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Old 04-12-2004, 11:09 AM   #41
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More BS from Indian Country Today

:Flame
http://www.indiancountry.com/?1081523424

Lumbee v. Cherokee debate aside, do you think that Indian Country Today could at least make an attempt to be fair, objective and accurate?

Not once has the EBCI said anything about concerns about competition from a Lumbee casino. That's pure speculation.

The Lumbee are roughly the same distance from us as the Mississippi Choctaw, who run two casinos.

As for competition, the Catawba and Poarch Creek are more likely to take a share of our market than the Lumbee.

But why go through the trouble of behaving like responsible journalists when you can sensationalize everything and demonize those "greedy mountain hicks" known as the EBCI.

Yuk foo Indian Country Today. I instead urge everyone to read real Indian newspapers like News From Indian Country.
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Old 04-12-2004, 01:20 PM   #42
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badmutha.....do you honestly think these wahoos have any similarities to groups like the lumbees? b/c from your earlier posts, it seems like you want to lump us all together.....you act like we're a bunch of white people posing as indians?

please don't compare us to wahoo groups who have no history or legitimate claims...it's presumptious and insulting....

i agree with a few of your points but don't like the way you present your argument
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Old 04-12-2004, 01:28 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
that's kinda what I said there Lumbee dancer......just not as detailed
I wasn't trying to be a smart a$#or anything, just elaborating a little bit. Thats all!

:agree?:
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Old 04-12-2004, 07:01 PM   #44
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Lets take a look!

Distributive justice against Lumbee recognition

Posted: April 09, 2004 - 11:08am EST
by: Jerry Reynolds / Washington D.C. correspondent / Indian Country Today

WASHINGTON - By any standard of abstract justice, the Lumbee of North Carolina answered critics of their case for full federal recognition at a packed hearing of the Committee on Resources in the House of Representatives April 1. The occasion was H.R. 898, the Lumbee Recognition Act.

Not only did the Lumbee refute every argument brought against them on the merits, but they also had to argue their way into the hearing room. With space limited, the Eastern Cherokee delegation, principal opponents of full federal recognition for the Lumbee, hired people to hold them a place in line, according to an attorney for the Lumbee, Arlinda F. Locklear, and others present at the pre-hearing dispute. For a while it seemed that the very subjects of the hearing, Lumbee people, would not be allowed in the room because of overcrowding. But here at least, justice prevailed and the Capitol Police spent an hour enforcing it.

With that small struggle for distributive justice won, much larger ones loom for the Lumbee. From the testimony April 1, H.R. 898 will boil down to a simple question of distributive justice. As opposed to the body of reasoned argumentation that determines our view of what is just in the abstract, distributive justice asks how resources are most fairly distributed. The simple question of distributive justice in the Lumbee case is this - can Indian country afford the full federal recognition of 50,000 Lumbee, making it the third-largest tribe in the nation?

The Eastern Cherokee and their allies in North Carolina think not. They fear the Lumbee will install a casino along Interstate 95, the primary north-south artery of the eastern seaboard. An I-95 complex in Robeson County, N.C., home of the Lumbee, would be within easy reach of Fort Bragg, Raleigh-Durham, Chapel Hill, Pinehurst, Myrtle Beach, S.C., and South Carolina’s military installations. Even without the lure of a casino, 39,000 vehicles a day use I-95 in Robeson County. A casino there is apt to be a billion dollar operation annually, according to one expert. The Lumbee deny any plans for a casino, but no future federally recognized council would be bound by the deliberations of its predecessor councils; and so many consider a Lumbee casino a foregone conclusion if Congress confers recognition.

"This is a major concern in my state," said William J. Brooks Jr., president of the North Carolina Family Policy Council. "North Carolina remains one of 11 states in the nation without a state lottery, and our citizens and state lawmakers have traditionally resisted gambling at almost every opportunity. The only forms of gambling that are legal in North Carolina are bingo, limited video gambling with no cash payouts, and the Harrah’s Cherokee Casino in the mountains of western North Carolina, which offers only bingo and video-based machines.

