Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life > Native Issues The Trouble With Navajos... The Trouble With Navajos...

Reply LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-26-2004, 12:11 PM   #1
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
The Trouble With Navajos...

So?

What is up with this? I mean, we're practically ALL full blooded indians, yet, we're not accepted as readily at powwows as other tribes of LESSER blood quantum.

We incessantly run into this problem with folks where they challenge our knowledge of the powwow world. We're put down for just about everything you can think of.

Yet, they come back year after year, marry our women, our men, move onto our reservation and use up OUR tribal resources.

I'm assuming it has something to do with pouring salt into old wounds. Unsettled scores from the old days. I constantly find a great deal of tribal rivalry and just outright HATE and LOATHING for Navajos among just about every tribe out there.

Mind you, there are some instances where I do agree with what you Non-Navajos are saying about my people, and some of the things they do that are just blatantly stupid, or just pointless in the arena.

We all, for the most part, understand that powwows are NOT our way, never have been, and probably will never be fully accepted. Accepted from either us, and certainly, not accepted by other tribes that own these particular dances and styles of singing and dress.

I don't have a problem with the fact that powwow is not my way, and if I had to, or was seriously asked to do so, I could give it up. I certainly could use the extra cash after selling off the drums and the dance clothes.

Perhaps it's just me, and I'm reading too much into this. But, I've noticed a great deal of general dislike for Navajos among many tribes across the US. I think it's just a few bad apples giving the rest of us bad names.

But, bear in mind, we're not like any other tribe or people on Earth. We're very independent in our thoughts, actions and ways of doing things, well, some of us are. Some of us are not very sociable or talkative. Like myself, outside of here, I'm very quiet, reserved and I tend to keep to myself, and only speak when spoken to, and then I'm very direct in my responses to peoples questions or inquiries about things.

So? What is your beef with us?

Mostly, I've noticed it's stemmed from some of us and our lack of knowledge of what is appropriate in the arena, hence all the smudging and fanning during things like Gourd Dance. I personally don't see the need, I don't personally view the Gourd Dance as a religious event that calls for things like that. Nor do I see powwow as a religious event. Or a reason to get all 'holy' on people.

I was told powwows are for fun, for socializing, for entertainment.

...I view it as such.

But, I remain respectful and mindful of the fact that these are not my ways, and that if I'm corrected, I should take it in stride and inquire further about something I supposedly did 'wrong'.

Is it jealousy? Is it just a general dislike? Is it based on the fact that some of us don't know what the hell we're doing and you're afraid to confront us about it?

....I sure wish you would. Confront us that is. It's only going to keep going if you don't put a stop to it.

Then again, you have to look at where we picked up some of this stuff. ....but, I wont' go into that.

....either that or we're just stone cold rugged and we're beyond help.........and even Jesus can't help us!!

ayyyyye!!
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 12:31 PM   #2
Senior Dancer
 
River Spirit's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
River Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sacramento CA on the American River
Posts: 799
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
I think you answered your own question, Bo, if you are talking specifically about Navajo and pow-wow. I have to counter that, though, by saying no one of my acquaintance (nor myself) have a problem with Navajo joining in the celebration. But, if you are encountering some resistance from others it is probably for the reasons you already identified. Some folks have a very proprietary attitude about their culture. We don't like White people mimicking our traditions; and some extend that to non-pow-wow tribes. Seems a shame to me but I think it depends on how individuals 'view' pow-wow. If it is celebration/social or is it ceremony?
__________________
"The Cleveland Indians are going to change their name. They don't want to be known as a team that perpetuates racial stereotypes. From now on they're just going to be called the Indians." - Native Comedian Vaughn Eaglebear, Colville/Lakota
River Spirit is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 12:35 PM   #3
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
.....answered my own questions huh.

LOL!!

Your response was fairly well stated, especially that bit on whites and non-powwow tribes.

Do any of the other "non-powwow" tribes have as much trouble?

