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Old 05-10-2004, 01:31 PM   #61
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Yelloweyes

Thanks video that was mentioned is notorious for producing 'baggy' upper. For the most part though you will always have some excess hide to cut off at the heal seem and is not necessarily a bad thing, but excess from side to side on moc will cause the 'baggy' thang everytime and should be avoided. There are several things that can help cut down on this happening when you are making your mocs.

Every hide has some stretch too it and some have more than others, the trick is finding the ones that do not stretch excessively. You see hides stretch more from side to side than from head to butt of the hide. Also, a hide will stretch more near the stomach (which is the outer side edges of a hide), than it does along the back bone. When you lay the upper pattern out on the hide avoid the temptation of maximizing the hide use because of this stretch factor. By this I mean make sure that the leather under the pattern is as even in thickness as possible and that what stretch that is there runs from toe to heal of your pattern and not across the moc.

Now, I disagree with hockeyfan in that I do stretch the upper as I sew it around the mocs. I do not tork the heck out of it but I keep the hide smooth and snug as I sew it around the toe and back to the arch.

Now when I make my patterns I trace the foot with the persons weight on it (which if the moc is for yourself means having someone else trace it for you) and before the weight is removed I measure across the arch of the foot (which is about where your shoe string tie on a normal low top tennis shoe) and mark the sole where that measurement was taken. I then run a line down the center of the moc sole (this line runs from the measured center of the heel to the big toe side of the center toe and I often mark this front mark when I am tracing the foot) and then I draw a line across the pattern between the arch marks making sure that this line is as close to 90 degrees from the heel/toe line as possible by eye. The I use the arch measurement to continue the arch line out to size. (ie. If the arch measurement is 8" then put 4" on either side of the heel toe line and do not add the extra length that the video suggests.) Now after rounding the sole to shape, draw your upper pattern using the these marks. Just swing the line out from about a 1/8-1/4" in front of the toes out to the ends of the arch line, then use a ruler to run a line on back from that toward the heel along that same curve shape.( the finished pattern should look a bit like an inverted V, except for the rounded area at the toe)

Not sure if you will be able to understand this without the picture I had planned to accompany these instructions, but with any luck I have made it clear enough.
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Old 05-10-2004, 02:39 PM   #62
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Yes PWB, I guess I also stretch "a little" but I remember one pair where I had the heel off by more than 1"! I must've not been paying attention, cause that was really a terrible fit! If I am doing a good job, I won't need to trim more than 1/2" during the "heel fit" stage...

The reason this interests me so much, is I've made several pair where the future owner (gift pairs) were not readily available, and I wanted a "perfect" fit right out of the gate. I've tried to make sure I didn't stretch too much, so I could have a good fit right away, without having to be refit afterward.

When a couple pair didn't line up at the heel, I figured "oh well" and then trimmed away the excess along the sole until the 1/2s of the uppers fit flush, WITHOUT having the owner try them on... Long story short, it's always possible to cut excess leather OFF a pattern, but NOT to ADD another 1/2" back on! Too big is better than too small.

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 05-10-2004, 03:54 PM   #63
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anyone have any opinion about using canvas for the uppers? it's going to be beaded of course. Also, what's this someone said about their latigo fell apart, or disentegrated or something when it got wet? Does that happen a lot? Also, you sew the upper to the sole, inside out right, then flip it right side out? And how do you make it so that your beadwork goes all the way touching the sole, like, not leaving any unbeaded area between the upper and the sole?
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:46 PM   #64
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Hockeyfan

You are ever so right in the fact that too big can be worked around but too small is a disaster!

CNG

I have never made mocs with canvas upper and never will, especially since hide is close to the same price as good canvas that is not on sale. I have seen one pair done on canvas and it looked very nice, but that pair still had a 1/2" strip of leather sewn to the sole and them the canvas part stitched to that. As for the latigo falling apart...I have no clue on that cause it has never happened to a single pair I have made using the stuff. Yes, I sew the mocs inside out and then pop them, but I do know some folks that just sew the toe area inside out and the they pop them and finish sewing the rest with it looking normal. And finally as for the beadwork going all the way down to the meet the sole. I can't say I can honestly remember seeing any that do, but if that is what you want to do then I would say you will need to put that last row of beadwork on after the mocs are sewn up and popped
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Old 05-11-2004, 09:48 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChenoaNativeGirl
anyone have any opinion about using canvas for the uppers? it's going to be beaded of course. Also, what's this someone said about their latigo fell apart, or disentegrated or something when it got wet? Does that happen a lot? Also, you sew the upper to the sole, inside out right, then flip it right side out? And how do you make it so that your beadwork goes all the way touching the sole, like, not leaving any unbeaded area between the upper and the sole?
Hi CNG,

I was just thinking, perhaps you are working with a "pucker-type" upper? I've made these before too, and I attached the upper to the sole inside-out like we described, but the "vamp" across the top of the arch (the part in front of the tongue, that has the puckers along the edge) was always attached when it was right-side-out...

