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TKMJ Productions 02-01-2009 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 (Post 1262833)
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
send me a set.... I can't wait....

Send me your name and address in a PM. I'll get the kit right out to you with a free gift!

maskdartist 02-02-2009 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ojibwecommodbod (Post 856204)
YOUR DOING IT ALL WRONG! YOU CAN NOW GO BACK TO BOWLING, DART LEAGUE, AND SOFTBALL, AND PLEASE LEAVE THE POWOWS TO US NDNS!


thought it was worthy enough to start a new thread. some come on all you pigmently-challenged powow peoples, what ya gunna say now?

attn moderators! please dont move this thread to the "native issues" section. you let the weirdos keep their posts here, so u should let a young brother speak his mind here.

I get a lot of grief for looking the way I do at Pow wows. Simply becuase my great grandmother fell in love with a non native, I am born into harassment, and dirty looks at most native events. I still speak the Navajo language, regardless of how "watered down" my blood is. (Granted I still have brown eyes, fairly tan skin, and brown hair, and I don't look as white as some of the other mixbloods with blonde hair and blue eyes.)

I get a lot of dirty looks and harassment from people about my regalia. To me, dancing is for honoring my ancestors, and honoring all of their hard work to let their children's children many generations down the line, live a good life. That being said, picking and choosing which of my ancestors to honor would be disrecpectful. My regalia is about 90% Native American, with tribal Germanic rune sets on my belt, and Germanic barbarian style pelt on my head. You have no idea how much harassment I get for that, but in my eyes, they forget the reason we dance in the first place.

You wouldn't beleive the way I am treated simple because my great grandma fell in love with a non native. My grandma can legally own sacred feathers for regalia in California, but since most tribes won't acce[y anyone below 25%, I can't possess any feathers on non-huntable birds. I am sure my great grandma is crying for that, and all of the mixbloods that are ignored, and forgotton by their own people. Expecially the mixbloods that still know the language, and still respect their culture(s).

shadowoman 02-02-2009 07:52 AM

Know the feeling my mom was half breed(she hated being called that) i am the white sheep of family --my daughter is 100%ndn in her heart but cannot get papers -she gets tired of being told she "don't look injun!" she tells them now 'funny you don't look like a jack a********* but sure sound like one" you know who and what you are the whites can't change that --be you !! Be proud !!! And let's pow wow till the sun comes up again --peace

SuzzeQ4 02-02-2009 10:02 AM

The question of blood and culture has been flying around here. After reading the posts by maskedartist followed by shadowman I wonder if there is a third part to the equation that is more subjective. We have (probably) all met people who were 1/8th NDN that just seem as white as can be while others seem as NDN as the rest of us. I am not talking colour cause we all know NDN's in a variety of shades, hell I know a few full bloods that aren't that dark. I think when we meet lighter skins we wonder and then move on...but some leave you wondering. Yeah if your 1/8th then you probably look white cause your 7/8th white. But you look at someone who is half and light, and ofter only their skin looks white, their faces ofter look at least part NDN...and I'm not talking just a famously great set of cheekbones. You read shadowmans kid's posts and you feel like your talking to one of your own kids. But some you talk to or read their posts (as the case may be) and your left rolling your eyes. Maybe its the difference between those who are "NDN in their heart" defensively defending that one little piece vs. those who just are? Yeah I think blood matters...alot...but I guess some people just make you open to the odd exception..maybe cause when you meet them your willing to let a piece of them into your heart cause they just feel like family.

I thought of something this morning before reading these. Don't know how it works in the US but up here if your 1/8th white (7/8th NDN) or 1/16th white (15/16th NDN) your legally considered to be full NDN).

shadowoman 02-02-2009 10:42 AM

Thank you suzzeq4 that made me feel better i needed that today ! When my baby sister moved to alaska a tribal elder asked her what tribe you from-- back east--abanaki or penobscot i'll bet-- he hit it on the nail by looking at her we are abanaki(not federally regonized tribe in us) she is now married to alaskian native (can't spell name of tribe??) and has been formally adopted into tribe there has three beautiful kids who follow the red road peace and thank you

WhoMe 02-02-2009 11:47 AM

Just as beauty is in the eye's of the beholder ... So is being Indian. Let's have your opinion on some hypothetical (possibly real) situations:

Prototype #1. is Cherokee. His great (x 7) grandfather, signed the Dawes Roll in 1830 and he is a card carrying Cherokee. He has never acknowledged his Indian ancestry except to get a college grant. Is he Indian?