Pueblos? Tribes in the Northeast? Southeast? Coastal regions?
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 01:27 PM   #4
Senior Dancer
 
Tiyospaye Yazzie's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Tiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond repute
Tiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oljato
Posts: 533
Credits: 2,154.33
Savings: 0.00
Bad Apples

As you stated about a few bad apples in the Big Nation could it be that it is just a few bad apples in the powwow circuit that have been saying all this nonsense about Dine's? BTW I am not "Navajo" haven't been and will never be.
__________________
"I Ahula Ula"
Enjoying the ride.
BETA SIGMA EPSILON
Tiyospaye Yazzie is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 01:51 PM   #5
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
...well. If you want to get all technical about it F. T.

LMAO!

...'Dine' is the Navajo word that is used when speaking about "People" in general.

Nakai Dine'
Nakai Lizhinii Dine'

The Word Navajo....is a corruption of a term used to describe ourselves.

Na beh ho

If you want to get even MORE specific. You have the word....Naba he dine'

....just for thought.

not bein a smart *** or anything, or trynna show my "superiority" or anything...cause, I'm not.

:-)
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 01:53 PM   #6
Dineth Hearth Throth
 
BurBz's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,918
Credits: 22.00
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bo Jangles
...well. If you want to get all technical about it F. T.

LMAO!

...'Dine' is the Navajo word that is used when speaking about "People" in general.

Nakai Dine'
Nakai Lizhinii Dine'

The Word Navajo....is a corruption of a term used to describe ourselves.

Na beh ho

If you want to get even MORE specific. You have the word....Naba he dine'

....just for thought.

not bein a smart *** or anything, or trynna show my "superiority" or anything...cause, I'm not.

:-)
haha..good post! LMAO......

interesting..this is gettin good!! LOL
BurBz is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 01:54 PM   #7
Dineth Hearth Throth
 
BurBz's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,918
Credits: 22.00
Savings: 1.00
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiyospaye Yazzie
BTW I am not "Navajo" haven't been and will never be.
sooo are you earth and water?? :50:


thats under your tribal affiliation :p
BurBz is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 01:55 PM   #8
Senior Dancer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
sltate has a reputation beyond repute
sltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond reputesltate has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: apache,ok
Posts: 631
Credits: 101.00
Savings: 0.00
Well, I see it like this: Some of the Navajo people that pow wow sometimes over step the boundaries of tradition by wearing a regalia that is not theirs, nor have they been given this dress or dance style in the proper way. They will see something or video tape or take a picture and next thing you know, you see your outfit on someone else you have never met.
Now, this not just with Navajo people, but eastern tribes, southern tribes...but it seems more noticeable with the Navajo nation.
The other side of the coin.......the outfits they make are pretty darn good and they look really nice and they can flat dance, you know? So, some of that could be sour grapes.
The only thing I seem to get a thorn in my side about is the regalia thing because that has happened to me and to one of my neices(to the point my cousin went up and confronted the girl for making an exact duplicate, beadwork and all, and the girl said she could do whatever she wanted to do. Now that's bold).
But, I have met some really nice people from the Dine nation, and they are real respectful and really good people.They are good dancers and respect the arena.
So, I guess your complaint is valid on all scores, but you have to realize that some of that negative has been brought about by bad experiences and crappy attitudes when asking some of the people why they have a certain regalia on and where they were dressed and by whom. To tribes that have the arena circle in their traditions, this is a vital point, especially when they see their dress on someone not from their area. Those are the old school people.
sltate is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 02:01 PM   #9
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by sltate
Well, I see it like this: Some of the Navajo people that pow wow sometimes over step the boundaries of tradition by wearing a regalia that is not theirs, nor have they been given this dress or dance style in the proper way. They will see something or video tape or take a picture and next thing you know, you see your outfit on someone else you have never met.
Now, this not just with Navajo people, but eastern tribes, southern tribes...but it seems more noticeable with the Navajo nation.
The other side of the coin.......the outfits they make are pretty darn good and they look really nice and they can flat dance, you know? So, some of that could be sour grapes.
The only thing I seem to get a thorn in my side about is the regalia thing because that has happened to me and to one of my neices(to the point my cousin went up and confronted the girl for making an exact duplicate, beadwork and all, and the girl said she could do whatever she wanted to do. Now that's bold).
But, I have met some really nice people from the Dine nation, and they are real respectful and really good people.They are good dancers and respect the arena.
So, I guess your complaint is valid on all scores, but you have to realize that some of that negative has been brought about by bad experiences and crappy attitudes when asking some of the people why they have a certain regalia on and where they were dressed and by whom. To tribes that have the arena circle in their traditions, this is a vital point, especially when they see their dress on someone not from their area. Those are the old school people.
Great response!