"In fact, the Cherokee casino … is somewhat difficult to get to, not being on an interstate or other major highway. Nevertheless, this facility boasts about 3.3 million annual visits, making it the largest private tourist attraction in North Carolina."

The council is neutral on full Lumbee federal recognition, Brooks said. It favors a moratorium on gambling expansion in the United States, and Brooks testified to that effect at the hearing.

Eastern Cherokee Chairman Michell Hicks soft-pedaled any concern over a Lumbee threat to the tribe’s monopoly on North Carolina casino gambling. His concern was with the federal budget. H.R. 898 "could cost more than 682 million in taxpayer dollars over four years and further decrease the funds existing tribes and Indians receive."

United Southern and Eastern Tribes, a 24-tribe coalition, joined the Eastern Cherokee in opposition to H.R. 898. Tim Martin, USET executive director, cited a recent Congressional Budget Office study documenting the adverse budgetary impact a Lumbee-sized tribe would have on other tribes. Like most tribes east of the Mississippi River, the USET tribes tend to have small populations and a limited land base. Like small tribes and many other tribes and tribal organizations nationwide, the organization has already expressed concerns about cutbacks in the BIA direct-service budget.

Non-financial arguments against the Lumbee claim fell by the wayside under questioning from Lumbee allies on the committee, chiefly Reps. Nick Rahall, D-W.Va., and Eni Faleomavaega, at-large member for American Samoa. (Sen. Elizabeth Dole, R-N.C., a leading advocate of Lumbee recognition, testified in favor of H.R. 898, but as a senator in the House forum she could not pose questions.)

The Lumbee, recognized by the state of North Carolina in 1885, are already a federally recognized tribe, but the 1956 congressional legislation came without the financial and other entitlements enjoyed by other federally recognized tribes. The Lumbee have described themselves under other names than Lumbee, but they have done so only on the initiative of the Interior Department, according to Locklear.

To recognize the Lumbee now by an act of Congress would indeed constitute an exception to the BIA recognition process established in 1978. But how much of an exception can it be when only 16 tribes have ever been recognized by that process? Martin admitted under questioning that only six USET tribes have been through the federal recognition process. Also under questioning, Hicks acknowledged that the Eastern Cherokee were federally recognized by an act of Congress.

In any case, the Lumbee are considered worthy of exception due to unique circumstances - the 1956 legislation that recognized them also barred them from federal benefits, including the right to seek recognition under the 1978 process. Without any other way open to them, the Lumbee seek an act of Congress.

An alternative remedy would be to enact legislation enabling the Lumbee to seek federal recognition within the system dating from 1978. Charles Taylor, R-N.C., the committee chairman, said he will introduce such legislation, despite a companion hearing March 31 that found tribe after tribe complaining about the red tape, expense, longevity and arbitrariness of the recognition proceedings. The Lumbee themselves resist this remedy, contending they’ve proved their case again and again since 1888, when the tribe first petitioned for federal recognition.
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Old 04-12-2004, 09:42 PM   #45
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Old 04-12-2004, 10:09 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badmutha
:Flame
http://www.indiancountry.com/?1081523424

Lumbee v. Cherokee debate aside, do you think that Indian Country Today could at least make an attempt to be fair, objective and accurate?

Not once has the EBCI said anything about concerns about competition from a Lumbee casino. That's pure speculation.

The Lumbee are roughly the same distance from us as the Mississippi Choctaw, who run two casinos.

As for competition, the Catawba and Poarch Creek are more likely to take a share of our market than the Lumbee.

But why go through the trouble of behaving like responsible journalists when you can sensationalize everything and demonize those "greedy mountain hicks" known as the EBCI.

Yuk foo Indian Country Today. I instead urge everyone to read real Indian newspapers like News From Indian Country.
Nobody’s demonizing you people! You’re doing that for yourselves!

Bottom line: you guys had no case! and those folks sitting on the side line, like Indian Country Today (and they weren’t the only ones), saw it!

