PowWows.com Forums - Native American Culture

PowWows.com Forums - Native American Culture (http://forums.powwows.com/index.php)
-   Pow Wow Talk (http://forums.powwows.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   *attention White People Who Powow!* (http://forums.powwows.com/showthread.php?t=36832)

steelemagnolia63 02-02-2009 06:53 PM

my blonde daughter will tell you that she is a princess.. but she is very spoiled by my Dad and her uncles (they helped raise her)

my brunette daughter would tell you that she is a princess too!!! She was spoiled by my Dad and her uncles too... does there seem to be a pattern here???

my step daughter would tell you that she is not a princess but a goddess.... her father spoiled her....

I of course am a goddess also.. all must worship me.. insert evil laughter here.... LOL

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 (Post 1263107)
my blonde daughter will tell you that she is a princess.. but she is very spoiled by my Dad and her uncles (they helped raise her)

my brunette daughter would tell you that she is a princess too!!! She was spoiled by my Dad and her uncles too... does there seem to be a pattern here???

my step daughter would tell you that she is not a princess but a goddess.... her father spoiled her....

I of course am a goddess also.. all must worship me.. insert evil laughter here.... LOL

Carefull! The air is quite thin up there. You may get a nose bleed!:chairfall

Joe's Dad 02-02-2009 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maskdartist (Post 1262903)
I get a lot of grief for looking the way I do at Pow wows. Simply becuase my great grandmother fell in love with a non native, I am born into harassment, and dirty looks at most native events. I still speak the Navajo language, regardless of how "watered down" my blood is. (Granted I still have brown eyes, fairly tan skin, and brown hair, and I don't look as white as some of the other mixbloods with blonde hair and blue eyes.)

I get a lot of dirty looks and harassment from people about my regalia. To me, dancing is for honoring my ancestors, and honoring all of their hard work to let their children's children many generations down the line, live a good life. That being said, picking and choosing which of my ancestors to honor would be disrecpectful. My regalia is about 90% Native American, with tribal Germanic rune sets on my belt, and Germanic barbarian style pelt on my head. You have no idea how much harassment I get for that, but in my eyes, they forget the reason we dance in the first place.

You wouldn't beleive the way I am treated simple because my great grandma fell in love with a non native. My grandma can legally own sacred feathers for regalia in California, but since most tribes won't acce[y anyone below 25%, I can't possess any feathers on non-huntable birds. I am sure my great grandma is crying for that, and all of the mixbloods that are ignored, and forgotton by their own people. Expecially the mixbloods that still know the language, and still respect their culture(s).

You ever seen any other NDNs with whatever that thing is that you wear on your head?

Do you participate in German events with eagle feathers and wear a roach on your head?

I'm not being rude. Not my nature. It's just that a red flag is thrown up when you start integrating cultures as you are doing?

And can you post a pic of your outfit you wear at powwows. Better yet, can you post what powwow you're going to dance at next? I'd like to see your outfit!

TKMJ Productions 02-02-2009 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maskdartist (Post 1262903)
I get a lot of grief for looking the way I do at Pow wows. Simply becuase my great grandmother fell in love with a non native, I am born into harassment, and dirty looks at most native events. I still speak the Navajo language, regardless of how "watered down" my blood is. (Granted I still have brown eyes, fairly tan skin, and brown hair, and I don't look as white as some of the other mixbloods with blonde hair and blue eyes.)

I get a lot of dirty looks and harassment from people about my regalia. To me, dancing is for honoring my ancestors, and honoring all of their hard work to let their children's children many generations down the line, live a good life. That being said, picking and choosing which of my ancestors to honor would be disrecpectful. My regalia is about 90% Native American, with tribal Germanic rune sets on my belt, and Germanic barbarian style pelt on my head. You have no idea how much harassment I get for that, but in my eyes, they forget the reason we dance in the first place.

You wouldn't beleive the way I am treated simple because my great grandma fell in love with a non native. My grandma can legally own sacred feathers for regalia in California, but since most tribes won't acce[y anyone below 25%, I can't possess any feathers on non-huntable birds. I am sure my great grandma is crying for that, and all of the mixbloods that are ignored, and forgotton by their own people. Expecially the mixbloods that still know the language, and still respect their culture(s).