As for the beading-to-edge, I think that PWB is exactly right, the last row or 2 would need to be attached after turning back right-side-out. I can't recall seeing any where the last row actually "covered" the seam, normally I see a bit of a gap above the seam before the beadwork. On mine, I normally leave a bit of gap here on purpose, since I seem to sometimes get the moc twisted on my foot a bit during "rough" usage... If there was no gap, I'd end up walking on the beadwork, and damage it. As it is, without a welt the seam takes a bit of abuse, and the thread wears.

hth, Tom
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:34 AM   #66
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OK, well here's my two and a half cents about stretching. Hides do stretch more side to side than head to tail, BUT line up your mocs toe to heel line with the head to tail line of the hide. In other words you want your moc to stretch from side to side. If you think this is going to make a baggy upper, TRIM IT. This was taught to me by the elder ladies who showed me how to make mocs.

I make a new pattern for each foot and do a 'dry fit' to see how the top fits on the sole. It's good to have a little extra on the top and 'gather' slightly around the ball of the foot and the opposite side. Some gathering at both sides of the heel is good too.

I also fold my upper in half and mark the halfway point, and fold each side up and mark halfway to the toe on each side. I do the same with the sole and line up the marks. Most of the time I'll actually tack the top and sole together on those marks so the top doesn't shift as it gets sewed on.

I do fabric and or canvas mocs all the time. Place the upper pattern on the bias of the fabric, cuz you need a little stretch to get your foot in. Then I use a commercial buckskin sole, sometimes doubled.
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:36 AM   #67
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Oh, and I edge the fabric or canvas upper with bias tape BEFORE beading or appliqueing the design. Sew it on with a couple rows of stitching and it's much less likely to 'blow out'. :p
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:40 PM   #68
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Rose

I never had any luck having the stretch going side to side on a pair of mocs. I did a pair for myself years ago that were cut that way and I ended up having to put an insole in them and wear socks with my mocs just to get them to fit, because the dang elk hide stretched so much. That upper gained almost 1 1/2" across the arch after it was popped right side out, and it didn't contract back much either.

For me, that way would be just to iffy cause I like a snug fit across my arch and I can always trim excess from stretching off at the heel seam when it runs on the toe/heel line, but if it works for you...more power to ya...LOL.

I would love to see some of those fabric upper mocs you make if you have any pics of them.
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:45 AM   #69
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powwowbum49

Thanks for the help. See I knew I had forgotten some of what my grandmother showed me. That's what I get for not doing that many mocs for too many years. Tend to forget the little bits of info. let you know how I end up.
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Old 05-13-2004, 11:23 AM   #70
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Well, that's the way I was taught, PWBum. But if you hide stretched and didn't contract that would be the pits. I actually made some mocs when my kids were little and cut one out 'sideways' cuz I was almost out of hide. It stretched the long ways and she had a baggy heel.

The amount of stretch does vary in different parts of the hide. But geez, it's so expensive you really gotta use every square inch.

I'll check for fabric moc pics. Or maybe I'll make some more. :)
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:22 AM   #71
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Okay, I have some more for this tutorial. I am going break down the steps of making a pattern and accompany each step with a photo.

STEP 1

The first step is to trace the foot. Be sure to do this with weight on the foot (since without weight the foot is skinnier than when weight is one it). Also before moving the foot measure the length over the arch. This measurement should be taken at about the point where a pair of low top tennis shoes laces tie at. Be sure to mark on either side of the foot tracing where you took the measurement at, since this will be important later.