If you guys really aren’t concerned about gaming, then stop making it look like you are! Accept the fact that you made a mistake (it happens, we're all human) and move on (better yet, maybe offer us some support!)!
:dontknow:

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Old 04-13-2004, 07:36 AM   #47
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"Well if you ask the Lumbee.. and they've posted this before, it's mainly cheraw and tuscarora with some others in the bloodlines here and there.. you ask those that are calling themselves Tuscarora in Robeson County, adn they will tell you it's all tuscarora (so that it's not too confusing, those calling themselves tuscarora in robeson county are the same people as the lumbee and are related to them .. just separated themselves from)." blackbear

so if they are and know they are tuscarora - then why are they not in the tuscarora tribe, why are they trying to be another tribe altogether?

this i think is the main reason for confusion I mean why not form your tuscarora tribe, be strong in it instead of trying to break off and become something new
- plus the different language stocks the lumbee are supposed to be descended from algonquin, iroquoian, siouan,,, so different to make up one tribe

I thought the cheraws were always in that area? but according to lumbee history the lumbee themselves have moved around from danville, to catawba to pee dee to tuscarora(tribal areas) and finally settled where they are now, which was at one time the cheraws, so i am confused again by saying this is the lumbee ancestral lands.... some of the lumbee did stay with some of those tribes, but not all of them stayed

shoot the more people who have gaming the better i think i mean look at las vegas, new jersey.... they are them next to each other not seperated by miles of hwy.

the casino may help small tribes be more financially independent, but in the long run, may hurt thelarger tribes, disenrollment that we've seen started elsewhere...

If you ask any one living here in cherokee that is over the age of 50 at least.. they will not say they do not want the lumbees recognized because of money .... its because of their tribal history which causes the confusion

that is why I'm on here trying to understand
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Old 04-13-2004, 08:33 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geronimo
badmutha.....do you honestly think these wahoos have any similarities to groups like the lumbees? b/c from your earlier posts, it seems like you want to lump us all together.....you act like we're a bunch of white people posing as indians?

please don't compare us to wahoo groups who have no history or legitimate claims...it's presumptious and insulting....

i agree with a few of your points but don't like the way you present your argument
That's not what I said. But the Wahoos are watching where this bill goes very carefully. And Lumbeedancer, get over yourself. It's not as though the Lumbee didn't make an issue about money too.
And as for "speculation" about our "fear" of a Lumbee casino, once again, that's never been confirmed, and those who speculate tend to overlook the Mississippi Choctaw's casinos, which are just as much competition as one on I 95 would be. I noticed you didn't have a response to that.
Yes, our Council Members are a bunch of rednecks. I don't question that. And they represented us poorly in Washington. But they aren't representative of the traditionals in this tribe, who likely are more concerned with questions of what language do they speak, what religion do they practice, what culture do they have that's unique to them? The costs of Lumbee recognition fall down the scale.
But my anger at this obviously slanted piece from ICT is justified. How would you feel Lumbeedancer if the Asheville media were to do stories urging opposition to Lumbee recognition because of their crooked housing program and the fact that some of them pushed for convicted felons to be allowed to run for office? See what I'm getting at.
But then again, y'all have the Robesonian, so you're probably used to slanted and irresponsible media coverage.
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Old 04-14-2004, 04:36 PM   #49
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Badmutha!

First of all those wahoos can watch all they want, this legislation does nothing for them, (surely you’ve realized that by now)!

Secondly the context we mentioned money and the context your officials did, are two totally different things!


Also! Did it ever ocure to you that maybe I could have given you a response to the casino thing earlier, [Ex: Sure the other Casino’s are already competition, more reason for you not to want more! Also note that the Mississipi Choctaws are in Mississipi (West of you)! They don’t draw away from your customers coming from I95 (which I’d imagine are a good percentage of you guys income!). On another note I remember personally reading about how your officials didn’t want to be bashed around by us (in your own newspaper) and the fact that your chief even mentioned money in the first place doesn’t help very much!, etc………..!] but chose not to?

My objective was to let you see how your actions are making you look, not to acuse you (which I could have easily done, if I wanted to be a prick about it). Considering that your case (as far as circumventing the established process and legitimacy) was shown to be wrong! Still continuing to appose us makes it look like you have alternative motives! Plain and simple!