Prototype #2 is fiercely proud of his Wea and Michigamia tribal ancestry whom he has geneology papers for, but either tribe is not recognized by the state or federal government. Is he Indian?

Prototype #3 has a father she has never met who died shortly after she was born. The father alledgely was a member of the casino rich Pechanga Tribe of California. The family of the father does not claim her. She has DNA proof she is Indian but this DNA does cannot specify what tribe. Is she Indian?

Prototype #4 has been told her great, great grandmother was a full blood Blackfoot Indian but that this great, great grandmother lived during a time when it wasn't cool to be Indian so she didn't register on the Blackfoot tribal roll and hid the fact she was a full blood Blackfoot Indian. Is she Indian?

and finally,

Prototype #5 is adopted and told by his adopted parents that he comes from a Sioux Indian family from Sioux Ciity, Iowa according to his adoption papers but he has no proof. He has blonde hair. He is raised by a well known powwow family, is a champion fancy dancer and accepted by other Indians on the powwow circuit. Is he Indian?

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowoman (Post 1262907)
Know the feeling my mom was half breed(she hated being called that) i am the white sheep of family --my daughter is 100%ndn in her heart but cannot get papers -she gets tired of being told she "don't look injun!" she tells them now 'funny you don't look like a jack a********* but sure sound like one" you know who and what you are the whites can't change that --be you !! Be proud !!! And let's pow wow till the sun comes up again --peace

People tell me the same thing as your daughter that I look white not NDN. Later those same people ask if I have Cochise in my family line because some of my facial features are the same as Cochies's from the pictures. I never say yes or no to the question. The one thing I do say is that "I didn't know that Cochise looked white!" then walk away.

Just remember that not being able to obtain a tribal ID card does not stop you from seeking your heritage. I know many who are 1/16 or 1/32 who are seeking their true NDN heritage and check every detail to make sure it is accurate. I also know many of the same who claim 1/16 or 1/32 who grasp at straws and accept what people tell them and never check to make sure the information is true. Who is the wanabi???

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe (Post 1263013)
Just as beauty is in the eye's of the beholder ... So is being Indian. Let's have your opinion on some hypothetical (possibly real) situations:

Prototype #1. is Cherokee. His great (x 7) grandfather, signed the Dawes Roll in 1830 and he is a card carrying Cherokee. He has never acknowledged his Indian ancestry except to get a college grant. Is he Indian?

Prototype #2 is fiercely proud of his Wea and Michigamia tribal ancestry whom he has geneology papers for, but either tribe is not recognized by the state or federal government. Is he Indian?

Prototype #3 has a father she has never met who died shortly after she was born. The father alledgely was a member of the casino rich Pechanga Tribe of California. The family of the father does not claim her. She has DNA proof she is Indian but this DNA does cannot specify what tribe. Is she Indian?

Prototype #4 has been told her great, great grandmother was a full blood Blackfoot Indian but that this great, great grandmother lived during a time when it wasn't cool to be Indian so she didn't register on the Blackfoot tribal roll and hid the fact she was a full blood Blackfoot Indian. Is she Indian?

and finally,

Prototype #5 is adopted and told by his adopted parents that he comes from a Sioux Indian family from Sioux Ciity, Iowa according to his adoption papers but he has no proof. He has blonde hair. He is raised by a well known powwow family, is a champion fancy dancer and accepted by other Indians on the powwow circuit. Is he Indian?

Gonna throw a whammie in there:

prototype #6 An NDN, white man, and a black man walk into the civil service office to take a test to obtain a government job. The NDN and black man are entitled by law to receive 10 extra points because of the minority laws of this country. The white man is entitled to no extra points due to his majority. The black man is never questioned to his race when he checks the box but a NDN man, no matter how much he looks like the typical NDN in the movies, he must prove his "NDN hood" with a federal ID card.

