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Old 12-08-2008, 08:24 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Dancin'~Diva View Post
Well... after readin all 5 pages of this thread it saddens me somewhat, to think that that is what native people think of Europeans dancing this way and taking an interest in your life style,.

I agree with most of what has been said but not by the Europeans that have had their pennies worth.

I take what i do very seriously, and still find it hard to believe that some people come along and call themselves jingle dancers, then 3 years down the road they no longer do it, then proceed to sell their regalia..

Not all of the european community do this to take the pish, but because we love your way of life, not all of us are as bad as you have witnessed, and even I could not watch the Hoop Dancer,!! just so wrong,...

For a few that are bad, there are some that are good. We are not clubs, or dance troops, just regular people, that meet at pow wow's, meet the old and the new ,, catch up on life, celebrate life, mourn life and dance accordingly. Generally have a good time and enjoy ourselves.
All pow wow's are followed to a tradition that is adhered to. So we are not all bad..
And who's tradition are you adhering to? Yours?
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:35 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Dancin'~Diva View Post
So this clearly doesn't include african americans, that i have seen at pow wow's then in the STATES!

Many of the Blacks you see at powwows have an NDN mother or father. I'm not talking of the ones who play NDN, also. Did you by any chance stop and ask them if they were part NDN or were they just playing NDN too?

Where's the
Chock-lack-chick when I need her!



Something to do with us being white i suppose. So someone who has a link to the native culture going back 5 generations it not welcomed then i take it?

Do you know who it was that took your land and tried to commit genocide on your people?



The thing is it goes on, and there are a fair few natives that attend the european powwow's, many return year after year, so we can't be doing too much worng or it would be pointed out there and then,.
We do it because we enjoy it, and no one is going to stop them doing it.. It has been going on longer then 70 years or more and i don't think it is about to stop.
Sorry if you are a tad annoyed, but it is in no way meant to be disrespectful to any one or the culture.
Huh?
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:51 AM   #103
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Awwww J. D. I prefer the pic of you watching TV. LMAO
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:10 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancin'~Diva View Post
So this clearly doesn't include african americans, that i have seen at pow wow's then in the STATES!
Something to do with us being white i suppose. So someone who has a link to the native culture going back 5 generations it not welcomed then i take it?

The thing is it goes on, and there are a fair few natives that attend the european powwow's, many return year after year, so we can't be doing too much worng or it would be pointed out there and then,.
We do it because we enjoy it, and no one is going to stop them doing it.. It has been going on longer then 70 years or more and i don't think it is about to stop.
Sorry if you are a tad annoyed, but it is in no way meant to be disrespectful to any one or the culture.
Some of those African people are mixed NDN (don't judge based on appearence) Most NDN's don't approve, especially those who live their culture, however there are many assimilated types willing to sell their culture. As for NDN's attending European wannabe powwows (for any reason other then selling soul cause they were paid to be there) You've been fooled by a wannabe.

You are disrespectful here to the feelings of our people which just proves that you don't know what your doing and have no right to do so! My usual point about it being racist to dress up in black face was already made, yet you don't rtespect our people enough to stop doing this to us.

I could go on, worse you could continue to disrespect our opinions by replying, and further arguing with us, I hope you don't. You can however read other similar posts. "white gal question" is similar. that doesn't mean I think you should argue this point there, Just hoping you'll get it through your head we think your disrespectful. Want to respect us? learn our history, observe what we share and then go on living your white life cause that's how the creator made you

As for the comment "a tad bit annoyed" do ya hear yourself? Ya gotta know your being disrespectful cause I bet your Mother wouldn't let you talk to her like that!

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Old 12-08-2008, 09:21 AM   #105
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Quote:
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Awwww J. D. I prefer the pic of you watching TV. LMAO
I had to take my pony out for a walk!
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:25 AM   #106
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I had to take my pony out for a walk!
Dang JD thats some tough neighbourhood if ya need your shield just to walk the horse
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:31 AM   #107
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I thought this thread had died long time ago
but somebody brought it back
Dang and fiesty too
They sound like Order of the Arrow only European Style!!!
LOL
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:59 AM   #108
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And who's tradition are you adhering to? Yours?
All native american traditions.

i'm not getting into a heated debate about this. We know what we are doing is wrong in yours eyes, but what is the harm is it doing if we follow the traditions and etiquette ?