Thanks!!

See, this is where it gets hairy.

I've had MORE trouble from younger folks than from any of the older people. Matter a fact, the older people, from whatever tribe, have complimented me on the way I'm dressed, or have told me "You're dressed right." Or I've gotten some words of encouragement and told me to keep at it.

...okay, before this turns into a MR BO JANGLES THREAD....back to the topic.

Anyhoo.....

NEXT!!

lol
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 02:18 PM   #10
PowWows.com Addicts
 
ojibwaysweetie's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
ojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond repute
ojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond reputeojibwaysweetie has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Heart of the Great Lakes, Ontario Canada
Posts: 4,770
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
I guess I don't really understand this thread. Hey if you are a goot ndn, welcome to my world :D I can love and respect any goot ndn living in a disrupt world and still living the old ways of their people. Plain and simple love and respect for another ndn just 'cuz they are ndn is goot enough for me!! If our people would use that negativity and turn it into something good and positive, our ndn world would be a much better place :D

I really really don't like to see fightin amongst ndn people, no matter what tribe ya from.


:Cry
__________________
"Gaa wiin daa-aangoshkigaazo ahaw enaabiyaan gaa-inaabid"


Last edited by ojibwaysweetie; 07-26-2004 at 02:21 PM..
ojibwaysweetie is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 02:27 PM   #11
Senior Dancer
 
Tiyospaye Yazzie's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Tiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond repute
Tiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oljato
Posts: 533
Credits: 2,154.33
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bo Jangles
...well. If you want to get all technical about it F. T.

LMAO!

...'Dine' is the Navajo word that is used when speaking about "People" in general.

Nakai Dine'
Nakai Lizhinii Dine'

The Word Navajo....is a corruption of a term used to describe ourselves.

Na beh ho

If you want to get even MORE specific. You have the word....Naba he dine'

....just for thought.

not bein a smart *** or anything, or trynna show my "superiority" or anything...cause, I'm not.

