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SuzzeQ4 01-30-2009 06:41 PM

and yet if you read this thread (and the others like it) it would seem the majority of NDN's share pappy roaches opinion about wannabes at powwows and about people who walk around calling themselves medicine people. Can't figure out what pappy roach said that was so much worse, or why jls2009 chose to single out only certain ones of us who disagreed with statements she / or he made. Plus I have yet to go to a powwow, ceremony or community event where wannabes were welcomed by the majority, just a select few, usualy by self proclaimed (ie fake) medicine people looking for followers. Why would such types like and want wannabe followers? Cause thier communities won't touch them with a ten foot pole. Threatening people through pm's or suggesting threats (like jls2009) did to me is just wrong and shows alot about character. There are a number of people here at powwows.com whose opinions I regularly disagree with, despise even and yet instead of veiled threats we exchange jokes etc. Yep shows alot about character!!

Josiah 01-30-2009 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1262338)
We are no different then any other people in the exhistance of mother earth. Do not discount any other people. Each believe they are the best. It's how this world thinks. Someday we as many other peoples will cease to exhist as we know ourselves and a new beginning will be on the horizion. We will be reduced to a paragraph in a history book as a people of the past. It is up to us to decide how large that paragraph will be.

The beauty of us as a people is that we can disagree here then dance side by side in the circle. We can break bread together and sit at the same drum.

And when it comes to the final days as a people, we will stand side by side and not face to face.

I agree to disagree but will stand side by side with you as a people!

That is the basics of what our ancestors have taught us!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1262337)
I'm with TMJ on this one...
...perhaps cause I was adopted. There are thousands of us taken during the scoop that would agree. Every race has blood and culture, and those who assimilate into mainstream culture are still of the race they were born to despite how they live their life, although they may not be of the culture they were born to.

I was born NDN, taken and raised by whites, but I was still NDN even though I wasn't part of my culture. When I was a little older I went to become part of my culture and managed to find 2 members of my family (also adopted out). But I was 1/2 NDN then and now. Only difference is I am less assimilated. And yep I said less, don't know if after all that one can become completely unassimilated. To agree with Josiah would be saying that my siblings are less NDN then me, and I don't fell that way

I am waiting this year to get my fully opened adoption papers since all adoption records in canada are being completely opened. This will give me my Mom's full name instead of just the stats on her and I. Then I can take that info and go find her parents. Will this make me more NDN...I don't think so..it will just make me found...but I like to believe that my Grandparents (whoever they may be) know in their hearts that they got grandkids out there they never got to know. Which means we were never completely gone.

Also TKMJ: Bring that truck up over the border go down the 401 past toronto to the other end of the lake and we can all have a timmies break.:thumbsup: Think we could all use one.

add on hope this answers your question brown eyed

I think we are getting caught up in the fact that you believe what I am saying is final and that is what it will always be

One thing I have discovered in my life is when it comes to poeple there is always exceptions to the rule
And Experts only mean that we listen to there educated guesses

Suze you are extremly lucky in the fact that you discovered FAMILY to help you re-emerge in your culture

The Original Question that brought up this Part of the Discussion
is What Makes you an NDN?
As opposed to any other brown-skinned race

I said Blood and Culture makes you an NDN
For you cant have one without the other

I am Half Breed and I have lived in both sides
My Mother's People are originally from Europe and viewed us like RATS
My Father's People viewed us as Kin and we are treated as such
So I have a unique perspective on this I have Two races running through me

What am I???

I was raised among Ndn my whole life

But at what point does one out way the other??
Is it 50/50
25/75
1/32nd
1/64
1/128

We have skirted that issue in this discussion and only talked in general terms about blood.
But I think its valid to this discussion at what point does the blood run so thin that you are more than 99% European and 1%
Does that Blood run so strong that it overrides all other Cultures
IS our Culture so strong that it can do that????

What makes an Indian

That is my point in this
You have to have both the Culture and the Blood to be Ndn
It is a very heavy subject and if you read about the History of Blood Quantums you will see that this has never been fully answered
I saw in the old documents that at one time
only 4/4 degree was qualified
then 1/2 degree and now most tribes its 1/4 or more
Except for the Cherokees of Oklahoma
Which does not have a Blood Quantum merely Lineal Descindancy

Discussion on this???

tsimshian59 01-30-2009 07:29 PM

Well lets say my mother is 1/4 and the last of blood the tribe recognizes. She was born and raised on resevation. I know my lineage. I know our oral stories our culture etc and have never thought of myself as anything but ndn. I have learned our families history from the time I could talk. But I dont have enough blood. Am I ndn or not? I am almost 50 and if not ndn who am I? Lol at this late date I would hate to think my whole life was a lie! lol

TKMJ Productions 01-30-2009 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah (Post 1262398)
I saw in the old documents that at one time
only 4/4 degree was qualified
then 1/2 degree and now most tribes its 1/4 or more
Except for the Cherokees of Oklahoma
Which does not have a Blood Quantum merely Lineal Descindancy

Discussion on this???