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Old 12-08-2008, 05:18 PM   #109
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dancing diva

don't reply to me again on private message like a coward! My feelings on this subject are not unique, as this and many threads have proven. Some random NDN guy can't give a white girl with 1 ancient drop of native blood the right to be a jingle dancer, that permission comes from specific people, I don't have it (& I'm NDN, of course i haven't asked the proper people) and neither do you. get over it, you ain't changing our minds, there is probably only one NDN on this board who would accept you as a dancer, one out of all of us. Just cause you find the one odd NDN looking to make white people happy doesn't mean you got proper permission. you are white and what you are doing does make me angry! I have great respect for this dance,these dancers and where this dress comes from. I sell regalia and bead work to provide for my family, but you know what you won't see on my website? The jingle dresses I have helped jingle dress dancers make. I am not Anishnawbe (I'm Lakota) I respect these Women & what they have shared with us, please do the same AND STOP PLAYING NDN, especially in a jingle dress.
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:54 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
don't reply to me again on private message like a coward! My feelings on this subject are not unique, as this and many threads have proven. Some random NDN guy can't give a white girl with 1 ancient drop of native blood the right to be a jingle dancer, that permission comes from specific people, I don't have it (& I'm NDN, of course i haven't asked the proper people) and neither do you. get over it, you ain't changing our minds, there is probably only one NDN on this board who would accept you as a dancer, one out of all of us. Just cause you find the one odd NDN looking to make white people happy doesn't mean you got proper permission. you are white and what you are doing does make me angry! I have great respect for this dance,these dancers and where this dress comes from. I sell regalia and bead work to provide for my family, but you know what you won't see on my website? The jingle dresses I have helped jingle dress dancers make. I am not Anishnawbe (I'm Lakota) I respect these Women & what they have shared with us, please do the same AND STOP PLAYING NDN, especially in a jingle dress.
Those that already do it , will never stop!
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:44 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Dancin'~Diva View Post
Those that already do it , will never stop!
see this is the white is right attitude that we are sick of, the one that is responsible for us wishing you'd all go away. and yet you wonder why we don't welcome you & this attitude? You know there are white people out there who respect how we feel on these matters, they are the ones who get welcomed into our communities.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:52 AM   #112
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I don't want to be hurtful, but I am embarrassed, and I'm a non- native but lived with the Native Community for many yrs. I may be fashinated with cultural traditions, but I leave it to that Community to keep up their own traditions. I would wonder if I found NDN's on a hill somewhere dressing in trad. regalia of the Swedish Inuit, singing their songs, etc. I know this post is old, but I am too flabbergasted to shut up.
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:22 AM   #113
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I don't want to be hurtful, but I am embarrassed, and I'm a non- native but lived with the Native Community for many yrs. I may be fashinated with cultural traditions, but I leave it to that Community to keep up their own traditions. I would wonder if I found NDN's on a hill somewhere dressing in trad. regalia of the Swedish Inuit, singing their songs, etc. I know this post is old, but I am too flabbergasted to shut up.
we would look like idiots!! Guess thats why we don't do it.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:30 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancin'~Diva View Post
All native american traditions.

i'm not getting into a heated debate about this. We know what we are doing is wrong in yours eyes, but what is the harm is it doing if we follow the traditions and etiquette ?

Centreland Singers
Without any knowledge and just mimicing this is what comes about:
http://www.powwow-kalender.de/bands/...s/gigglies.htm
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:50 AM   #115
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then again,,,

Listening to the singers (non- NDN) the spirit is just not there! I may be judgeamental, but I think it takes an NDN to sing, sit around the sacred drum and (I'm sorry to crack it, folks) and dance the dances. There are extremely few exceptions, and these folks are often brought in to the community or grew up there. Everthing else is a pale copy. Many may not know better, but when I see some of the replies even after hearing u guys out, then that's just pure disrespect. Remember though- the sacred protects itself.
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:35 PM   #116
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Quote:
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Without any knowledge and just mimicing this is what comes about:
Gigglies
Apparently they are not following etiquette or tradition!
Also those are some damn ugly "ribbon shirts".
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:23 PM   #117
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Thank you to all who posted

I have really gotten alot out of this post. (I can't really say I enjoyed it, but I did learn) At first reading, I was as offended and outraged as any other Native person. How dare they take what is rightfully ours and parade around like they know what it is to be Native? But the more I read and the more I thought and really looked at myself and my own life I realized I am nothing but a hypocrite.

I love Pizza and Fettucine Alfredo and Chinese food. I love to cook chinese food. Maybe that's disrespectful to the Chinese because I'm not Asian or Italian.

I love to bead and to sew. But when I sat down and looked at my beads..... they were made in the Czech Republic. What would have happened if the Italian and Eastern European glass workers said, "This is ours. You have no rights to use these things and adapt them and make them your own."

The fabric I sew with was definitely not made by Native hands. Yet there is a long tradition for it's use in our traditional clothing. I see women using chinese silk for blouses, shirts, and dresses. Same with Sari material. What if the Indians (from India) said, "I don't like how you're using our designs and our sari fabric in a non-traditional way. It isn't meant to be cut and sewn." I look at my straight dance suit made from French silk ribbon. Is this Native? Is it French? I can't tell now.