:-)
Are you sure of your facts? 'Cause NAVAJO was used to describe DInes by spaniards that first encountered us. In fact we were called Apaches de Navaho. Not Navajos. We stemmed off the greater group of Apaches that were in this region. Unfortunatly, some of the people of this Great Apache group, dominately young and old, did not see warfare as a successful way of life, hence they stayed behind and developed a group of apaches that adapted to a life of agriculture and not warfare (Niihei Dine').
ANd in discussions with other elders they agree that DInes implies to the People, us, and the word Navajo is a name given to us by the BeesBiiChaiHees' and Einiishoodiis'(spaniards & missionaries).
Ask any elder from the ole country, Navajo Mtn, Oljeto (these Dines had elluded capture from spainiards and US soldiers), Pinon, they will tell you. In our prayers we say Dine, in our ceromonies we say DIne, and to each other we say DIne. BTW I am a Taachiinii ei nishli, Tlizilani ie bashichin. Kiyaani ei da shi chei Na Dine Loka ei da shi Nali. Ei awho t'ao ei hast'in nishli
__________________
"I Ahula Ula"
Enjoying the ride.
BETA SIGMA EPSILON
Tiyospaye Yazzie is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 02:59 PM   #12
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiyospaye Yazzie
Are you sure of your facts? 'Cause NAVAJO was used to describe DInes by spaniards that first encountered us. In fact we were called Apaches de Navaho. Not Navajos. We stemmed off the greater group of Apaches that were in this region. Unfortunatly, some of the people of this Great Apache group, dominately young and old, did not see warfare as a successful way of life, hence they stayed behind and developed a group of apaches that adapted to a life of agriculture and not warfare (Niihei Dine').
ANd in discussions with other elders they agree that DInes implies to the People, us, and the word Navajo is a name given to us by the BeesBiiChaiHees' and Einiishoodiis'(spaniards & missionaries).
Ask any elder from the ole country, Navajo Mtn, Oljeto (these Dines had elluded capture from spainiards and US soldiers), Pinon, they will tell you. In our prayers we say Dine, in our ceromonies we say DIne, and to each other we say DIne. BTW I am a Taachiinii ei nishli, Tlizilani ie bashichin. Kiyaani ei da shi chei Na Dine Loka ei da shi Nali. Ei awho t'ao ei hast'in nishli
Actually. There's no evidence, oral or otherwise, that states we we're EVER a part of the Apache bands. Sure, we're related by language, closest to the White Mountains, and we do have alot of cultural similiarities with them.....we're two DISTINCT peoples.

Who says we're not 'warlike'?????

You mean to tell me you think the Apaches are tougher than we are?

OMG!!!!

C'mon man! Snap!!

Look around. You don't get a reservation THIS BIG by being timid farmers and shepards!!!!

Look thru old accounts, Spanish, Mexican, early settlers, they ALL comment on how fiercely the interior of this area now known as the Navajo Nation was defended.

Matter a fact, you read accounts of how Apaches often came here to hide out, on account of the fact that we we're the better fighter. Fort Wingate was established to stop our raiding on the Zuni's and the settlers in the Grants area. What forts we're established in Apache country to stop their raiding?

Apaches had the advantage of RUGGED COUNTRY, they could hide. We never had that luxury. We fought for everything we have, we didn't hide out, unless it really called for it and we we're outnumbered, but, even then, you've got places like Massacre Cave in Canyon De Chelly where a small group held off an entire Mexican slave trading party, and fought to their deaths.

You mention the "ole country'.

Actually, our "Old Country" is centered around Gobernador Knob and Huerfano Butte. THIS is the true Navajo Homeland. You find more references to these two locations than to any other points West of there. Archeological evidence supports this too. The earliest navajo hogan remnants we're found here, dating back to 1100AD. You don't find any West or near the Utah-Arizona borders until late into the 1700's, and even then, they we're just small intermittent settlements, usually used just for camping.

We're a migratory people, first and foremost. Sheep came in but, didn't necessisarily "settle" the navajo.

You still had Navajo raiding parties moving East into Oklahoma, the Texas Pan Handle, as far South into Texas as present day Waco, and even a FIRMLY documented raid in the late 1700's on a band of Pawnees!!

Does that strike you as a timid people? Bent on agriculture and sheepherding?

After our internment at Bosque Redondo, ALL functions and ceremonies surrounding War and readiment for war, we're quickly put down and eliminated.

Navajo IS a corruption of an older Navajo word BY the Spanish. You also have a Keresan word the Pueblos used in describing us that sounds ALOT like navajo.....some say Nah be ho is a close approximation of that word.

I still stick by Navajo. Heck, you can look thru the old Council logs and see that several sessions in the 1950's when the older, TRULY FLUENT, KNOWLEDGEABLE people we're around. They debated the history and origin of the word Navajo. It was at that time the Tribe settled on the spelling and pronunciation, based upon consultation with older medicine people who, as you stated, use teh word "dine" in the ceremonies and such.

BUT!!

Dine is like I said. A general term, meaning "people" it does not specifilically state WHICH people you are referring to. It simply means "people".