Sure! You just stated what the real rule of thumb is as I stated. When the tribes change the quota, things will change.
This would be considered the legal standing. Does it say anything in those old documents about being culturally intact as a requirment?

SuzzeQ4 01-30-2009 08:11 PM

well Jossiah your right we have skirted the issue. I guess cause it is sensitive. I generally think that 1/4 is NDN, 1/8 not so much. But like tsimshian59 there are times when that has been your whole life (emphisis on whole)..what then...I don't know. I say 1/4 with a sting in my heart cause although 4 of my children are 1/2 (like my husband and I), my eldest daughter is 1/4. If she does not father her children with a Native man, they won't (by my definition) be NDN. And while the rest of our family is (by blood) equally part of 2 races (and following one culture...getting your point a bit here) my eldest daughter is equally part of 4 races (races not ethnic groups of the same race). She is our 4 directions baby. What do I do? well (sure this will raise some controversy) I have talked to her about it. She recently had her first boyfriend (not very serious yet thankfully). A white boy, she brought him to a social...he didn't fit in, she broke up with him and I told her that it's not easy for someone to fit into another culture thats why (OMG I'm about to help Josiah's point I just disagreed with...damn!) although people marry outside of thier race sometimes they rarely marry someone who practices another culture. HOWEVER, I still maintain you can be NDN racially (by blood) without being NDN culturally, however I don't believe it can go the other way. Exceptions...well those few legit tribal adoptions...but (listen up wannabes) those who are tend to know where their place is based on their white blood. Basically they tend not to play NDN.

Add on, this site has it's share of wannabes but you know what, it also has it's share of white people who are not ashamed of who they are and are not looking for any gg grandma who was an NDN princess and we tend to get along with those folks here.

Josiah 01-30-2009 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1262436)
Sure! You just stated what the real rule of thumb is as I stated. When the tribes change the quota, things will change.
This would be considered the legal standing. Does it say anything in those old documents about being culturally intact as a requirment?

Well yes it does
It had a long list of requirements
Its why certain tribes have lost there recongition
Or were combined with others
Or was just combined for no patrticular reason
The Cheyenne/Arapaho come to mind in that instance
The Sac and Fox

Cherokee/ Delaware
On and on

For Recongnition as a tribe is a whole other set of rules
I believe 7 different requirements

SuzzeQ4 01-30-2009 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1262436)
Sure! You just stated what the real rule of thumb is as I stated. When the tribes change the quota, things will change.
This would be considered the legal standing. Does it say anything in those old documents about being culturally intact as a requirment?

If it did there would be a fair number of NDN's who were suddenly not NDN, wonder how they would feel about that?

Josiah...Question; Are we only getting part of what you are saying? Cause I'm not sure that you mean that a full blood who doesn't follow their culture needs to be handing in their status card, perhaps that although we are NDN cause that is how we were born, there is another aspect to it.

Josiah 01-30-2009 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1262443)
well Jossiah your right we have skirted the issue. I guess cause it is sensitive. I generally think that 1/4 is NDN, 1/8 not so much. But like tsimshian59 there are times when that has been your whole life (emphisis on whole)..what then...I don't know. I say 1/4 with a sting in my heart cause although 4 of my children are 1/2 (like my husband and I), my eldest daughter is 1/4. If she does not father her children with a Native man, they won't (by my definition) be NDN. And while the rest of our family is (by blood) equally part of 2 races (and following one culture...getting your point a bit here) my eldest daughter is equally part of 4 races (races not ethnic groups of the same race). She is our 4 directions baby. What do I do? well (sure this will raise some controversy) I have talked to her about it. She recently had her first boyfriend (not very serious yet thankfully). A white boy, she brought him to a social...he didn't fit in, she broke up with him and I told her that it's not easy for someone to fit into another culture thats why (OMG I'm about to help Josiah's point I just disagreed with...damn!) although people marry outside of thier race sometimes they rarely marry someone who practices another culture. HOWEVER, I still maintain you can be NDN racially (by blood) without being NDN culturally, however I don't believe it can go the other way. Exceptions...well those few legit tribal adoptions...but (listen up wannabes) those who are tend to know where their place is based on their white blood. Basically they tend not to play NDN.

