derisive term in Mexico. The "gachupin" or Spaniard born in Spain, was once the top dog in the "Casta" order in New Spain. After the Mestizo peasants revolted, and Mexico became a country, the term was turned against the former elites.

Mexican people still refer to each other by perceived biological traits based upon skin color, hair texture, or facial features...but not always as a put-down or discriminatory act. Nicknames such as Guero (white-looking), Negro (black or dark), Moreno (brown) Indio (looks like Indian) can still be heard daily.

Well, I digress...but this is interesting debate/discussion on tribal issues.

AK
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:43 PM   #85
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Pretty good Zeke. It would be totally awesome if you can say it again in a native language! I'm joking brother.

It is the heart of an individual that authenticates their identity (which is not the same as defining identity).
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:38 PM   #86
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Timmy - We're going in circles and you've managed to make a lot of my point over again. Yes, I'm talking about the BIA, you know, the one who has to approve all decisions on how we handle our own land? So yes, I'm talking about a CBID, because WE should decide CBID, not them. We don't, we can't. End of story. Saying that we like the system we've been forced to adopt seems a little disingenuous. I have an image of happy cows on the way to the slaughter-house. And in the mean time people get to debate percentages and validity of documentation, just like we're doing here. It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

North - I agree mostly. Unfortunately the idea of being a "documented" Indian has become so ingrained that there's going to be a long while and a lot of turmoil before who we are is entirely of our choosing again. It will be quite a power struggle and many hard fought battles to get there. As I think this, and many other chats, have demonstrated. Some people really really really like their paperwork.

Zeke - Sorry if I'm repeating you, I'll use the excuse that I'm new. But if we agree then hey, one more voice for the chorus.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:47 PM   #87
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Blue - "It keeps everyone honest". No, it really doesn't. And I try to not speak for the desires or interests of the Creator, I was taught that the Great Spirit is a creature we can never truly know.
I really don't like "God wills it" because that's usually being told to me by someone who wants me to do what they say whether it's good for me or not. The Crusades were done in the name of God, as was the Spanish Inquisition and people getting burned at the stake. Not to mention the various Native Removals were done in the name of Manifest Destiny which was basically "God gave us this land, too bad there's all those people living on it".
Maybe the Creator wants us to learn to fight the right way. Who knows? But I'd rather worry about my side of the street than try to figure out which part of what is how the Creator is thinking.
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Last edited by watchesmany; 12-16-2009 at 07:07 PM.. Reason: agression
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:48 PM   #88
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Timmy - We're going in circles and you've managed to make a lot of my point over again. Yes, I'm talking about the BIA, you know, the one who has to approve all decisions on how we handle our own land? So yes, I'm talking about a CBID, because WE should decide CBID, not them. We don't, we can't. End of story. Saying that we like the system we've been forced to adopt seems a little disingenuous. I have an image of happy cows on the way to the slaughter-house. And in the mean time people get to debate percentages and validity of documentation, just like we're doing here. It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

North - I agree mostly. Unfortunately the idea of being a "documented" Indian has become so ingrained that there's going to be a long while and a lot of turmoil before who we are is entirely of our choosing again. It will be quite a power struggle and many hard fought battles to get there. As I think this, and many other chats, have demonstrated. Some people really really really like their paperwork.

Zeke - Sorry if I'm repeating you, I'll use the excuse that I'm new. But if we agree then hey, one more voice for the chorus.
No actually we are not going in circles. You came on saying that you didn't like the Blood Quantum system and that's fine. But then you went on to talk about enrollment and a CDIB "Certificate Degree of Indian Blood". But then you don't like going through the paperwork that the tribes currently require to obtain those documents. You seem to be wanting them just handed out on someone's word and that's it no proof. So you want the documents without obtaining any of the required documents to get you or the other's there. Hmm, isn't that like applying for a job and not having any of the skills for that position. But then you used misconceptions of the Rolls to make your point. No, if you want to make your point use actuality to do it and not a misconception. Currently that is what they require and so for now that is the way that it will be until they themselves decide to change it if they ever do. You seem to want it all and not have to do anything to get there and that's not it either. I'm not saying one way or another anything about Blood Quantum at all. I'm saying that the records are what they require and that is what it is.