Excuse me my friend. I have a question and no disrespect is intended:

Assuming both the Native American and Germanic parts of your regalia are accurate, Would you ware the same regalia to a Germanic event simular to a powwow? Please tell us why you would or would not.

shadowoman 02-02-2009 10:14 PM

sounds like with all the princesses around i need to get my hip boots and shovel out :LOL:

Joe G 02-03-2009 01:56 AM

Yeah! wasn't anybody besides me descended from ordinary poor raggedy azzed people? :lol:

maskdartist 02-03-2009 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1263143)
Excuse me my friend. I have a question and no disrespect is intended:

Assuming both the Native American and Germanic parts of your regalia are accurate, Would you ware the same regalia to a Germanic event simular to a powwow? Please tell us why you would or would not.

It's took me a while to think about this, and I can't give an accurate answer. I was not raised as a German, and I don't know anything about the Saxon Tribe's culture. Since I don't know why they wear a regalia, or if they even have any at all, I can't give an answer to the question you asked.

maskdartist 02-03-2009 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe's Dad (Post 1263137)
You ever seen any other NDNs with whatever that thing is that you wear on your head?

Do you participate in German events with eagle feathers and wear a roach on your head?

I'm not being rude. Not my nature. It's just that a red flag is thrown up when you start integrating cultures as you are doing?

And can you post a pic of your outfit you wear at powwows. Better yet, can you post what powwow you're going to dance at next? I'd like to see your outfit!

I don't participate in any German events. It would be really weird for me to do that becuase I wasn't raised as a German. I feel more comfortable around native events since that's how I was raised. (Not quite to the point of waking up before sunrise to pray with corn pollen under my tongue though.) That being said I can't accurately answer your question. Like I said in my erliar post, everything in my regalia is made from things that are very special to me. I get a bit of grief for it sometimes, and people ask me why I choose to wear what I am wearing, but when I explain to them, they are usually accepting. I want to focus on what the entire regalia is supposed to represent, not what is commonly accepted as a regalia in today's culture.

In fact, if you look at pictures from very old Pow wows from about 100+ years ago, you will see a lot of them danced in what would appear to be their normal clothes. The regalia we know today didn't come until later. I beleive the things someone wears should represent why they are dancing. There are some boundaries you shouldn't cross, but I respect those. I think people put too much focus on what a regalia is supposed to look like, and they lost the reason why they are wearing them in the first place.

There are also very few Pow wows I will actually dance at. (The really big ones are really intimidating, and a bit scary to go to if you're a mix blood. I also don't like the idea of being numbered, and judged.) I will be at the Ohlone Pow wow in Pomona California on all of the days. That particular Pow wow has people I know and love helping run it, so I feel more comfortable there. It's really small, so it's more like a family enviornment, and more of a social place than the bigger ones. I can get a picture of it then if you're still interested. Plus, right now my regalia incomplete. A friend of mine is working on a breastplace as a gift for me, and I am working on a new shirt, and pants with my family.

I hope this helps. I really hope I haven't made anyone upset at me either.

shadowoman 02-03-2009 06:24 AM

yep ! yep !me Gramp's was a farmer dirt poor in cash-- not in love !!

SuzzeQ4 02-03-2009 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maskdartist (Post 1263189)
It's took me a while to think about this, and I can't give an accurate answer. I was not raised as a German, and I don't know anything about the Saxon Tribe's culture. Since I don't know why they wear a regalia, or if they even have any at all, I can't give an answer to the question you asked.

I would guess that a lot of Germanic tribal culture is not known. Most would celebrate post Roman aspects of their culture. Perhaps having aspects like this on your regalia would make more sense to people. Think of it this way; when your Great Grandmother married German the Man she married would not have been wearing runes and pelts. This is not the cultural style or beliefs he brought to the family. I imagine that if even the darkest NDN wore this it would raise eyebrows but being that your 7/8th white it just adds to the new age look. Up here there is a strong Metis culture. A blending of the NDN & French. Metis people don't wear regalia that is a mix of NDN & French culture thrown together (& certainly not tribal French culture that they know nothing about). Metis people wear either NDN regalia or Metis Regalia (which is it's own specific style). Just thought that would be a good example. Some German silver pieces would make more sense and you'd have more reason for it then anyone else.
QUESTION: Does the rest of your family (parents, grandparents and siblings) mix their regalia the same way your do when they are at powwow?

TKMJ Productions 02-03-2009 10:41 AM

I grew up on the powwow circuit and have seen a lot of strange things that I have questioned. In the last 10 years, things have gotten really strange. I have seen many who add things to regalia who claim it is what their tribe wore. In some cases it was found to be true.