Beesh Bii Chaii is the word you're using to describe the Spanish. It's the incorrect term.

That term was used to describe, the germans, and their helmets of the WWI an II era.

The REAL word for Spaniards is.

Nakai

Mexicans are

Zilth tah eh ahee "Mountain that runs into the ocean people"

or

Nakia l(th) bahe

Eenishodii is a word SPECIFICALLY referring to CATHOLIC Missionaries......there's other SPECIFIC words for other types of religious missionaries.


Dine' is a term, and I think I'm correcting myself here. Used to describe NAVAJOS......so I guess you are right!! LOL

I stand corrected.

Today you have some people saying 'Nahookaa Dine' ..that's a more modern term, from what I understand.

BUT, I still stand by the premise that Navajo, is a word with origins steeped within our own descriptions of ourselves.

When we we're created, it was stated that we were referred to as "Na bah he Dine'"

If you follow the logic of BAD TRANSLATORS.....it's just a step and twist to go from Na bah he to NAVAJO.

I stick with Navajo.........

LMAO!
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 03:09 PM   #13
Dineth Hearth Throth
 
BurBz's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,918
Credits: 22.00
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bo Jangles
When we we're created, it was stated that we were referred to as "Na bah he Dine'"

this is "THE TERM" that my family and relatives use...:p... and its also the one that they usually use after introducing their clans..etc etc :)
BurBz is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 03:18 PM   #14
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
If we followed your statement that we broke off from a group of Apaches.

Then, we'll follow the reasoning put forth by academia and anthropologists of today.

They've stated and proposed a series of THREE migration routes the Athapaskan peoples supposedly took en route from Western Canada. (I've got evidence that refutes this claim).

There's the Plains Migration. The Rocky Mountain Migration. Lastly, you have the Rio Grande Rivery Valley Migration, which briefly looped into the Texas Panhandle and Eastern Colorado, and I believe is the route Anthropologists believe the Navajo took, prior to settlement in the San Juan River Valley, in present day Farmington, NM and points immediately South and East.

A great deal of archeological evidence of the earliest Navajo migrations was lost when Navajo Dam was created. It flooded a series of canyons that, according the final report on the archeological material in the area, pushes the dates for Navajo occupation and 'domination' of that region, potentially back into the 800 AD period. You do have some small, minor camps in the hills around present day Nageezi that do date back to 900 AD...but, with carbon dating being as fickle as it is, you end up with a date closer to 1200AD.

BUT! The fact remains, documented and dated, and now submerged under a lake, Navajos we're in the area, with a complete culture, PURELY navajo, as early as 800AD.

I personally don't buy into the whole migration route thing, and that we we're at any point in time linked up with the Apaches. Their culture is somewhat chaotic and very sketchy at best. When compared to ours at least.

Our is very REFINED, HIGHLY DEVELOPED and just COMPLEX. You don't get a beliefe system or culture like that, in the span of a millenia!! Culture and language need time to grow and expand.

If anyone migrated here from Canada, I'd have to say it's the Apaches. Distant relations of ours, yes, but, still distant relations.

A delegation led by Dr. Annie Dodge Wauneka was sent out from Window Rock at the behest of the Navajo Nation Council, to assess the validity of statements by the science community that the Navajo people we're from Western Canada.

She, along with others, did simple comparisons of cultural practices, language differences and noted any similiarities if any we're encountered.

Their final report, which also included a trip to China and the Mongolia Region, concluded, that the Navajo are a people unto themselves, with no known relations to the North, and in thru whatever means, beyond science, stated that the Navajo did NOT migrate from Mongolia, as is popularly theorized.

Granted, that goes against the standard, acceptedtheory, but, think about it. You have sites in Central and South America that date back to 30,000 years BP....why not have Navajos here already?

Our culture, our language, our way of life, past and present, bear no resemblence to any known culture of today.
People can cite pueblo influence till they're blue in the face, but, until I see a Navajo Kiva, or a large grouping dancing in a line up or pattern that mimics the Pueblo katsina dances......I ain't buying into it!!

