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Old 02-14-2012, 01:30 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
1. I've done it, many times.
2. You can't sell what you don't own.

This isn't complicated, you're just in denial.



That are already in another's possession which you've received nothing for? (Well, beyond good cheese and some healthcare.)

I think the primary issue here is one of romanticism which is why so many Natives get all roiled up if/when they perceive someone else try to obtain a piece of it (typically for $$$ which is even more hypocritical).

We are who we are and it is NOT tied to land where we didn't generate, were never destined to remain, and could not -- now -- maintain our "old" way of life on. That is dead. It's not coming back and looking that direction for anything other than general strategic guidance is more than a little foolish.

Even in the old days, when hunting game moved, the tribe followed.

Metaphorically, the prey has moved. Take the $$$ and start a new campaign.

I learned how to speak English in England. That didn't make me a Brit. I learned how to speak Spanish in Guadalajara. That didn't make me Mexican. I am who/what I am by virtue of who/what I am.

Geography doesn't matter. To paraphrase Martin Luther, we're a "church unto ourselves."
Spoken like a person that has long been separated from their territories. My parent's and family's camp is on the same land that their ancestors hunted, fished and lived over 15,000 years ago. Everything I am is because of that land and how my culture developed from it. My territory is harsh and unforgiving, it can give you sustenance or kill you in a matter of minutes when the mountains close in and the temperatures drop to minus 50. Whether you are on a dog sled or in a car, that same land is just as deadly.

Nothing romantic about that.

Nor is the notion that none of us ever owned our lands. That is a romantic's way of explaining taken lands. Ask any tribe that is still on their ancestral territories who owns certain berry patches, fishing waters, hunting grounds or forest rights and they'll be quick to tell you. This notion that we never owned the land is a trumped up ideal and a romantic way of making us sound naive and childlike.. I suspect that the idea never actually came from any NDN but was suggested by those who wanted to feel good about ripping us off. Unfortunately Zeke, you have bought into that rhetoric and now you just sound incredibly robotic.

Zeke, I think what offends me the most in the way you write is that you ignore or dismiss other First Nations, Inuit and Metis people's realities that don't fit with your pan-Indian vision of what you bought into because you believed it to be true. I think it's even more offensive that you paint FN people in an either/or and only comment of tradition/culture evolving when it suits you and when it doesn't line up with your thoughts, you say things like we can't live the old life.

Not everyone as you would lead us to believe, were shuffled off their territories. There are many more FN communities that remain in their original territories and have ties to their land than were ever moved off it, why you continue to ignore that is beyond me.

In your description of what would happen when the food moved is rather naive. You know better. You know that to move into another tribe's territory would require a great amount of negotiation and trade off. Even today, if I'm hunting on land that I'm not a beneficiary, then I'd better have permission to be there.

Now if you want to keep saying things like, you'll never get back the land, then perhaps you should go off and read about Nunavut. Hardly a crap piece of land to the Inuit, who by the way also share the few that they are connected to their lands as my people are.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:43 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I have no issue with your point but you do realize we can't change or do anything about that, right?

I do find it humorous -- not pointing any fingers at you -- when folks go all "nobody owns the land" then become gung-ho about reparations.

You can't have it both ways...
Just keep it simple. Have the Native government serve legal notice upon the current "tenants & title bearers" stating that due to an unethical business deal in 1877, the descendants of the original "untitled" owners intend to file suit to regain full & sole legal title to the land.

They can even serve lease papers, and offer pre-emptive coverage for when the lawsuit settles.

Injecting some humor here...Charlie Hill: One day I was walking down the street, and some white man come out yelling, "Hey Injun, go back were you came from!" So I put up a tipi in his back yard.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Spoken like a person that has long been separated from their territories.
No. Spoken as someone not defined by the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
My parent's and family's camp is on the same land that their ancestors hunted, fished and lived over 15,000 years ago.
Find uranium on it and see how long that continues.


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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Nothing romantic about that.
Except the knowledge that would change in an instant if modern society needed the space. (They will.)

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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Nor is the notion that none of us ever owned our lands. That is a romantic's way of explaining taken lands.
Which is why I called it out as ridiculous, earlier.

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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I suspect that the idea never actually came from any NDN but was suggested by those who wanted to feel good about ripping us off.
Or the preponderance of nomadic tribes getting all the press.