I can agree with NOA. If someone's accepted then that's the way that it is. But again, that's just my opinion and it's not about any documentation or a tribal enrollment either. It's about NDN is NDN. And Heritage isn't about blood--but it's definition is "Birthright" and that comes from our ancestor's which is again or history and genealogy. And that is based on what we know and what we can find in the way of documentation the best that we can do.

And no I don't see as you are repeating Zeke at all. I've had many debates with Zeke and probably will have many more. As it apears to me that he enjoys it emmensly.LOL What you seem or appear to be saying is to hand out a CDIB (CERTIFICATE of Indian Blood) to everyone who wants one and have the tribes take over the BIA. What he's saying and been saying many many times is to get rid of the BIA and Certificate of ANY kind of blood, I don't think it matter's if it's NDN blood or not, but since that is what and who we are that is the focus for right now. Or at least that's what I've gotten from all his debates anyway. So you are both against the Blood Quantum and the BIA, but for two different reasons or two different ways.

I can, somewhat, see Zeke's point or at least know where he's coming from on that. You I can't. Too much paperwork involved and that's coming from a researcher.LMAO
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:59 PM   #89
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Wink

Timmy - I think I see how you're misrepresenting me. When I say we should be deciding who qualifies for a CBID, I'm saying that the BIA shouldn't have the power it does. I'm using CBID as a shorthand for "certified Indian" which the tribes should decide, not the US gov. As in, we certified them therefore they are Certified. The BIA should be nothing more than the Indian Ambassador's Office. I'll be sure to say "certified Indian" from now on.
Quite frankly, I find it interesting that any Indian would defend someone who's never so much as seen the inside of a sweat lodge saying they're a "real" Indian because their Great Great Grandmother's name is on a list somewhere. Obviously there are those who do. So this has been a learning experience for me.
Conversely, it does put one hell of a burden on the people who want to claim they're Indian. Actually know the stories and the language and all that. What a revolution that would be. I'm with Zeke on that, if someone says "I'm a Mohawk" then let them approach the elders and prove it, in person, no Federally Certified paperwork involved. Which I said. Tehas of the Kiowa comes to mind. And to say that the tribes have all agreed to the system, I don't think that's true. I think some of the "documented" Indians have been given power by the BIA and now they're making decisions for people whose interests they don't actually represent. But, as I'm seeing, this really gets to the heart of the trouble.

As for me agreeing or not with Zeke, I leave it to Zeke to say whether or not I'm repeating him, which he did. Even going so far as to say that what I'd stated was something he'd "said in about 1,000 posts". So my playful apology was for him. I'm not sure why you're replying to it. He and I may not agree on everything, that's fine. But he seems to think we agree a few ideas, so if you think not perhaps you should take it up with him.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:13 PM   #90
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[QUOTE=watchesmany;1352841] Yes, I'm talking about the BIA, you know, the one who has to approve all decisions on how we handle our own land? So yes, I'm talking about a CBID, because WE should decide CBID, not them. We don't, we can't. End of story. QUOTE]

Now maybe I think I understand what you don't like. We should decide on CDIB, (and do but call it an enrollment card). But a CDIB relates directly to the US goverment. For services THEY give us (treaty rites yeah yeah ok if you say so). And land is a huge part of it. We dont have land "cuz its ours", its because they let us have it and let us pretend its ours. If they want to take it (and risk "bad publicity in the eyes of the world, which they dont care too much about anyway) they will take it just like they always have and still do.

Tribes control who they say belong to them, as i say there are tribes that have provisins in place that can adopt obama (no not into a family like that Crow family did) and ENROLL HIM AS A TRIBAL MEMBER (and not to be seen as a tribal persn by the community which is a whole different matter). Enrolled as a tribal member he is legally a tribal member. But if he wants a CDIB hes out of luck because he does not have indian blood. Any thing that a cdib gets you comes from the us government and maybe because of "treaties" or somesuch but they can break it or legislate all over it like they have over tons of others. We have IHS, eagle permits, casinos, and LAND because they let us! Dont fool your self into thinking otherwise. Get your tribe to change its enrollment criteria to what ever you want. Your "brother" can get anything any other tribal member wants. IHS, sure go head, enrollment card will do. I've never come across anything that you need a cdib for that your enrollment card wont do just fine for.
CDIB are good for people who can document their blood but arent enrolled. thats when the us govt looks and sees 1/4th indian, then they are satisfied. Your own tribe can change to enroll who ever they want. that 1/268th cherokee is eligible for the same crap a full blood is.