My last confession is I LOVE MARTIAL ARTS! I love Jet Lee movies and I train with a man from China along with a Crow and a Cheyenne from Lame Deer. I feel very blessed he has chosen to share this aspect of his culture with me. Martial Arts isn't just a hobby, it's a way of life, as anyone who has had a true Master as an instructor can tell you. It contains deep historical, philosophical and religious meanings, ceremonies, and steeped in traditional culture, much as aspects such as dance are in our own culture.

As an example, I attended an Eye dotting ceremony for a Chinese Lion used by martial artists during the Lion Dance. They explained the purpose for every single item, color and thing that was done and taught me that it all has a historical and traditional meaning to them. I was deeply appreciative for having been allowed to learn.

Ironically, my sifu is fascinated with American Indian culture. He LOVES Native People! I feel very fortunate to have studied with a man who grew up in that way of life and can pass that on. But how many other Martial Arts studios are there that just teach kicking and punching and not what is behind it? I feel that my life would be diminished had I not been able to share this part of another's culture and just feel grateful that he doesn't feel about Chinese culture the way I do about my own culture.

Does that mean I wish I were Chinese or that I'm ashamed of my Native heritage? No, of course not.

Because I eat Fettucine does it mean I want to become and Italian? No.

I'm very proud of who I am as a Native American man and nothing will ever change or supplant how I was raised and the things I hold about myself as a Native. But I feel I'm being a hypocrite for being offended by others' taking these things and finding value in them when I've done the same with other cultures.

We have so little left of our culture that we hold on so tightly to what is left to us. Our languages are in threat of becoming extinct within a couple generations and we're madly scrambling to teach our own young what it means to be Cherokee, or Kiowa, or Osage.

There's a prophecy told at the Grounds and also told in varying forms by people from other Nations that talks about someday, all people coming to our fire to learn. Some say that all people will come under the Law of Great Peace. I've heard other old folks speak similarly.

Maybe rather than shutting the door to them, we should rather say, "What you're doing is a small step, a small piece of who we are. If you want to do this, come to my home, let my mom cook for you, take medicine with us, help us when we do things for our community. If you want to learn, then learn the proper way."

I've seen elders do this. I think they know something I have not yet learned. They are the ones I hold up as examples of truly living our way of life. Thse old ladies and men are the ones you see who always have something good to say, never put bad things out there about other people, always seem to content and.....peaceful. I know all of you who come from traditional communities know people like this. They do what I cannot, in my anger and hurt, do myself. When I see these things, see people not from my tribe doing things, I get angry.

As an example, we went to a dance where my uncle was head singer. It was in a place where there aren't many Native folks. One of my other uncles (Everyone calls him Catfish) also went to help out. During the course of the dance I saw some CRAZY things. I saw them hold a "sweat" with a pup tent and a space heater. I saw women dressed in "buckskin" dresses made from what you cover car seats with. During a stomp dance presentation I saw a man come out wearing cans, yet dressed as a man was. (he didn't know that shaking shells was a woman's thing) The whole time we were there I was ready to blow my top and flip out. My uncle never once raised his voice or joined in downing these "wannabe's" He always had a smile for them and when I asked him all he said was, "I'm not from here. These aren't my ways. Maybe they don't have anyone to teach them. Maybe we should feel sorry for them because they weren't as lucky as we were to grow up this way." I tried to get there with him, I honestly did, but I still battle with that anger and sense of outrage when I see ways that our elders sacrificed and dies to maintain being *******ized like this. But maybe I should take a different view.

I don't post this to offend anyone and hope I'm not speaking before others more knowledgeable than myself.
I ask for advice.
I ask for guidance.
I don't know what the answers are.

Thank You
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:07 AM   #118
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:53 AM   #119
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i think it started long time ago (60/70) europe (w-ger/gdr) with old western movies. the native culture was just fascinating for the people. the dreamed of a free life away from the daily routine. they establish clubs, made camps in old dresses. maybe they just played indians. they learned many things about the old culture (making closes, beatworks, ....). after the wall went down came new medias(in the gdr), and hey natives still alive and they still have a new-old culture. they made contacts to real natives. in 1990 started the first "eastgerman winterpowwow". and it moves on and they still learn.
i think it is a european phenomenon. it is the same thing why people are interested in the middle age (knigths), Vikings,....
ok, europe has a long history but today i think there is no real cultere left.

ok maybe it is just a short version of the story

with respect
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Old 03-08-2009, 04:52 PM   #120
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Thank you tribaltagz!

@ SuzzeQ4

Do you know anybody from the Gigglis? No?

Oh-- I think , or bettter- I know- they all are working hard in their jobs- they all want the best for their families. Don't you about your own family?
I understand, that you don't like us white ones who found a fascinating world outside the own plate....ok

But when I read your comments- I think- and maybe a lot of NDN women will agree- you are thowing mud in their face also- although they are well respected drummers in their own communities.

Greetings from Elke, shortly back from Prague Powwow last weekend.--- no- I'm no Native AND don't want to be
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