Take a look at our straight dancers. Many ware bollers or top hats as part. Some even ware the red or blue coat from the revolutionary war. Each piece has a story from the past of the NDN. Each piece was brought to this country as normal ware from Europe or was fashoned here. Each piece can be claimed as "traded for", "spoils of war". or "found on the praire". All part of out past as a whole.

Chances are the reason this man gets "the look" from others is not because his regalia is part of his past but because it does not fit in with the normal scheme and progression of the people. One would not ware a Native bustle to a rennansaince fair. It would look out of place causing questions and whisper talk. It may also cause confrontation.

TKMJ Productions 02-03-2009 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maskdartist (Post 1263189)
It's took me a while to think about this, and I can't give an accurate answer. I was not raised as a German, and I don't know anything about the Saxon Tribe's culture. Since I don't know why they wear a regalia, or if they even have any at all, I can't give an answer to the question you asked.

Fair enough answer and thank you for your responce.

Let's look at your answer. You state that you have no understanding of the Saxon culture of your ancestors from across the sea. Without knowing that culture and how it would relate with the Native American culture, it makes no sence to ware the items. In our culture as we dance, each piece of regalia has a meaning from the past that we understand. One does not ware a piece that he or she can not explain completely and how it relates to the Native American culture. Because you do not understand the meaning behind the Saxon pieces and how they relate to the Native culture of this land, they become unacceptable and are labled wanabi or new age. This is why you are constantly confronted.

At powwow I ware a piece that has no relation to the customs and traditions of the Native American people. It is accepted because I have a firm and true explanation and is accepted everywhere I go. That piece is a Navy cover (BDU style hat) Attached to this cover is a USN Vietnam insigna pin. It belongs to my brother who was in Vietnam and was a P.O.W. I ware this cover in honor of him. The only reason I ware it is because I dance for him because he can not dance for himself. Yes, he is alive but restricted to a VA hospital bed. The item has no relationship to our culture but has meaning to me and my family. Under the circumstances, it is totally acceptable.

ojibwecommodbod 02-03-2009 11:56 AM

No such thing as tradition?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by captain (Post 1262066)
WOW! This thread is an interesting piece....to say the least. You know I've always been of the thought that the circle, be it pow-wow, rounddance, etc. is meant for all people. It was a gift from the Creator to all First Nations people, who in turn have, through their nature, shared and taught others the beauty of said circle. It is a very small part of educating and, having others accept our beautiful culture. How many of the individuals that speak against denying that opportunity to others, on this forum, have taken the opportunity to join in dances and song (eg. rock n' roll, rap dancing and singing, country music singing and dancing, reggae, disco (long time ago, hee hee, etc)) and were told by the people whose culture that particular genre' arose from. that they could not?
You see , I'm of the thought proccess that if we do not allow our dances to expand and evolve, these practices will not be around for future generations to enjoy, like we do. I know, I know, "Tradition"! Words that are thrown around rather loosely in today's Indian world. Just like the term "Elder". We all get old, but only a few achieve elder status. My late father told me a long time ago that once the mighty dollar was involved in any type of "traditional practice", there was NO such thing as "tradition" within that event. As far back as I can remember, the mighty dollar has been a part of the pow-wow circle. To be quite honest, I am quite excited that the white people, latinos, orientals, African Americans, etc. are taking an interest in our song and dance. It can only mean that, the opportunities for the next generation will be more immense. Like taking our music to showcase to the rest of the world, like say the Grammy Awards. Hey wait, thats already happening because we are educating and sharing our song and dance with others. What next? Maybe stage performances, like say rock concerts with our musicians delivering heart rendering performances. Oh wait, that's also happening now. So you see, by allowing others into the circle and sharing with them, we are only opening bigger doors that lead to greater opportunity for our future generations.

PS. Before anyone goes off on a tangent about what I have shared, I should let you know that I speak, read and write my traditional language. I have also been honored to be a part of a circle for all my life that does not shun others, but instead accepts others.

Tansi! I greet you with respect and admiration for your group and all you have accomplished. I do however, question your logic and reasoning. So you are saying once money enters the picture, tradition leaves?

So if someone gets paid to teach their "traditional" language, there is no tradition left? Is that language still traditional?