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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Zeke, I think what offends me the most in the way you write is that you ignore or dismiss other First Nations, Inuit and Metis people's realities that don't fit with your pan-Indian vision of what you bought into because you believed it to be true.
Actually, I think you're just more concerned that you can't make reality go away.

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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I think it's even more offensive that you paint FN people in an either/or and only comment of tradition/culture evolving when it suits you and when it doesn't line up with your thoughts, you say things like we can't live the old life.
You can't. (This isn't complex.)

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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Not everyone as you would lead us to believe, were shuffled off their territories. There are many more FN communities that remain in their original territories and have ties to their land than were ever moved off it, why you continue to ignore that is beyond me.
Again, this is Canada (at best), right? Or are you seriously going to claim that Federal Reserve Land belongs to tribes?

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In your description of what would happen when the food moved is rather naive. You know better. You know that to move into another tribe's territory would require a great amount of negotiation and trade off.
Yes. It's called killing. Yesterday was no better than today or tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Now if you want to keep saying things like, you'll never get back the land, then perhaps you should go off and read about Nunavut. Hardly a crap piece of land to the Inuit, who by the way also share the few that they are connected to their lands as my people are.
Has anyone found oil there, yet?
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
No. Spoken as someone not defined by the past.




Find uranium on it and see how long that continues.




Except the knowledge that would change in an instant if modern society needed the space. (They will.)



Which is why I called it out as ridiculous, earlier.



Or the preponderance of nomadic tribes getting all the press.



Actually, I think you're just more concerned that you can't make reality go away.



You can't. (This isn't complex.)



Again, this is Canada (at best), right? Or are you seriously going to claim that Federal Reserve Land belongs to tribes?



Yes. It's called killing. Yesterday was no better than today or tomorrow.



Has anyone found oil there, yet?
If they do, then it's money in our pockets as our settlement lands include all right to surface and subsurface...

Quote:
Settlement Lands
Category A Settlement Land is settlement land where a Yukon First Nation has ownership of the surface and subsurface, including minerals. All staking, exploration and mining activity is governed by the First Nations for new mineral interests.

Category B Settlement Land is settlement land where a Yukon First Nation has ownership of the surface. New and existing staking, exploration and mining activity are governed by the Yukon government.

Fee simple Settlement Land is settlement land where a Yukon First Nation has the same fee simple title as other land registered in the Land Titles Office.
Our roles and responsibilities are defined here:

http://www.emr.gov.yk.ca/oilandgas/r...ibilities.html

As for the Inuit, they too have their rights... http://www.ntilands.com/pdfdoc/mining_and_nlca.pdf

I think that if you are going to pass off comments to try and make you look smart, you best do your homework.
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Last edited by yaahl; 02-14-2012 at 06:09 PM..
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:45 PM   #45
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Its a lakota (titunwan) decision and way of life so leave it alone unless you lived here or you have a right to say what you are saying...we may never get the land back but we choose to keep fighting for it..wouldn't you..there is a saying that once a Lakota makes a decision to go forward never turns back..whatever obstacles there are they face them head on and this is one of them. There are soo many Lakota that accepting the $$ wouldn't really make a difference..and lets ask the question of who is perpetuating that poverty and whose image are we trying to measure ourselves to? We are spiritually strong and connected to our land..so we have many of the social ills that was brought to us but again..it took time for all of that to happen so it will take time to heal..
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:50 AM   #46
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I'm say it again, the Black Hills are Not for Sale!!!
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:56 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
Just keep it simple. Have the Native government serve legal notice upon the current "tenants & title bearers" stating that due to an unethical business deal in 1877, the descendants of the original "untitled" owners intend to file suit to regain full & sole legal title to the land.

They can even serve lease papers, and offer pre-emptive coverage for when the lawsuit settles.

Injecting some humor here...Charlie Hill: One day I was walking down the street, and some white man come out yelling, "Hey Injun, go back were you came from!" So I put up a tipi in his back yard.
I owe you rep.
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:58 AM   #48
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I'm say it again, the Black Hills are Not for Sale!!!
And there is that clarity I asked for.
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Old 02-15-2012, 08:40 AM   #49
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once a Lakota makes a decision to go forward never turns back..whatever obstacles there are they face them head on
Hokahey!