Without that card, he receives no extra points but the black man's word is taken as is. Why is the black man's mans word accepted as is, while the NDN must prove his status?

No one ever questions you if you say you are black or white. Why are we always questioned if we say we are NDN???????

shadowoman 02-02-2009 12:30 PM

thank you --shadow

captain 02-02-2009 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1262152)
Ok, so much to say...

tkmj well said on it all. Best lookin parts are definatly NDN and I'm also cool with the white guy who is happy to be white and comes to the circle (when invited) as a white guy. It's just more respectful. Also agree with your definition of NDN

spanish steel good point about other cultures (even white cultures like the Scots and the Irish) sharing similar histories.

night hawk yep sharing is good, but there is a fine line between sharing and taking, like wise between sharing and giving away.

shadowman's kid Think your going to do just fine. Your willingness to listen to your Auntie and look for all the best possible info will keep you safe from the fakes and wannabes who would bestow you with titles and names just so they can have another follower...you will meet these people but my intuition is that you will see them for who they are, 'sides you got family to follow.

captain, it's your turn and I don't agree...
Non-NDN's are welcome into the circle, at times, with respect. If we were exclusive powwows wouldn't be public and they wouldn't have inter-tribals. Sharing who we are doesn't mean giving it all a way. White people come...just be respectful...don't play dress up NDN ...and be thankful for what we do share instead of b*tching that we're not handing you every single thing we have and know.

There is no such thing as no money (anymore)...unless you have a free way I can get to the next powwow, or that the powwow committee can get port a potties, water and many other essentials. I have yet to recieve money that would do more then cover my gas (usually not enough to cover my gas). As for competition powwows (haven't done then but) it is my understanging that if a dancer doesn't place they don't have $ so I have never understood the "just for money" argument there. Paying someone to do a ceremony or what ever is totally different then covering their expenses (or helping with their expences) so that they can come and do what you ask for.

I think the rock, rap, disco argument is week. Asking if we go dress up and dance at the Chinese or Caribbean center or go to square dances would have been a better point...but since we all would have said no I guess you skipped it to compare apples and oranges (no pun inteneded). If I were to ask a white person about their traditional culture they would tell be about historical clothing and dances (the previous mentioned highland games), they would not however tell me that dorky clothes and Celine Dion was a deeply special part of their culture contributing to their sense of cultural identity..

Yea, but that's my opinion and I am entitled to it. Yes my argument may be a little "Week", but yours is by far "weaker" yet. But it does not matter because who gave you and the others the right to speak on behalf of all First Nations on who should and should not partake in certain ceremonies. Take a walk outside and look around, we are not getting the old ways back. Far better to adapt in order to preserve!

steelemagnolia63 02-02-2009 02:39 PM

Good situations put forth by who.... let me give you my answers and (insert disclaimer here) they are my answers not the thoughts of the management....LOL!!! I was always taught that our path, the path of a Native American, is not to become a Indian we are either born one or we are not, but the path is to become a better human being....

Prototype #1. is Cherokee. His great (x 7) grandfather, signed the Dawes Roll in 1830 and he is a card carrying Cherokee. He has never acknowledged his Indian ancestry except to get a college grant. Is he Indian? he is native american by birth, but he is not walking the path of a human being....

Prototype #2 is fiercely proud of his Wea and Michigamia tribal ancestry whom he has geneology papers for, but either tribe is not recognized by the state or federal government. Is he Indian?..... Native American, the govt seems to only want to recognize the tribes that they want to. The more that that wipe off the "books" the more that they will never have to admit that they destroyed...
Prototype #3 has a father she has never met who died shortly after she was born. The father alledgely was a member of the casino rich Pechanga Tribe of California. The family of the father does not claim her. She has DNA proof she is Indian but this DNA does cannot specify what tribe. Is she Indian? .....This one I am not sure about since DNA testing for Native blood is less than 60% accurate. No big time recognized labs will even touch this one.... not even approved by the FDA for genetic prove of native blood.
Prototype #4 has been told her great, great grandmother was a full blood Blackfoot Indian but that this great, great grandmother lived during a time when it wasn't cool to be Indian so she didn't register on the Blackfoot tribal roll and hid the fact she was a full blood Blackfoot Indian. Is she Indian? I think so, but that is my own opinion. I think that if you have a oral or written history that isn't out there in left field, and you can link back to someone that is or was on a tribal record then you are a Native American...
and finally,