I see your point regarding including others into our social celebrations, but what about when these outsiders start and hold their own celebrations where none of us are present? I'll use your own words as an example:

"Is this person serious? And using her name as "Thunderbird"! More like "Crow" or "Magpie" because all of her philosophies are a bunch of pie, "cowpie" that is! Very convoluted! Once I truly looked at their picture, I had no doubt why she(they) were so misled on their philosophies...they look like "white" women. NO WOMAN SHALL EVER SIT AT OUR MOSOM MISTIKWASKIHK (GRANDFATHER DRUM) AND BEAT ON HIM WITH A "MALLET"! That's what we have been taught to refer to our drum as, Grandfather Drum not Grandmother Drum. We were taught this since we were children and our group has been around for the past 25 yrs. "

So are your teachings no longer traditional since money came into the circle. Is singing and dancing as our grandfathers and grandmothers did no longer traditional? Come on man.

Furthermore, you said:

"I can honestly tell you in the 26 yrs. that I have been drumkeeper for NC, I have never sat at our drum with a person of the opposite sex. We are quite adamant about females even sitting on any of the chairs while we are not singing or cutting accross our circle once the drum is set up. As far as I am concerned, if certain tribes or drum groups want females to sing on their big drum, thats up to them, but the way we were taught was that if a female wishes to sing, she sings as a backup singer to the males. Even in the rounddance cirlce, the females do not pound on the handdrums, but lend their pretty voices as back-up to the males. This has been the way I was taught and how it has been at rounddances and powwows in Cree country for the past 50 yrs. since I have been around, and the other night, at the rounddance up here it was still the same. Think it always will be!

PS. Perhaps the lady had her facts mixed up with some one else. No problem though, I guess if one wants to be taken seriously, you have to advocate that you have the support of the groups that are strongest in the circle "

So now that singing and powwow/round dance is no longer "traditional," will you be allowing women to sit at your drum with their mallets? Do our teaching lose value because of money? Of course not.

I mean no disrespect here, I am just trying to figure out where you are coming from. Tradition doesn't exist when money is a factor, unless its your teachings? The fact is you won't change YOUR traditions regardless of money being involved.

That is the point of this thread. If white people want to grace our arenas with their presence and do so in a respectable manner, I think most of us can be accepting of that. Its the wannabes who hold powwows with nothing but wannabes participating, the ones who have drum groups and preach teachings that they pull out of their azzes. The ones who dominate the content of this site. These are the ones who need to know that not all of us think it is ok. Sure they will carry on regardless of what you or I or anybody types here. But at least they will know that we (or some of us anyway) think they are full of ch!t. Again I mean no disrepect to you captain. I am merely asking for further elaboration behind your philosophies regarding the definition of tradition.

Good luck at the Grammys! That award is long overdue for your group! Rock on brother! Hiy Hiy!

TKMJ Productions 02-03-2009 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe G (Post 1263186)
Yeah! wasn't anybody besides me descended from ordinary poor raggedy azzed people? :lol:

I was raised the same way but I now have an attatude!
Got it at Walmart on sale! :thumbsup:

No one can resist the little smiley face!

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...d/bigsmile.jpg

maskdartist 02-03-2009 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1263263)
Fair enough answer and thank you for your responce.

Let's look at your answer. You state that you have no understanding of the Saxon culture of your ancestors from across the sea. Without knowing that culture and how it would relate with the Native American culture, it makes no sence to ware the items. In our culture as we dance, each piece of regalia has a meaning from the past that we understand. One does not ware a piece that he or she can not explain completely and how it relates to the Native American culture. Because you do not understand the meaning behind the Saxon pieces and how they relate to the Native culture of this land, they become unacceptable and are labled wanabi or new age. This is why you are constantly confronted.

At powwow I ware a piece that has no relation to the customs and traditions of the Native American people. It is accepted because I have a firm and true explanation and is accepted everywhere I go. That piece is a Navy cover (BDU style hat) Attached to this cover is a USN Vietnam insigna pin. It belongs to my brother who was in Vietnam and was a P.O.W. I ware this cover in honor of him. The only reason I ware it is because I dance for him because he can not dance for himself. Yes, he is alive but restricted to a VA hospital bed. The item has no relationship to our culture but has meaning to me and my family. Under the circumstances, it is totally acceptable.

I am going to try to answer Suzze's question as well as yours. No one else in my family dances that I know of. I am the only son/cousin on this side of my family. I have a few second cousins, but they aren't in to their culture.

To answer TKMJ's question, the parts of the regalia that honor my other side of the family are explainable. I wouldn't just throw anything on my regalia simpley because it's appropriate to the subject I dance for.

Sorry for the short replies, I have a lot to get done today, and I didn't want to leave you guys in the dark. <3

crazywolf 02-03-2009 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1263263)
Fair enough answer and thank you for your responce.