Add on, this site has it's share of wannabes but you know what, it also has it's share of white people who are not ashamed of who they are and are not looking for any gg grandma who was an NDN princess and we tend to get along with those folks here.

This is why I love coming on this site and actually discussing these kinds of issues

When I first posted this viewpoint I was met
with WRONG
INCORRECT
DO NOT COLLECT 200 DOLLARS
As if a viewpoint can be graded and marked wrong
This is not science project

I was not looking to prove my point or to change anyones OPINION

But to make you think about the real underlying issue
I have been some places and being 1/2 degree is not enough NDN for them (Boarding School)
LOL

And other places were it did not matter what you are


I am not one that believes that just because you have a CDIB with a Blood Quantum on it make you NDN
It just says your Ancestors were...

But I also believe that if you are ndn by blood and have been given the cultural knowledge of your tribe
Then your probably NDN

LOL

Josiah 01-30-2009 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1262446)
If it did there would be a fair number of NDN's who were suddenly not NDN, wonder how they would feel about that?

Josiah...Question; Are we only getting part of what you are saying? Cause I'm not sure that you mean that a full blood who doesn't follow their culture needs to be handing in their status card, perhaps that although we are NDN cause that is how we were born, there is another aspect to it.

no no not at all

I know some fullbloods from my tribe who think of themselfs as Americans
They go to Church
They pay there taxes and as far as they are concerend they are Americans nothing more
They dont go to the social gatherings of other tribal members
They do not believe in the old traditional things and no longer speak the language
They do not teach the Language to there children and instruct them not to hang out with them other ndn kids

Yes they have a CDIB
but since the tribe has never done anything for them they no longer vote as a citizen in Tribal elections

So what are they????

My Father use to harrass them in the mother language and although they knew what he was saying they would not reply in it

Its just something thats been rattling around in my head for a long time

TKMJ Productions 01-30-2009 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah (Post 1262450)
This is why I love coming on this site and actually discussing these kinds of issues

When I first posted this viewpoint I was met
with WRONG
INCORRECT
DO NOT COLLECT 200 DOLLARS
As if a viewpoint can be graded and marked wrong
This is not science project

I was not looking to prove my point or to change anyones OPINION

But to make you think about the real underlying issue
I have been some places and being 1/2 degree is not enough NDN for them (Boarding School)
LOL

And other places were it did not matter what you are


I am not one that believes that just because you have a CDIB with a Blood Quantum on it make you NDN
It just says your Ancestors were...

But I also believe that if you are ndn by blood and have been given the cultural knowledge of your tribe
Then your probably NDN

LOL

Josiah, Let me fix that for you.

Wrong! Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200:lol:

That actually was a pun with the hopes of making you laugh in the spirit of good debate!

I'll let you have Boardwalk and Park Place but I keep the railroads. Have a seat at Free Parking!:tongue:

SuzzeQ4 01-30-2009 11:14 PM

Ok we all know NDN's who live an assimilated life. And they live that for a variety of reason: They like the white life, they have never known an NDN life, sick and tired of all the racism or just not spiritual (because it's hard to seperate the 2 unless you only powwow and then you don't really understand the culture anyway.)

Lets discuss some examples from the middle options and this may be a little sensitive. (think of that statement as a warning label).

So I have already brought up the adoption issue, and yeah I have lucked out, (still got holes to fill to). My sis she doesn't follow our culture, she doesn't feel like she fits in from being raised white. But she doesn't feel that she fits in the white world either. By Josiah's definition I am NDN and she isn't all because we got scooped. It's not easy going back after being raised white...cause ya don't fit in an people sometimes let ya know it.
Next are the generations before my sister and I, the generations that were in residential school, who were also taken for the purpose of being assimilated by the church in the schools. As children they survived in a variety of ways and for some that meant towing the party line.
So while those of us who were scooped and those in the schools were being taught to be (culturally) white , did we cease to be NDN? Or were we more NDN by living through a shared NDN expierence? And if culture makes you more NDN then what about expierences. And which experiences?

TKMJ Productions 01-30-2009 11:32 PM

Josiah,

All my views on the subject were from the tribal definitions as we know.

Here are some personal views I have.
There is a person who just asked a question and claims 1/8 and is not entitled to enrollment but follows the way as the mother did who is an enrolled member. Would I allow this person to dance at my powwow? Yes! Why? Because she follows the way of her mother who is a enrolled member of a tribe. Can this person participate in her mothers tribal celebrations? That would be up to the tribe. Provided she is known to the tribe in a good light and the family holds good status, I'm sure she would be welcomed to participate and be one of the first invited if enrollment status changes.