Prototype #5 is adopted and told by his adopted parents that he comes from a Sioux Indian family from Sioux Ciity, Iowa according to his adoption papers but he has no proof. He has blonde hair. He is raised by a well known powwow family, is a champion fancy dancer and accepted by other Indians on the powwow circuit. Is he Indian? ...Yes.....

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain (Post 1263026)
Take a walk outside and look around, we are not getting the old ways back. Far better to adapt in order to preserve!

You are correct in what you say that we must adapt to the modern technologies of today. No one is questioning that idea. However to really find who we are, we must take everything we can from our past and move it forward with us in it's original form. Therefore, we build the drum for ceremony and powwow in the way our ancestors did. We don't use an electronic drum kit such as made by Roland or Casio.

Just to show you that we are a progressive people, powwow is not actually traditional. The oldest powwow known was started with the help of my family members in Arlee, Montana as a heritage gathering of all Native American people of the area no matter what their tribe. This is the oldest powwow known and is just over 100 years old. It grew from a handful of people to a gathering of thousands each year. A sound system was introduced to this powwow in the 1950s only because of the size it has grown to.

If a woman was to make true clothing in a traditional way, she would cut the skins with a hand sharpened stone, not a knife or sissors. Then again, is the clothing we ware traditional? After all we all started with no covering and adapted to our surrownings as a necessary thing.

Learning our past and its teachings takes us into our future! Without knowing our past, we have no future!

SuzzeQ4 02-02-2009 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain (Post 1263026)
Yea, but that's my opinion and I am entitled to it. Yes my argument may be a little "Week", but yours is by far "weaker" yet. But it does not matter because who gave you and the others the right to speak on behalf of all First Nations on who should and should not partake in certain ceremonies. Take a walk outside and look around, we are not getting the old ways back. Far better to adapt in order to preserve!

beyond just saying it's weak can you explain why?

Second. The statement that we are not getting the old ways back and should just move on ... and similar stements.

(TKMJ, good points but I want to add something). I hear statements like captains from people and wonder what the hell they are talking about. There certainly is parts of our culture that have been lost but there is LOTS that is still there...practiced by lots of NDN's and their NDN kids and spouses. Just cause you (captain) do know of it happening (like all the time) doesn't mean it isn't happening.

ALSO don't ever remember saying that I was Queen sh1t of all us NDN's.

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1263046)
ALSO don't ever remember saying that I was Queen sh1t of all us NDN's.

:thinking:

If you were Queen Sh1t over all the NDNs then,,,,,,,,,,,,

That would make your daughter,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Princess Pooh! :eeyore:

It's up to us to take the bad and make something good out of it! :thumbsup:

SuzzeQ4 02-02-2009 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1263065)
:thinking:

If you were Queen Sh1t over all the NDNs then,,,,,,,,,,,,

That would make your daughter,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Princess Pooh! :eeyore:

It's up to us to take the bad and make something good out of it! :thumbsup:

AH HA! so there is an NDN princess!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

SuzzeQ4 02-02-2009 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe (Post 1263013)
Just as beauty is in the eye's of the beholder ... So is being Indian. Let's have your opinion on some hypothetical (possibly real) situations:

Prototype #1. is Cherokee. His great (x 7) grandfather, signed the Dawes Roll in 1830 and he is a card carrying Cherokee. He has never acknowledged his Indian ancestry except to get a college grant. Is he Indian?

Prototype #2 is fiercely proud of his Wea and Michigamia tribal ancestry whom he has geneology papers for, but either tribe is not recognized by the state or federal government. Is he Indian?

Prototype #3 has a father she has never met who died shortly after she was born. The father alledgely was a member of the casino rich Pechanga Tribe of California. The family of the father does not claim her. She has DNA proof she is Indian but this DNA does cannot specify what tribe. Is she Indian?