The real issue should be to get your tribe as self sufficent as possible so they dont need to rely on the us for anything. Create business to fund your own health care, education, and to buy land for communities (put it in trust if the bia is nice enough to say yes to you, if not make enough money to keep your new land and pay the taxes). Stop applying for grants, and taking anything from the US, then you can tell the US to stuff its genecidal regulations. You want things to be like the old days, well in the old days we didnt have no "land ownership". There is no way the US is going to let us go back to those days, so either force them into it (i dont think they are scared of us), keep things the way they are and hope they dont take more from you, or play their game and find a way to keep yourselfs self sufficent. The reservation systems, allotments, and all of their criteria is set for us to eventually be no more so as they say they can "get out of the indian business" We are only "solverign nations" because they let us be (and only as solverign as they can tolerate). Solverign nation my cheeks.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:28 PM   #91
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Quote:
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Big - "Is the man you call brother who dances and sings with you an Indian? If not you can call him brother all you want but if hes not Indian the BIA can deny him anything they want."

So the US gov gets to tell France who they will and will not recognize as French? That doesn't even work in time of war.
That's a very good bad point. The us dont care cuz they dont fund the french health services (FHS), or let the french live on land with in their own country that they let pretend is theirs, etc. The french are not a "nation within a nation" to the US. The french are not us citizens, who they conquered or sweet talked into treaties and "absorbed".

Like i say though, if the tribe as a political unit accepts your brother (and makes him a tribal member) then he is by all means a tribal member. If he is not but is accepted by the tribal community, perfect his heart will swell with joy and warm fuzzies. The united states wont give him a thing, that a tribal member is "entitled" to any more than they will give it to the average non indian in the country. Why should they, your own people dont care enough to legally recognize him why does the US want to? They got better things to do like bail out rich folk.

You didnt really answer my questions. Im still not really sure what the situation behind your frustration with the system is. You make some gooder points and I can understand alot of what you are romantisizing about, however u got to understand we are not equals to the united states. I wish the seats of power were reversed, but they are not.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:29 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchesmany View Post
Timmy - I think I see how you're misrepresenting me. When I say we should be deciding who qualifies for a CBID, I'm saying that the BIA shouldn't have the power it does. I'm using CBID as a shorthand for "certified Indian" which the tribes should decide, not the US gov. As in, we certified them therefore they are Certified. The BIA should be nothing more than the Indian Ambassador's Office. I'll be sure to say "certified Indian" from now on.
Quite frankly, I find it interesting that any Indian would defend someone who's never so much as seen the inside of a sweat lodge saying they're a "real" Indian because their Great Great Grandmother's name is on a list somewhere. Obviously there are those who do. So this has been a learning experience for me.
Conversely, it does put one hell of a burden on the people who want to claim they're Indian. Actually know the stories and the language and all that. What a revolution that would be. I'm with Zeke on that, if someone says "I'm a Mohawk" then let them approach the elders and prove it, in person, no Federally Certified paperwork involved. Which I said. Tehas of the Kiowa comes to mind. And to say that the tribes have all agreed to the system, I don't think that's true. I think some of the "documented" Indians have been given power by the BIA and now they're making decisions for people whose interests they don't actually represent. But, as I'm seeing, this really gets to the heart of the trouble.

As for me agreeing or not with Zeke, I leave it to Zeke to say whether or not I'm repeating him, which he did. Even going so far as to say that what I'd stated was something he'd "said in about 1,000 posts". So my playful apology was for him. I'm not sure why you're replying to it. He and I may not agree on everything, that's fine. But he seems to think we agree a few ideas, so if you think not perhaps you should take it up with him.