The person I am speaking of is tsimshian59. At this point in time I will assume this person to be female. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Lakota Wiyan 01-30-2009 11:58 PM

What happened to "REAL NDNs" being respectful and humble? Does being young translate as being rude and over judgemental (sounds like european ways to me)?

I've been a dancer for nearly 30 years now, since I was a teeny little girl. I have seen the "wannabees" and have done my share of laughing and pointing, as well as shaking my head and wondering exactly HOW MANY TIMES have they watched Dances With Wolves! However, because my grandma had a hand in raising me, and because my uncles and aunties are good strong examples of "REAL NDNs" aka LAKOTA Ikceya Wicasa na Wiyan, I would NEVER call people out and publicly disrespect them. Nope, that would make me look foolish and ignorant; and those are usually traits I find in Eurocentric Idiots!!

Josiah 01-31-2009 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1262477)
Josiah,

All my views on the subject were from the tribal definitions as we know.

Here are some personal views I have.
There is a person who just asked a question and claims 1/8 and is not entitled to enrollment but follows the way as the mother did who is an enrolled member. Would I allow this person to dance at my powwow? Yes! Why? Because she follows the way of her mother who is a enrolled member of a tribe. Can this person participate in her mothers tribal celebrations? That would be up to the tribe. Provided she is known to the tribe in a good light and the family holds good status, I'm sure she would be welcomed to participate and be one of the first invited if enrollment status changes.

The person I am speaking of is tsimshian59. At this point in time I will assume this person to be female. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakota Wiyan (Post 1262483)
What happened to "REAL NDNs" being respectful and humble? Does being young translate as being rude and over judgemental (sounds like european ways to me)?

I've been a dancer for nearly 30 years now, since I was a teeny little girl. I have seen the "wannabees" and have done my share of laughing and pointing, as well as shaking my head and wondering exactly HOW MANY TIMES have they watched Dances With Wolves! However, because my grandma had a hand in raising me, and because my uncles and aunties are good strong examples of "REAL NDNs" aka LAKOTA Ikceya Wicasa na Wiyan, I would NEVER call people out and publicly disrespect them. Nope, that would make me look foolish and ignorant; and those are usually traits I find in Eurocentric Idiots!!

In a powwow sense we are
I have never seen anyone ever called out in Powwows in Oklahoma
BUT
I have seen women that were wearing Family designs called out and asked to remove them right there but that is not common and has nothing to do with this discussion

The only place I have seen people check over people before they let dance in Grand Entry was in Georgia But I am not sure if it was just at that Powwow or that was common
It is not common in Oklahoma anyone can parade in Grand Entry here in Oklahoma

Now on this Forum there is lots of calling out and rudeness
Partly because they know they will never actually meet these people in real life

Josiah 01-31-2009 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1262473)
Ok we all know NDN's who live an assimilated life. And they live that for a variety of reason: They like the white life, they have never known an NDN life, sick and tired of all the racism or just not spiritual (because it's hard to seperate the 2 unless you only powwow and then you don't really understand the culture anyway.)

Lets discuss some examples from the middle options and this may be a little sensitive. (think of that statement as a warning label).

So I have already brought up the adoption issue, and yeah I have lucked out, (still got holes to fill to). My sis she doesn't follow our culture, she doesn't feel like she fits in from being raised white. But she doesn't feel that she fits in the white world either. By Josiah's definition I am NDN and she isn't all because we got scooped. It's not easy going back after being raised white...cause ya don't fit in an people sometimes let ya know it.
Next are the generations before my sister and I, the generations that were in residential school, who were also taken for the purpose of being assimilated by the church in the schools. As children they survived in a variety of ways and for some that meant towing the party line.
So while those of us who were scooped and those in the schools were being taught to be (culturally) white , did we cease to be NDN? Or were we more NDN by living through a shared NDN expierence? And if culture makes you more NDN then what about expierences. And which experiences?

I dont know
That is what I am struggling with myself
It goes back to what we were talking about when this all came up

What is a REAL NDN???

Can it be defined???

And Again I am not talking about in the Powwow world
I know lots of tribes that dont Powwow!!!
So for a defintion to work it needs to encompess them also...

Too often people come on here and say I am this or that can I go to a powwow
I say
YES
And by all means go

Can I dance?
Well that is a different now is it not
Some Powwows have started requiring a CDIB to register
Is that the answer???