Sure, we do weaving, but, our closest neighbors have the men weave, with us, it's the women.

I think the cultural practices and languages differ too greatly to state that we and the Apache we're ever ONE people.

..dang, now I'm babbling.
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 04:29 PM   #15
Senior Dancer
 
Tiyospaye Yazzie's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Tiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond repute
Tiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond reputeTiyospaye Yazzie has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oljato
Posts: 533
Credits: 2,154.33
Savings: 0.00
Beeshbiichaie is spainiards not german. Long ago, (before Germans were known to DInes) when spainiards came here the Dine noted the Steel Hats they were wearing while trekking through Dine T'aa. Hence the word Besh(steel) biichaie(hat). Einiishodii (from the missionaries and how the wore their robes) Eii-clothes Shod(drag) as in N'ghishoo'd-drag. As for proof of exitance in Glen Canyon, it is highly unlikely, as my father grew up in Glen Canyon and his grandfather and my greatgrandfather did so too, and the only remnants that are noted are those left by the previous dwellers, the Anasazi, other than that most Dines never occupied the Canyon due to periodic flooding. As for migrating down to this area, whoever said that we migrated this way from the north, as far as I am concern we here then and we are still here today. If any migrating happened it was from here to there not there to here. As for the seperating of the group, I still believe we settled here due to the old and the young becoming seperated from the greater group and became expert agriculturist. 'Tis also the reason for our rich cultural beliefs. As mention before it was the ole and very young that stayed behind to turn to peaceful ways as the young and inexperience moved without us which also explains their lack of cultural belongings. The reason we kept this grat Nation was not because of warfare but of intellect. We were spread very widely, very disparse over a wide region, that when treaty commenced it was the smart and savy that helped us gain a great Nation, not of warfare, not of raiding, but of intelligence and consideration of all people. If any nobady was ferocious it was the Dines that lived towards the North, being in constant fueds with Utes, paiutes and others invaders that had determinations of settleling on Dine T'aa. Again history supports this, as mention many Dines in Arizona and NM were often afraid to traverse into the northern region of Dine T'aa as fear of being killed for trespassing. T'is also the reason that most Traders or merchants did not attempt to establish a Trading post 'til the early 1900's. The Wetherills were the first, despite of warnings of many a Dines along their route to Oljeto, did settled but eventually moved to Kayenta(Todeneshzhee,) Try reading The Traders to the Navajos and read for your own account. You could also debate about the word NAVAJO being translated as "long knives" by early spainiards. Due to the fact that DInes used to kill spainiards and slave traders with these so called long knives. As for hogan remenants, I don't yet know, but what I will tell you is that Dines incinerated their hogans and their clothing after they had died. So, I guess they could have dated them but for the record traditional Dines never dug up the remains of the dead or anything that pertain to the deceased, as it will follow you back. That is why hogans were incinerated and the three men(who were ashened), after initiating the fire, would run and jump over bushes and cross paths so that the spirit of the deceased would not follow them and would not recognize them. I would like to go more but I have to work
__________________
"I Ahula Ula"
Enjoying the ride.
BETA SIGMA EPSILON
Tiyospaye Yazzie is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 05:29 PM   #16
Senior Dancer
 
River Spirit's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
River Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond reputeRiver Spirit has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sacramento CA on the American River
Posts: 799
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Wow! I'm overwhelmed by all the history lesson. I love it, truly. Back to pow-wows though...I've always thought Darrell Tso a great dancer and he is Dineh. Used to seem him dance up in Washington, Oregon, Idaho. Great bead work!
__________________
"The Cleveland Indians are going to change their name. They don't want to be known as a team that perpetuates racial stereotypes. From now on they're just going to be called the Indians." - Native Comedian Vaughn Eaglebear, Colville/Lakota
River Spirit is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 07:05 PM   #17
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
The term NAKAI is THE correct term for Spaniards....not "beesh be chahii".