Whoa, I'm not mis-representing you. You brought the subject up and you are the one who posted all that stuff. I can only go by what you say here, I'm not a mind reader or anything like that. So when you come out about such things and confuse other's, not just me, then this is what happens. I've done it a time or two myself and know but still it was all based on exactly what you were saying in your posts. I wasn't changing any of your words around or getting into anything that you had not posted first. That's all the BIA is "supposed" to be are Ambassador's, but we all know that that's not quit the case. However you are talking Tribally enrolled and it's still the same thing. The tribe's do decide now and it's their criteria. I didn't say "All" tribes knew and accepted this. You brought up specifically Cherokee and that's exactly who I left my writings about and the records, not any other tribe. Although there are many other's who do use the "Quantum" as a basis for enrollment purposes.

Okay, here you go again. "The Sweat lodge". Are you aware that that is not all tribes ways? You are making a blanket statement about "ALL" indian Tribes based on solely your feelings on this. Not all tribes sweat and in the ones who do in some cases Women don't participate in the sweat lodge. So to make that comment that you did is again putting all together and saying that "If someone doesn't sweat, then they can't be considered Indian" is that what your point is in that statement? It is up to the tribe and I know a few people who went before the Tribal Council to get approved. But they hadn't been involved with the tribe or around and they didn't have a "connection" as in any of the other members of the tribe--no one knew them or of them and they were denied. And never mind that they didn't "meet the criteria of documentation" either.

Wow, your last statement is something that's for sure. I wasn't answering you, I was making a point on my observation--my own opinion. This is a public forum and open to all people to read and post in. So if you don't want someone posting to something you've written other then the one you wrote it too, there's always the PM's.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:46 AM   #93
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Timmy - obviously your recourse is reduction to absurdity. I'm not going to play any more. I didn't say, nor did I imply, that all tribes everywhere have sweats, it was an example. I'm not sure why you keep trying to 'educate' me. I didn't say someone who hasn't sweat isn't an Indian, you're choosing to pull one sentence from a whole idea. That's not debate, that's hyperbole.
I notice you didn't address the fact that you were answering for Zeke. . .

It seems your capacity for exaggeration outstrips your ability to argue concepts. So, explain, I suggested all what "stuff"? So far you've said that I "don't like this and that" and I've suggested "all that stuff". What does that mean? Is that the only recourse you have, to cherry pick random phrases and summarize ideas with "stuff" and "this and that"?
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:59 AM   #94
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Timmy - obviously your recourse is reduction to absurdity. I'm not going to play any more. I didn't say, nor did I imply, that all tribes everywhere have sweats, it was an example. I'm not sure why you keep trying to 'educate' me. I didn't say someone who hasn't sweat isn't an Indian, you're choosing to pull one sentence from a whole idea. That's not debate, that's hyperbole.
I notice you didn't address the fact that you were answering for Zeke. . .

It seems your capacity for exaggeration outstrips your ability to argue concepts. So, explain, I suggested all what "stuff"? So far you've said that I "don't like this and that" and I've suggested "all that stuff". What does that mean? Is that the only recourse you have, to cherry pick random phrases and summarize ideas with "stuff" and "this and that"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchesmany View Post
Timmy - I think I see how you're misrepresenting me. When I say we should be deciding who qualifies for a CBID, I'm saying that the BIA shouldn't have the power it does. I'm using CBID as a shorthand for "certified Indian" which the tribes should decide, not the US gov. As in, we certified them therefore they are Certified. The BIA should be nothing more than the Indian Ambassador's Office. I'll be sure to say "certified Indian" from now on.
Quite frankly, I find it interesting that any Indian would defend someone who's never so much as seen the inside of a sweat lodge saying they're a "real" Indian because their Great Great Grandmother's name is on a list somewhere. Obviously there are those who do. So this has been a learning experience for me.
Conversely, it does put one hell of a burden on the people who want to claim they're Indian. Actually know the stories and the language and all that. What a revolution that would be. I'm with Zeke on that, if someone says "I'm a Mohawk" then let them approach the elders and prove it, in person, no Federally Certified paperwork involved. Which I said. Tehas of the Kiowa comes to mind. And to say that the tribes have all agreed to the system, I don't think that's true. I think some of the "documented" Indians have been given power by the BIA and now they're making decisions for people whose interests they don't actually represent. But, as I'm seeing, this really gets to the heart of the trouble.