We can all sit here and complain about how such and such didn’t tell our case right (and actually the Ashville times did write a completely one sided article about us, and believe me they were’nt the only ones) or we can try to understand the other side and actually accomplish something. I’ve pointed out why people are assuming what they are about you guys and some of you guys (CYSA for example) have pointed out how you are still confused about certain things. I gave you insight into my perspective and some of you guys gave me some from yours. It’s time to address the issues (pertinant issues) between our peoples and resolve them, not waste time arguing about nothing and going nowhere fast!

Don’t you get tired of going around in circles every time this issue comes up? I know I do!
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Old 04-14-2004, 05:20 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CYSA
"Well if you ask the Lumbee.. and they've posted this before, it's mainly cheraw and tuscarora with some others in the bloodlines here and there.. you ask those that are calling themselves Tuscarora in Robeson County, adn they will tell you it's all tuscarora (so that it's not too confusing, those calling themselves tuscarora in robeson county are the same people as the lumbee and are related to them .. just separated themselves from)." blackbear

so if they are and know they are tuscarora - then why are they not in the tuscarora tribe, why are they trying to be another tribe altogether?

this i think is the main reason for confusion I mean why not form your tuscarora tribe, be strong in it instead of trying to break off and become something new
- plus the different language stocks the lumbee are supposed to be descended from algonquin, iroquoian, siouan,,, so different to make up one tribe

I thought the cheraws were always in that area? but according to lumbee history the lumbee themselves have moved around from danville, to catawba to pee dee to tuscarora(tribal areas) and finally settled where they are now, which was at one time the cheraws, so i am confused again by saying this is the lumbee ancestral lands.... some of the lumbee did stay with some of those tribes, but not all of them stayed

The tuscarora issue is another topic altogether..but I'll try to bottom line it for you. There is already a recognized tuscarora nation, and there is not enough proof given from anyone in NC to fit the requirements to be recognized by the nation. They are decended from but are not tuscarora. And they are not only tuscarora but other nations as well. There is no proof that there is an unbroken maternal tuscarora line and that's been our criteria as far back as can be remembered. Also when our cheifs came back the final time to bring back to NY those left behind (or decendants of, because it was over a hundred years later) those that remained it was told would no longer be tuscarora.

As for the Lumbee name.. I 'm not sure why folks have such a problem with it. Considering that this group migrated all over picking up remnants of survivors and adding to, I found it rather cool that they would ask for a name to identify them... one that does'nt step on any other nation's toes or single out one of the many bloodlines they carry.
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Old 04-14-2004, 09:12 PM   #51
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Lumbee? Then you might as well pick on the seminole or iroquois for that matter 4/5 iroquois are descended from captives. Seminoles are groups of various tribes that came together. Hell the cherokee have natchez and many other tribes too that joined as survivors. The lumbee are already federally recognized just without any treaty rights. Why not treaty rights well politics is obviously in the way. No fullblood lumbee big deal most tribes dont have fullbloods anymore anyway. Cant speak their ancient languages neither can 90% of carded indians. If the lumbees numbered 200 instead of over 50,000 they would probably be approved. Its just that too many hang around the fort indians got their hand in the lard jar and wont pull it out. Too many fat dependant indians is what the problem is. Then again thats what the Government wants indians that cant think for themselves.
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Old 04-14-2004, 10:58 PM   #52
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I noticed earlier that someone said something about Cherokee surnames and have noticed that several Lumbee, Haliwa-Saponi surnames are also amongst the Eastern Band of Cherokee including Goings, Reid, and Boone among others...interesting. Seems like the intertribal trade, warfare, and kinship of the North Carolina tribes, not to mention decimation and disease, scattered some individuals.
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Old 04-15-2004, 08:10 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumbeedancer
First of all those wahoos can watch all they want, this legislation does nothing for them, (surely you’ve realized that by now)!

Secondly the context we mentioned money and the context your officials did, are two totally different things!