Sorry I'm very proud of my people. And I find this to be very true. The Black Hills are NOT for sale.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:25 AM   #50
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I think that if you are going to pass off comments to try and make you look smart, you best do your homework.
I have.

Is any of that relevant to the United States? I didn't think so.

But, beyond that, you show a certain naivete to presume that anything you espouse would be honored if/when significant need for what you claim to hold arises.

History dictates that it won't, even in a Nation that is left of center.

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And I find this to be very true. The Black Hills are NOT for sale.
And there's the naivete of which I speak.

You don't own the Black Hills.

You're fortunate there is an offer.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:07 AM   #51
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We have the Black Hills, we haven't sold it. We can see it, we can touch it. Really sad that a self righteous squalid minded Injun such as Zeke can come from a good family. I'm thinking Zeke should head back to Manitoulin Island and disappear.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:21 AM   #52
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I have.

Is any of that relevant to the United States? I didn't think so.

But, beyond that, you show a certain naivete to presume that anything you espouse would be honored if/when significant need for what you claim to hold arises.

History dictates that it won't, even in a Nation that is left of center.



And there's the naivete of which I speak.

You don't own the Black Hills.

You're fortunate there is an offer.
Now you are just backpedaling.

You asked about what would happen with oil discovery with our agreements, I answered that the surface and subsurface rights are held with settled lands. It was asked and answered. If you wanted to know what our agreement had to do with the US you should have asked when you questioned the oil rights.

As for my naivete as you call it, then I am in grand company of several thousand members of tribal councils, legal teams, Parliamentary committees etc all of who crossed every T and dotted every I in a very long negotiation process that took over 40 years to complete. You should try participating in a treaty negotiation and agreement process, until then you are just another armchair chief espousing his bitter, self opinion.

If you had ever lived in Canada, you would also know that your opine of political beliefs up here is so out of date you appear to be stuck in the 1960s with the hippies and tree huggers. First Nations have actually made significant moves forward under a conservative (with a Capital C) regime than we ever got under the tree hugging lefties you keep referring to in your jabs. Ever read the 1969 White Paper on the Indian Solution penned by the touchy feely Liberals? If you had, you would never refer to the GOC as left of centre.

And just today, the Australian government has initialized a movement forward for the Aboriginals there. It's only a matter of time before the US gets with the program.

http://news.yahoo.com/australia-trac...XN0Aw--;_ylv=3

As for the Black Hills, the government has already conceded that the 1877 seizure of the Black Hills was illegal, the court however is tied to the legal remedy of monetary compensation since it cannot order a specific performance from the government to return the land. Their lawyer said:

"There is no selling to be done because the court determined it was an improper taking and all the court can give as far as remedy is money.”

See Tort and civil remedies for further explanation of remedies.

Obama was quoted in 2009 stating: "You deserve to have a voice,” and “You will not be forgotten as long as I'm in this White House."

Change is coming Zeke, it's only a matter of time.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:26 AM   #53
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I wonder where is Zeke's ancestral land. Oh wait, they were kicked out by the Iroquois in 1650.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:38 PM   #54
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You don't own the Black Hills.

You're fortunate there is an offer.
Zeeky,

Pay me $1.3 billion dollars.

You don't owe it to me.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 02-15-2012, 10:10 PM   #55
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I'm sorry to say this zeke but you think too much like the wasicu and oppress others with your poison thinking but someday maybe you will have that wo ableza that spiritual connection..maybe?? But like I said before we will keep fighting for our right to exist and yes someday get our land OUR land back...and if you can't ever understand that then don't stand in judgement of those who make such decisions to do so...I am sure the future generations will keep fighting...the monetary is immaterial to anything that could make a major change..that is the bottom line..they are not for sale..
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:00 AM   #56
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@Lakota_winyan,@wanjica_the_one,@Cinkala,@IyanHoks'ila..
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:13 AM   #57
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Is that good medicine you're throwing at them, c-mom? LOL
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:02 PM   #58
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Is that good medicine you're throwing at them, c-mom? LOL
LOL! actually it is "goot metcin" (blessings really)so~ yes.
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:44 PM   #59
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LOL! actually it is "goot metcin" (blessings really)so~ yes.
Thank you :)
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:07 AM   #60
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Yes, lila wopila tanka to everyone who is showing us support!!!

The Black Hills are Not For Sale!!!
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