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Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life What is the meaning behind a Native growing hair long? What is the meaning behind a Native growing hair long?

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Old 12-13-2010, 06:28 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by RDNKJ View Post
Other than basic cleanliness, I really don't see how a student's hair is any of the school's business.
Public school = public definition of minimal criteria.

This isn't discriminatory in ANY way.

Answer? "Run for a slot on the school board."

Part of the problem? "Whine and ask for special treatment."

If the kid would get a haircut and/or his folks would shut up, THEN the school wouldn't have to spend $$$ defending their right, under public power, to choose access conditions.

Query: Do you have an issue with forced immunization?
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:00 PM   #62
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Hey Zeke, should school policy be the same as forced immunization? I mean, should it be the same in every school in the nation? Just asking.

How are you doing?
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:34 AM   #63
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With respect, Zeke, I'm going to partly disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
This isn't discriminatory in ANY way.
Depends. I don't believe the policy is discriminatory by intent. Racial discrimination? No. There's no doubt in my mind that if a little White (or whatever) boy showed up with his hair in braids, the school would enforce the policy just as stringently. Religious discrimination? Not by intent, but you know what they say about the road to h*ll and good intentions. When the Arochas approached the administration and requested a waiver, did the administration take their request as seriously and give it the same consideration as they would, e.g., a Jewish family requesting a waiver for their son to wear his kippah in class, in violation of the no-hat rule? Would a Muslim family get the same consideration for their daughter to wear hijab? I don't know. I wasn't in the room...and y'all can draw your own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Answer? "Run for a slot on the school board."
Yes! Absolutely! Running for office is always one of many options open to everyone who would like to affect policy. But, in my mind, there's a difference between wanting to change policy, and believing that there is already a policy in place, and that the school was in violation of this policy. In this case, the state's/school's ability either to abridge my religious rights or to dictate how I am allowed to practice my religion. That type of question is for the courts to decide.

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Part of the problem? "Whine and ask for special treatment."
If you only knew how many times I've said those exact same words, often with a few expletives thrown in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Public school = public definition of minimal criteria.

If the kid would get a haircut and/or his folks would shut up, THEN the school wouldn't have to spend $$$ defending their right, under public power, to choose access conditions.
Oh, yeah. I understand. We just have a philosophical difference about the parameters of this power. Imo, unless the schools can come up with some sort of empirical data, showing how long male hair (as opposed to long female hair) impairs the learning process, then they have no business trying to regulate hair style. It's his body. Unless his braids are actually negatively affecting someone, then the school/state shouldn't have anything to say about it. But remember, due to my age, I'm a "veteran" of the "hair wars" of the 60's & 70's. So, hair length is a subject that strikes close to home for me.


Quote:
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Query: Do you have an issue with forced immunization?
No, I don't. In fact, I'm a raging hard-arse about required immunizations. Imo, the only exception should be for medical reasons. Serious diseases that can be spread by casual contact should be immunized against. People who aren't vaccinated affect me in that if enough people aren't vaccinated we lose herd immunity.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:29 PM   #64
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I think that if it is a publicly funded institution, of which a public school is, then the administration should not be allowed to impose a rule on how long, within reason, the hair of the students can be. This doesn't mean it can be styled or so long that it imposes a saftey hazard to themselves or anyone else. If this were to be a Catholic or other private school then things would be different as you elect to go to attend such schools.

I don't have a problem with forced immunization as that is a saftey concern.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:38 PM   #65
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Forgot to mention, and no offense to the people of Texas just your government, but the story in question takes place in Texas, the same state where government wants to remove, from it's schools and textbooks, lessons on subjects such as how Mexico and other Spanish and Latin American people and countries have played a part in the formation of the United States, but it doesn't stop there, they even want to remove teachings about Thurgood Marshall.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:53 PM   #66
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Oh, and I forgot to add that I find school districts' arguments that boys' long hair is a "distraction" to be specious. Long hair on males, while not the rule, hasn't been uncommon for a long time. Guys with long hair haven't been "distracting" for a good 40 years.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:20 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
Hey Zeke, should school policy be the same as forced immunization? I mean, should it be the same in every school in the nation? Just asking.

How are you doing?
I'm merely bringing up the idea that public policy is public policy. Irrespective of breaking any law, public schools -- absolutely -- have the ability to mandate appearance. (I mean, we've all heard of "school uniforms," right? In a literal sense, that's what we're talking about, here...)

As for "how I am doing?" Well, it's been an interesting 18 months or so...
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:25 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by RDNKJ View Post
With respect, Zeke, I'm going to partly disagree with you.
As you know, I have no issues with disagreement!

And, I enjoyed your post.

Yes, it appears our only significant difference is where to draw the line.

At the risk of sounding like Darth Vader, I have a tendency to side with The Empire over most individual claims that -- tend to -- carry a hint of spuriousness.