Also! Did it ever ocure to you that maybe I could have given you a response to the casino thing earlier, [Ex: Sure the other Casino’s are already competition, more reason for you not to want more! Also note that the Mississipi Choctaws are in Mississipi (West of you)! They don’t draw away from your customers coming from I95 (which I’d imagine are a good percentage of you guys income!). On another note I remember personally reading about how your officials didn’t want to be bashed around by us (in your own newspaper) and the fact that your chief even mentioned money in the first place doesn’t help very much!, etc………..!] but chose not to?

My objective was to let you see how your actions are making you look, not to acuse you (which I could have easily done, if I wanted to be a prick about it). Considering that your case (as far as circumventing the established process and legitimacy) was shown to be wrong! Still continuing to appose us makes it look like you have alternative motives! Plain and simple!

We can all sit here and complain about how such and such didn’t tell our case right (and actually the Ashville times did write a completely one sided article about us, and believe me they were’nt the only ones) or we can try to understand the other side and actually accomplish something. I’ve pointed out why people are assuming what they are about you guys and some of you guys (CYSA for example) have pointed out how you are still confused about certain things. I gave you insight into my perspective and some of you guys gave me some from yours. It’s time to address the issues (pertinant issues) between our peoples and resolve them, not waste time arguing about nothing and going nowhere fast!

Don’t you get tired of going around in circles every time this issue comes up? I know I do!
You know Lumbeedancer, the difference with the Asheville Citizen-Times is that particular article was an editorial, which is supposed to be opinionated. The opinionated slant from Indian Country Today was presented as "news."

On the casino issue, I thought your guys said you weren't going to pursue it. So it can't be about casino competition anyway right? Oh and two words, spell check. (Don't bother pointing out that I'm an a$$hole. It's a fact I'm well aware of.)
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Old 04-15-2004, 09:55 AM   #54
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you know, it does not matter what we the little people argue about and fuss over and complain about or make for understand for others - its up to our govt's and of course we have to figure out how to deal with it we can be mad we can be happy we could care less -

it's a matter of what the fed gov't deems they want to do or not do

and we'll be fighting each other still no matter what

i agree with what someone else noted - you have fed recog, just not the benefits - why not do the bill for the entitlements that you seem to be seeking - why are the lumbees trying to get fed recog when they already have it?

but once again it's up to the fed gov't
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Old 04-15-2004, 12:52 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CYSA

i agree with what someone else noted - you have fed recog, just not the benefits - why not do the bill for the entitlements that you seem to be seeking - why are the lumbees trying to get fed recog when they already have it?
Technically speaking this bill is set up more as an amendment than an actual recognition bill!

And Badmutha! Obviously I'm not the one who needs to get over myself! The debate is over! You lost! Accept it!
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Old 04-15-2004, 01:27 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumbeedancer
Technically speaking this bill is set up more as an amendment than an actual recognition bill!

And Badmutha! Obviously I'm not the one who needs to get over myself! The debate is over! You lost! Accept it!
:Wave
You know what, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Attention Sugar Creek Cherokees, Georgia Band of Cherokees, Northeast Alabama Cherokees, and Mowa Choctaws, since you've all failed with the BIA process, you can now circumvent it. Let Mike McIntyre and Elizabeth Dole show you how.

And don't worry about the Eastern Band, just push hints to the media that they're afraid of casino competition, even if your tribe isn't pursuing it and even if the Eastern Band never mentioned it. Sympathy and political correctness are sure to carry you to rewards of millions of dollars of federal funding that would otherwise be wasted in Pine Ridge and Rosebud.

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Old 04-15-2004, 02:05 PM   #57
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In one ear and out the other! Your pathetic!

:duhh:
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:09 PM   #58
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In one ear and out the other! Your pathetic!

:duhh:
You know what Lumbeedancer, if your opinion actually mattered to me, my heart would be breaking. :violin:
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:25 PM   #59
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I have no opinion on the lumbee situation...complicated.
I did not know there were so many indians left in the east!
I read this whole discussion again..and i see why folks are in disagreement...and how passionate they are....
I did learn one thing......
I learned why we lost this country.
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:26 PM   #60
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