Now if you are making mocs for someone else that is sending you their tracing...be sure to let them know that it is important that they get this stuff down for you, or their mocs might not fit well after you are done...LOL!
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:24 AM   #72
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Step 2

Next you will want to sketch the heel area and toe areas of the sole. Run a line connecting the tops of the toes and then continue it around the sides down to where the toe would meet the ball of the foot. At the heel get a good even shape to the heel area and then continue the line up about an inch or so from the heel.
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My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

Last edited by powwowbum49; 05-22-2004 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:27 AM   #73
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STEP 3

Next use a ruler to connect the toe and heel lines on each side of the foot. Do not worry if it goes insde or outside the tracing of the foot.
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:31 AM   #74
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STEP 4

Next I draw 2 lines...the first is a toe/heel line. At the heel measure the distance across the widest part of the heel and put a mark there in the center of that. Then lay the ruler down from that mark to approximately where the middle toe and the toe next to the big toe meet and draw a line up that length. Then take the measurement you made of the arch and divide that in half. Place the ruler so that the half way mark is on the toe/heel line and the marks made when taking the arch measurements. Now draw a line the length of the arch measurement. (You may need adjust up or down slightly as to where the arch measurement marks were made so that you can get the arch line as close as possible to a 90 degree angle to the toe/heel line)

You may notice a Second line now at the heel in the photo. I did this because this pattern is being made for my niece and she's 7 yrs old and growing like a weed. I extended the length of these mocs by about a 1/2 inch to give her some growing room so she won't need a new pair for a year or two.
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"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:38 AM   #75
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STEP 5

Next start tracing out the general shape of the upper from toes back to the arch line. This will very depending on how you like your mocs to fit. For me, I like fairly snug fitting mocs so I keep the tracing line fairly tight to the sole pattern around the toes (within about 1/4" of the foward point of the toes). As you get out to the ends of the toes then start moving out to the point where the arch line ends.

Now if you like looser fitting mocs or you plan on using insoles in your mocs, then give more room at the toe area and you might want to add about a 1/4" to each side of the arch line.
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PB49

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

Last edited by powwowbum49; 05-22-2004 at 03:18 PM..
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:43 AM   #76
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STEP 6

Now continue the tracing back to the heel area of the sole pattern. Continue on the general line/direction you were already making back to the arch line. Once you get to the back of the heel (about 1/2" behind the heel) take your ruler and measure to see if the same amount is on either side of the toe/heel line. If not choose one side and use that measurement on the other side and adjust the tracing accordingly so that the sides are even.

You may want to write the persons name and date on the pattern. Also you might want to write which ever foot the pattern was made from...i.e., RIGHT FOOT and then write the opposite on the other side of the pattern since it will serve for both feet.

Now some folks out there have feet that are not the same size so for those folks you will want to redo steps 1-6 for your other foot.

Now I have to say that after I finish making my sole pattern I take a manilla folder and trace the upper pattern to that. Then I cut out the sole and also trace it to the folder. Then I cut those out of the folder and use them to make my tracings to leather with. I also keep all those pattern for possible future use.
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"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:45 AM   #77
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STEP 7

At this point you are ready to cut the upper pattern out and then trace it on to your leather. Some prefer to always use pencil when tracing a pattern to hide but I just use pen on the back (the side that will be on the inside of the mocs) of the hide. If you needed only one pattern then be sure to remember to turn the pattern over before you trace the second upper...well unless you are that proverbial person with 2 left feet...LOL.
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"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:47 AM   #78
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STEP 8

Once this is all done you can now cut out your uppers. You will also want to cut out a 'welt' for each foot. The welt is a thin strip of leather that is sewn between the upper and the sole to help protect the thread that the mocs is sewn together with and also to seal the mocs so less dirt and moisture can get in. It needs to be at least as long as the upper is around the outer edge plus one inch per side.
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"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:53 AM   #79
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STEP 9

Now you can cut the sole pattern out (if you haven't made the manilla folder copy of the patterns) and use it to mark your sole leather and cut them out. Like the upper be sure to turn the pattern over before tracing the second sole.

Also be sure to mark the sole (and upper for that matter) on the edges with the toe/heel line and arch line marks. I do this because I use these marks as points of reference to line the upper and sole up for sewing.
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"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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Old 05-21-2004, 03:57 AM   #80
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STEP 10

Now that everything is cut out, I prepunch holes in the sole. This allows me to sew up the mocs much easier and quicker. I do this prepunching with an awl that has a very small thin tip so it won't bust through the sole leather ... or I use my dremel and a 1/32" bit in it (but that small a bit is hard to find) to just drill the holes.
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"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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