SuzzeQ4 01-31-2009 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah (Post 1262488)
I dont know
That is what I am struggling with myself
It goes back to what we were talking about when this all came up

What is a REAL NDN???

Can it be defined???

And Again I am not talking about in the Powwow world
I know lots of tribes that dont Powwow!!!
So for a defintion to work it needs to encompess them also...

Too often people come on here and say I am this or that can I go to a powwow
I say
YES
And by all means go

Can I dance?
Well that is a different now is it not
Some Powwows have started requiring a CDIB to register
Is that the answer???

Don't think its the answer. To many variables about who has it and who doesn't. There are 2 powwows 45 min. from my house. One year the one to the west decided you needed your status card to register. There was all kinds of brown skinned black haired NDN's who couldn't register that year like my 2 best buds who are sisters (full blood Anishnawbe), the older one has status the younger one doesn't because they were put in foster care before their parents registered the younger sister. The big out cry came from the community to the North. None of them have status cause they refused to sighn a treaty, since the land was shared the government went to the community to the west who signed. Well there was some anger and old wounds. Now that powwow doesn't require status...but they sometimes ask who your from.

Joe G 01-31-2009 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakota Wiyan (Post 1262483)
What happened to "REAL NDNs" being respectful and humble? Does being young translate as being rude and over judgemental (sounds like european ways to me)?

I've been a dancer for nearly 30 years now, since I was a teeny little girl. I have seen the "wannabees" and have done my share of laughing and pointing, as well as shaking my head and wondering exactly HOW MANY TIMES have they watched Dances With Wolves! However, because my grandma had a hand in raising me, and because my uncles and aunties are good strong examples of "REAL NDNs" aka LAKOTA Ikceya Wicasa na Wiyan, I would NEVER call people out and publicly disrespect them. Nope, that would make me look foolish and ignorant; and those are usually traits I find in Eurocentric Idiots!!

Great words! I think all people could do with a little more respect and humility....Bravo!

steelemagnolia63 01-31-2009 05:24 AM

Ok now we are starting to sound like the NDN police amongst ourselves.... who is and who isn't by a line drawn in the sand... you are only NDN if you practice your culture? You are only NDN if you have a certain amount of blood in your veins???

How can someone who has native blood but didn't know until they were an adult (in the case of adoption or hiding) not be one of us? Should we not be accepting of that person as our brother or sister? Do we fault them for not knowing the ways of their people? Aren't we supposed to help that person along our path? I am not talking about the white folks who want to play at being something they are not.

Do we vote a brother or sister off the island because they live in the white world? How can we take their birthright because they choose to survive in a white world? I use the word survive here because that is what a great number have done, wanting a good life for their familes, I am not saying a better life but a way that provides for their children.

Do we throw our brothers and sisters out because they don't fit someone's profile of what a NDN is? I think not. Because when we start that we are no better than the people that have tried to force us out of existance.

Do you tell a person that has spent years trying to get back the part of themselves that was stripped from them through no fault of their own that they aren't NDN? Once again I am not talking about the white folks.... but the people with native heritage that have lost the teachings along the way.

I am too, guilty of the prove it or move on train of thought at times. I suppose it's from years of hearing the my grandmother was a princess or my grandfather was a chief. I think that all of us are bone weary of that in whatever form that you have heard it in. But I will not cast my brothers and sisters out into the proverbial cold because they aren't practicing. Maybe they need to feel the call of the Creator, the pull of their ancestors, and how can they come home if we shut the doors in thier faces???

Furiously-Fancy 01-31-2009 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakota Wiyan (Post 1262483)
What happened to "REAL NDNs" being respectful and humble? Does being young translate as being rude and over judgemental (sounds like european ways to me)?

I've been a dancer for nearly 30 years now, since I was a teeny little girl. I have seen the "wannabees" and have done my share of laughing and pointing, as well as shaking my head and wondering exactly HOW MANY TIMES have they watched Dances With Wolves! However, because my grandma had a hand in raising me, and because my uncles and aunties are good strong examples of "REAL NDNs" aka LAKOTA Ikceya Wicasa na Wiyan, I would NEVER call people out and publicly disrespect them. Nope, that would make me look foolish and ignorant; and those are usually traits I find in Eurocentric Idiots!!

Well put sis! Truth is.........real NDN's are RESPECTFUL & HUMBLE.

shadowoman 01-31-2009 08:32 AM

may I humbly say my grandpa always said "EVERY FAMILY HAS A HORSE THIEF SOMEWEAR!"


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