Break the word down, and look at the pleuthera of sites dotted across Dinetah', they ALL have the name NAKAI when referencing the Spanish.

That stems from the FACT that the Spanish wandered over this country, coming up as early as 1539, with Fray Marcos De Niza, a CATHOLIC missionary, who along with a black slave, Estevancio, on orders set forth by Coronado and the King of Spain, to search for the Fabled Cities of Civola (Cibola). Coronado followed after De Niza's return to Mexico, with his outrageous tales having found Cibola....he actually lied. But, if he hadn't done that, Coronado would never have ventured North into NM, TX and AZ.

The cities in questions turned out to be the older remnant villages of Zuni Pueblo, Hawikuh and others. Navajos, encountered and watched the Spanish as they criss crossed what would become the Navajo Nation, thus gaining the title "Nakai".....or in english, something akin to "wandering" or walking around.

The Spanish stopped briefly in what would become St. Michaels, AZ....just two miles West of present day Window Rock, naming a a meadow and two springs there....La Cienega something or other, I don't recall specifics, but, I know the Spanish translates out to Yellow Meadow Spring. That site is now occupied by the Franciscan Mission of St. Michaels, established in 1899, the FIRST mission established in Navajo country.

The mormons, of whom you're referring and calling "Eeh ne shodii" we're REALLY called "Gah Mulli". They migrated South from Utah, and eventually settled in the Glen Canyon region, south of what is now St. George Utah, where a thriving settlement of Mormon farmers and cattlemen still live today.

They eventually migrated even further south in the Mid to late 18th C. and settled in what is now Joseph City.

Eh ne shodii is a reference SPECIFICALLY APPLIED TO THE FRANCSICAN MISSIONARIES!!! It cites the long robes they wore, marks of the Francisan Order. Mormons didn't wear long robes like the Franciscans.

Beesh Be Cha hii is a modern term, referring to the Germans. Navajo's didn't have ANY kind of metal implements, or a word for anything metal for that matter when they encountered the Spanish.

Break the word down. Beesh........the word for Knife, be cha hii. Knives on their hats. Now, look at the German helmets of World War one and two. They we're equipped with a small spikelet on top, similar in shape to a small knife.....or from a distance, looked like a small knife.

As for death and any fear of it.

The practice of burying or interring an individual inside the home and leaving or burning the contents was a practice begun in the mid 1800's. With the onset of Small Pox and other communicable diseases, the individual or family would not want to come into contact of a home or individual for fear of sickness and eventual death. So, the practice of NOT burying the dead started. An individual was frequently left to die, or that had passed on, was left inside the home. To mark such locations, family or passersby would take down the North wall, or knock a hole in the Western Wall of the hogan, or board up the front door. This served a visual to anyone passing by that someone had died here, and perhaps, the cause was from sickness, and that it was to be avoided.

Navajo's did in fact have very little fear of death, and it was common practice to bury the enemy on the battlefield. There are a series of written accounts that attest to this. Physical proof lies two miles West of you Tio, in St. Michaels, AZ, on a lone hill between the Mission and St. Michaels, Indian School. The area, frequented since Anasazi times, is a hill, saddled on either side with a running stream....a source of water, a realiable, CLEAN source of water flows there year round from two artesian springs.

A raiding party of Utes we're caught off gaurd when watering their horses there, and killed by local Navajo's. The Navajos buried the Utes, killed their horses, and buried the belongings of the Utes there, on top of that hill.
That's my proof that Navajos buried the dead. Couple that with the fact that if you studied navajo burial practices, you'd know that there are approximately 28 different burial practices that we're in use up until the advent of the 20th century, and then, even some of them we're still used.

Navajo's fear of death, stemmed from fear of illness, and with the advent of the missionary, came the whole idea of death being a bad thing. I always say, the Navajo of old didn't fear death, he had a VERY healthy respect for it.