As for me agreeing or not with Zeke, I leave it to Zeke to say whether or not I'm repeating him, which he did. Even going so far as to say that what I'd stated was something he'd "said in about 1,000 posts". So my playful apology was for him. I'm not sure why you're replying to it. He and I may not agree on everything, that's fine. But he seems to think we agree a few ideas, so if you think not perhaps you should take it up with him.


THere it is. And how can someone see the inside of a sweat lodge if they've never been in one? Your words above for you.

ANd "This and that" is referring to all the times that you tried to claim that the Cherokee tribe didn't have a say in who was enrolled and who wasn't a "Century" ago when in all actuality they did.

I'm not trying to educate you--maybe you should think of how you put something out towards someone you know nothing about.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:13 PM   #95
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Totally boring around here

Obviously, the dude that said, "let the tribes decide who is NDN doesn't come from any rez. Do you know how many native employees working for the BIA have forged documents listing their relatives (blond, blue eyes, kinky hair, etc) as 4/4 native american. Those employees are everywhere and can be persuaded to pull stuff for a payoff.

Elders would be fine if Elders had their long term memory intact and if they paid attention to relationship systems of early times. Some elders are sharp these days: knowing who shacked up with whom, who x person"s real father was and after that he stayed with woman x and they had 3 children while she was still married to mr y. It does get complicated after a while and it does make your head spin No easy chore for anyone to keep track of.

I'm wondering; I am eagle clan and my husband was bear clan. Does that make our children beagles? How do I put that down on their CBID card?

Cards are fine if they are backed by genealogy trees, DNA. And no one is controlling me to follow through. I am proud of who I am and will do the whole process because I know where I come from and am proud of it. I am not some person from 57 varieties of breeds, countries, nations, cultures. I have one set of roots and stand strong.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:54 PM   #96
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Obviously, the dude that said, "let the tribes decide who is NDN doesn't come from any rez. Do you know how many native employees working for the BIA have forged documents listing their relatives (blond, blue eyes, kinky hair, etc) as 4/4 native american. Those employees are everywhere and can be persuaded to pull stuff for a payoff.

Elders would be fine if Elders had their long term memory intact and if they paid attention to relationship systems of early times. Some elders are sharp these days: knowing who shacked up with whom, who x person"s real father was and after that he stayed with woman x and they had 3 children while she was still married to mr y. It does get complicated after a while and it does make your head spin No easy chore for anyone to keep track of.

I'm wondering; I am eagle clan and my husband was bear clan. Does that make our children beagles? How do I put that down on their CBID card?

Cards are fine if they are backed by genealogy trees, DNA. And no one is controlling me to follow through. I am proud of who I am and will do the whole process because I know where I come from and am proud of it. I am not some person from 57 varieties of breeds, countries, nations, cultures. I have one set of roots and stand strong.

LOL--good points here.

There's no fool proof solution to this subject. And no matter what is done or changed there's always going to be someone who doesn't like it and/or has a complaint about it.

So we just do the best we can with what we have and work hard trying to make it a little better---a little at a time.
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Old 12-28-2009, 06:23 PM   #97
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Zeke intellectually spanking people. Surely you jest.
But yeah I've lost everyone to Farmville. Mother cousins,Aunties,Uncles,
Most of my college friends. It is a little frightening really. This forced farming.
I started a fictional group called Local Resistance to Forced Farming,LRFF.
A group dedicated to the principles of liberating the masses but no they just keep
asking me to fertilize their crops which seems a little forward if you ask me.





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Old 02-23-2010, 12:49 PM   #98
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I'm coming up for air. I'm tired of building stables and weeding my lazy neighbor's fields in FarmVille. I need some intellectual stimulation.

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Old 02-24-2010, 12:16 AM   #99
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one person liberated

Neling,
I knew LRFF would catch on eventually. So if you join that will make exactly two members in what could now be considered a rather exclusive club.



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Old 02-24-2010, 12:06 PM   #100
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Hey Neling4! I hadn't seen you around here for awhile and was wondering what happened to you. Hope everything is going good for you.
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