For example, what does this kid's father's hair look like? If it looks like mine, this isn't a religious thing...
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:49 PM   #69
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Forgot to mention, and no offense to the people of Texas just your government, but the story in question takes place in Texas, the same state where government wants to remove, from it's schools and textbooks, lessons on subjects such as how Mexico and other Spanish and Latin American people and countries have played a part in the formation of the United States, but it doesn't stop there, they even want to remove teachings about Thurgood Marshall.
The fight between the two factions on the State Board of Education has been going on for a lo-o-o-ng time. It's been in the paper so often over the years my eyes glaze over when I see another article. The SBOE's been so out of control that the Legislature has had to intervene during the last two legislative sessions and curtail the Board's power.

Sad.
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Old 12-15-2010, 01:07 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDNKJ View Post
The fight between the two factions on the State Board of Education has been going on for a lo-o-o-ng time. It's been in the paper so often over the years my eyes glaze over when I see another article. The SBOE's been so out of control that the Legislature has had to intervene during the last two legislative sessions and curtail the Board's power.

Sad.
This becomes a serious issue because, at least as far as the article states, Texas is the number one consumer of textbooks at some 40% (excludes college texts), which means that they have significant pull when it comes to the content that the publishers put in their books, and the books are typically written for everyone and not just for one state only. In fact one of the largest textbook companies, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, has a subsidiary located in Texas.

The article, however, fails to mention the fact that the history and social studies books are in general full of false information, but this happens in every other country.

So RD, as a Texan yourself, why do they want to edit the textbooks in the manner I describe above? Is this some racist or ultra off-the-deep-end conservative policy, etc, or something that isn't as straight forward? I ask this in order to give a fair shot, as I know first hand that mass media has an agenda and will put a spin on what it is they are reporting.
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Old 12-16-2010, 12:28 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I'm merely bringing up the idea that public policy is public policy. Irrespective of breaking any law, public schools -- absolutely -- have the ability to mandate appearance. (I mean, we've all heard of "school uniforms," right? In a literal sense, that's what we're talking about, here...)

As for "how I am doing?" Well, it's been an interesting 18 months or so...
Unfortunately, the state county and even the local school boards set policy.

My son started kindergarten with hair past his shoulders and graduated with hair past his shoulder. Didn't attend a day of school without hair past his shoulders. He's 23 now and still wears his hair past his shoulders.

Saw three boys about 9 years old not too long ago with hair almost to their waist. It must be ok in their school district. My nephew was making fun of their long hair (he used to have long hair) and I told them, "Tell him only real men have long hair".

Dominant culture (we call it society today) says we should have short hair as used in their culture. Many laws are written this way. Even work laws are written this way. I keep my hair neat and cut to a length I like. Last society accepted haircut I had was in 1993. Before that, 1975. I've been asked if I would cut my hair if it meant my job. I say jobs can be found.

Now is the time to close your ears cuz JD might curse a little. I believe if we accept all the values of the dominant society, then we've become like the dominant society and lost our personal values.

I say..."Now is the time to rise and stand for your beliefs! F the dominant society and their culture based rules. Men, grow your hair long and make that defiant statement. Allow your male children to grow their hair long. Fight the rules! England! Oh, England!" Wait, I got carried away by that scene in the movie with Martin Lawrence. HAHAAAAA!

I'm just saying stand strong in your beliefs.

OK. Time to go read about Rez Santa!
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:20 PM   #72
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I believe if we accept all the values of the dominant society, then we've become like the dominant society...
Are you trying to imply that we haven't, already, accepted the values of our dominant society?

No, I am NOT trying to be an a$$ -- it just happens -- but if you truly think that "hair" is the manner in which to successfully fight The Man...
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:37 PM   #73
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No, I wasn't implying that, Zeke. If I were, we'd be sending up smoke instead of banging away on this keyboard. We wouldn't live in square houses. Our women wouldn't be painting their hair blonde...and men wouldn't be sporting hair above the collar and off the ears, parted on the side...and painted blonde.

I was having a fun moment writing all that about hair, but I wasn't about standing up for your beliefs...whatever they may be.

sxzzzzzzzzzzzzz22222222222222222222qqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqq3wswaaaaa766666666666666666666666666666666z. Sorry. That was a kitteh's point of view.

Tilt you head forward, Zeke. I want to see the blonde highlights.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:36 PM   #74
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Quote:
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sxzzzzzzzzzzzzz22222222222222222222qqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqq3wswaaaaa766666666666666666666666666666666z. Sorry. That was a kitteh's point of view.
I'd like to see you give that kitty a trim. They'll wear their hair as nature intended, LOL. (I can show you the scars from having to cut a 4" strip of duct tape off the hindquarters of a Siamese.)
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:24 PM   #75
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I let my hair grow long because I got tired of having the buzzed flat-top cuts when I was in boarding school.
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:22 PM   #76
Ugh. As. If.
 