Let's look at your answer. You state that you have no understanding of the Saxon culture of your ancestors from across the sea. Without knowing that culture and how it would relate with the Native American culture, it makes no sence to ware the items. In our culture as we dance, each piece of regalia has a meaning from the past that we understand. One does not ware a piece that he or she can not explain completely and how it relates to the Native American culture. Because you do not understand the meaning behind the Saxon pieces and how they relate to the Native culture of this land, they become unacceptable and are labled wanabi or new age. This is why you are constantly confronted.

At powwow I ware a piece that has no relation to the customs and traditions of the Native American people. It is accepted because I have a firm and true explanation and is accepted everywhere I go. That piece is a Navy cover (BDU style hat) Attached to this cover is a USN Vietnam insigna pin. It belongs to my brother who was in Vietnam and was a P.O.W. I ware this cover in honor of him. The only reason I ware it is because I dance for him because he can not dance for himself. Yes, he is alive but restricted to a VA hospital bed. The item has no relationship to our culture but has meaning to me and my family. Under the circumstances, it is totally acceptable.

Boozhoo niji,

You write with a lot of wisdom, I too have seen a lot of this, and sometimes I ask about it, not because it is different but because I know something holds significance. It also holds true that our color guard here on the rez wears their camos in the grand entry, because they were all warriors, in the white mans army yes but in battles they fought wearing that same uniform to protect us here at home.

You brought a lot of light to this discussion miigwetch.

Derek

TKMJ Productions 02-03-2009 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maskdartist (Post 1263474)
I am going to try to answer Suzze's question as well as yours. No one else in my family dances that I know of. I am the only son/cousin on this side of my family. I have a few second cousins, but they aren't in to their culture.

To answer TKMJ's question, the parts of the regalia that honor my other side of the family are explainable. I wouldn't just throw anything on my regalia simpley because it's appropriate to the subject I dance for.

Sorry for the short replies, I have a lot to get done today, and I didn't want to leave you guys in the dark. <3

I understand that those part are explainable but how do they fit into the Native American culture? That is what you need to explain. If you cant explain why, then they should not be worn.

Case in point:
There is a Cherokee woman who dances here in Ohio. She is 1/4 verified Cherokee and the balance a mix of Scottish and English. On her cloth dress she wares many ribbons of assorted colors. Very tastefull for its design. There is one ribbon that doesnt fit but she wares it proudly. That ribbon has the design of her European clan from her Celt heritage. Her tartan. A plad design. In the days or early cloth and ribbon trading among the whites and Native Americans, solid cloth ribbons were common place. Plad and multi colored ribbons were very prized because of the coloring among our women and very hard to get but could be traded for 300 years ago in this land. Totally acceptable. But yet she has chosen this ribbon because of her people from the other side of the sea.

With the understanding of that ribbon being highly prized form trading, it is acceptable. Do you see where i am coming from?

steelemagnolia63 02-03-2009 07:25 PM

I wear a brooch that is a thistle, it is a nod to my Scot heritage also to my husbands' favorite uncle that passed away a few years back that was from Scotland. It is also my husband's favorite flower, he thinks that I don't remember when we started dating that he told me that. I am looking for something that is Irish to add very soon. I have a couple of ideas in mind to add to my brooches. These things means something to me, and my husband. Brooches are also something that Native Americans traded for and were highly prized by native women. So while they aren't exactly a Native American item, like my medicine bag, knife, awl and needle cases. They are something that our people liked and used for decorations.

TKMJ Productions 02-03-2009 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 (Post 1263517)
husband. Brooches are also something that Native Americans traded for and were highly prized by native women. So while they aren't exactly a Native American item, like my medicine bag, knife, awl and needle cases. They are something that our people liked and used for decorations.

Hang on there a second. Just because broaches and other bangles were prized by our women does not mean you can pick one that suits your fancy and go with it. The sparkle dangle must meet some requirments.

Is the item of the period of your regalia? Would that item be traded at that time to a NDN?

Every item must be checked for accuracy to fit the look and time. We're not making a fashion statement here.

SuzzeQ4 02-03-2009 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions (Post 1263537)

Is the item of the period of your regalia? Would that item be traded at that time to a NDN?

Every item must be checked for accuracy to fit the look and time. We're not making a fashion statement here.

I agree. I think this is the key. Also in Steelemagnolia's case she could consider is this something my white ancestory would have given to their NDN spouse or child.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright 2006, PowWows.com, LLC