Prototype #4 has been told her great, great grandmother was a full blood Blackfoot Indian but that this great, great grandmother lived during a time when it wasn't cool to be Indian so she didn't register on the Blackfoot tribal roll and hid the fact she was a full blood Blackfoot Indian. Is she Indian?

and finally,

Prototype #5 is adopted and told by his adopted parents that he comes from a Sioux Indian family from Sioux Ciity, Iowa according to his adoption papers but he has no proof. He has blonde hair. He is raised by a well known powwow family, is a champion fancy dancer and accepted by other Indians on the powwow circuit. Is he Indian?

#3 may have her dad on her birth certificate, she is NDN by blood but may struggle to find her culture cause of her Dads family, but by blood she is NDN.

#5 has the blood too. Adoption papers often (but not always) state that your mom and or dad is NDN if they are (mine do), also sometimes where from but not the name you need to get enrolled., but blood is there and documented.

#2, don't know how that works in the US, here there are tribes that don't have status cause they refused to sign a treaty, but the everyone still considers them NDN, especially their family who live on res and have a treaty. And i think up here they are recognized, they just don't have status so I guess I don't feel qualified to answer as to how that works in the US since I don't know enough about it.

#1 & 4, generally I'm going to say not in my books (this is a personal statement, not a decree from Queen sh1t). Said a few posts back there are some who seem to be an exception (but whats a rule if you can't break it) but I am adding to this something else I said in that same post. Those who are 1/8th white (7/8th NDN) are considered full blood legally, so what does that mean in reverse.

Those who are angered by my opinion chill out..it's just my opinion...I don't make the rules...or do I?

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1263076)
Those who are angered by my opinion chill out..it's just my opinion...I don't make the rules...or do I?

That all depends on the size of your stick and the knowlege to use it! :wink_smil

SuzzeQ4 02-02-2009 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1263078)
That all depends on the size of your stick and the knowlege to use it! :wink_smil

Oh I am still excitedly awaiting the arrival of my stick in the mail!

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1263071)
AH HA! so there is an NDN princess!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

YES!!!!!!!! Every daughter of every NDN mother and father is a princess!

It's in the blood lines!

Do you detect a bit of bias here?:bow28:

Josiah 02-02-2009 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe (Post 1263013)
Just as beauty is in the eye's of the beholder ... So is being Indian. Let's have your opinion on some hypothetical (possibly real) situations:

Prototype #1. is Cherokee. His great (x 7) grandfather, signed the Dawes Roll in 1830 and he is a card carrying Cherokee. He has never acknowledged his Indian ancestry except to get a college grant. Is he Indian?

Prototype #2 is fiercely proud of his Wea and Michigamia tribal ancestry whom he has geneology papers for, but either tribe is not recognized by the state or federal government. Is he Indian?

Prototype #3 has a father she has never met who died shortly after she was born. The father alledgely was a member of the casino rich Pechanga Tribe of California. The family of the father does not claim her. She has DNA proof she is Indian but this DNA does cannot specify what tribe. Is she Indian?

Prototype #4 has been told her great, great grandmother was a full blood Blackfoot Indian but that this great, great grandmother lived during a time when it wasn't cool to be Indian so she didn't register on the Blackfoot tribal roll and hid the fact she was a full blood Blackfoot Indian. Is she Indian?

and finally,

Prototype #5 is adopted and told by his adopted parents that he comes from a Sioux Indian family from Sioux Ciity, Iowa according to his adoption papers but he has no proof. He has blonde hair. He is raised by a well known powwow family, is a champion fancy dancer and accepted by other Indians on the powwow circuit. Is he Indian?

#1) There was no Dawes Roll in 1830 perhaps the Emigration Roll in 1835. But this always throws a flag for me as a suspect when they dont know history that is easily looked up...

#2)Short Answer is Yes, other tribes like the Delaware’s fall in this same catagory...

#3)Perhaps DNA proof that is her Father
But otherwise under the law no

#4) No, she falls below the 1/4 Blood Quantum

#5) Is adopted so yes


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