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so who invented the mullet?

please don't say joe dirt
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:37 PM   #77
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This becomes a serious issue because, at least as far as the article states, Texas is the number one consumer of textbooks at some 40% (excludes college texts), which means that they have significant pull when it comes to the content that the publishers put in their books, and the books are typically written for everyone and not just for one state only. In fact one of the largest textbook companies, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, has a subsidiary located in Texas.
Yes, Texas has HUGE influence over what appears in textbooks. We all but control somewhere around 80% of the nation's textbooks. That's just an accident of demographics, though. Because of its size/population, Texas dominates in a lot of areas and professions. But it's something people should be aware of.

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The article, however, fails to mention the fact that the history and social studies books are in general full of false information, but this happens in every other country.
Exactly! One of the limitations the Legislature had to put on the SBOE was that they could only refuse or amend textbooks for "factural errors." Of course, the problem is that in subjects like history and social studies the line between fact and opinion can sometimes be kinda murky.

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So RD, as a Texan yourself, why do they want to edit the textbooks in the manner I describe above? Is this some racist or ultra off-the-deep-end conservative policy, etc, or something that isn't as straight forward? I ask this in order to give a fair shot, as I know first hand that mass media has an agenda and will put a spin on what it is they are reporting.
Of course, this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to start a political/religious fight. But here's my take on it.

The conservative faction believes that the history and social studies texts should portray a shinier and more patriotic version of the U.S.. A benign example being changing the description "America's imperialist policies" during the Spanish-American War, to "America's expansionist policies..." (or sthg like that). And apparently, there is a lot of stuff like that. And I just can't get too wound up about it. Weird (to me) things like whether country music or hip hop should be discussed as a major cultural influence?

Besides, editing textbooks, they also set curricular guidelines/requirements. So, a lot of the criticism is their decisions on what to emphasize and what to de-emphasize. How much to emphasize Ronald Reagan compared to Ted Kennedy. De-emphasizing Thomas Jefferson, and emphasizing Thomas Aquinas. Is it a little further "right" than I like? Yeah. But again, that's going to go back and forth with whatever political trend the country's in. If people don't like it, they should be sure to vote, or (thank you, Zeke) "run for a seat" on the SBOE. I think the constant controversy over how/if to teach evolution/intelligent design is more dangerous.

I think there is more than a little racism in the apparent de-emphasis of minority contributions to society/history. To me it reaks a little too much like "(insert racial epithet) gotten too uppity, need to be put back in their place." I don't mean to offend anyone, I want to be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Very troubling is the anti-science, anti-intellectual undercurrent I see running throughout.

So, yes, it is a political policy. Left or right, whoever gets elected gets to set the tone, and does. Although there are certainly changes I don't agree with, I've also read a lot of articles, editorials...critical of the SBOE that really bordered on hysteria.

The current controversies are nothing new, though. If you're not familiar with Mel & Norma Gabler, look them up. I thing you'll find it interesting.
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:27 AM   #78
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snip... Our women wouldn't be painting their hair blonde...more snip.... (see what I'm doing here...lol) Tilt you head forward, Zeke. I want to see the blonde highlights.
JD, I think, in my humble opinion, that the women are bleaching their hair blonde to compete with the blondies that you men keep showing up with... lol For the record, I brought home a bald newfie - he claims his hair was once blonde... now it's a peeled onion shade.
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:24 AM   #79
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JD, I think, in my humble opinion, that the women are bleaching their hair blonde to compete with the blondies that you men keep showing up with... lol For the record, I brought home a bald newfie - he claims his hair was once blonde... now it's a peeled onion shade.
Well, if NDN women would quit sleeping with a knife under their pillow...

I'm just saying.

Are you referring to 'peeled onion shade' as the color of the hair...or the color of the scalp?
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:45 PM   #80
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Well, if NDN women would quit sleeping with a knife under their pillow...

I'm just saying.
Your last two posts, in my opinion, have been outstanding: even if satirical.

My issue with Native women? As a GROTESQUE generality that I admit up front?

If I can go to a powwow on Saturday or an art exhibit with wine, I'm going to go check out some art -- even if I don't wind up liking it -- to experience something new, in a different regional location, and expand my horizons. (If we wind up staying the night, to see what breakfast is like in another location? That's just gravy, because I've already seen some art and had some good wine, in either event.)

Again, as a GROTESQUE generality, that woman/person doesn't readily exist in Native culture because, in order to be like that, you have had to throw off the idea that inherent Nativeness is caused by "what you do" as opposed to "who you are/what you think." (And fearful people, like KiowaKat for instance, would label them/us "sellouts," anyway.)

Perhaps the answer, since we're discussing hair, would be for me to grow mine LONG and said Native woman -- if she exists -- to SHAVE hers, as many females in tribes did.

Then, we'd have it all!
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