That is evidenced by the practice, even up to present times, where the deceased is often dressed by a family member, or a good friend, with requests made by the deceased prior to passing, if possible, that certain items either be burned at the time of internment, or behanded down to various family members.

If you we're to read thru a study completed in 1982 by the Univ. of New Mexico, and a group of archeologists, specifcally with backgrounds in forensics and cultural practices of the Navajo in the middle part of the last century, when some of hte main stays of our culture were still around, they'd tell you, take you to, and show you, various internment sites. They'd describe to you in detail, the manner in which a person was buried. How family members would frequently place items with the deceased, or how make shift coffins we're made from old coffee crates.

I find it rather interesting to note how much we've changed as a people, in something like burials or even marriage practices.

IT's basically our culture evolving.

The Navajo routinely raided North into Ute, Paiute and Shoshone Country. That's firmly documented, a party was spotted and noted to be seen as far North as what is today, Brigham City, UT. Ute scalps we're a common "war trophy" among the Navajo. You only have to cross the El Malpais in Grants, NM to see remnants of the old trails South to what is present day Alamo, NM and along the way, in various small outcroppings, archeologists have found items belonging to Plains indians, Kiowas, Comanches, what have you, all taken by navajos.

Navajos have the cultural practice of naming their enemies. The Navajo word for Ute is Nooda eh, Kiowa is K'oh Wah. I forget what Comanche is, and Cheyenne.

Hopi is Ah yah kinii.
....and then you have the various names for all the Pueblos of today.

I wasn't citing Glen Canyon as the place where Navajos lived, I was citing Navajo Dam in Farmington, NM.
Go thru that region of NW NM and go thru some of the canyons there. You'll notice the total lack of Anasazi rock art, what you will find is pictographs of Navajo "deities", figures from the Yei Be Chai ceremony and paintings that allude to various other ceremonial sandpaintings, or star charts drawn on canyon walls.

....dang, I should just say.....

"Tio, yer an alright kinda guy......yer just misguided and WRONG!!!"

LMAO!!

It's all good man......it's makin for some convo, and I'm liking it.

I'm curious though.

How does an adopted Navajo boy, raised up by a Sioux family, know anything about his culture?

I was born and raised in, steeped in it for as long as I can remember. Does that make me an expert? no....it just means I've been around, and that's how I heard what I'm talking about here.

As for traders.

The Wetherills we're ONE ina series of traders to come West. But, I don't know that they we're the first. I just ran thru an Environmental Impact Statement on the Kayenta area for work.....it cites a series of I believe, three graves, all Wetherills. Yeah, the same infamous family that "found" Mesa Verde and dug up stuff in Chaco Canyon.

...anyhoo. The dates for their trading post we're from the LATE 1800's.

You had Two STory Trading Post in St. Michaels, AZ that was in existence since the very early 1800's, at least some items pawned there or left for safe keeping, are dated there to at least 1803. Hubbell's came in around the mid 1800's to later.

Two Story, sadly, was torn down after the current owner who was not the original owner, moved away and eventually passed on.

In his vaults, he had items that we're held in safe keeping for various families, where those items went, is not known, but, the earliest recorded documents he had in his files dated to the late 1700's, records for an item, a ceremonial item, left with him because of a dispute between family members, whoever the original owner was, acted as a neutral party and arbitrator. The item was never claimed by the family, and it's whereabouts, along with several others, are unknown. The trading post was torn down, and the items we're taken somewhere or sold off to collectors.


Martin Link, a supposed "friend" of the Navajo, who also taught at St. Mikes indian school, and was an "amateur" archeologist/local historian.....was known to have carted off several saddles from the hill I mentioned earlier. The saddles belonged to the Utes that we're buried up there. In a canyon located to the West of there, he removed several WHOLE pots, dating to Anasazi times, probably of the Keet Seel Black on Red variety, as it was traded heavily in the St. Michaels area, and is still seen in large quantities in the area if you know where to walk.

You also have the Newcombs, they we're early traders in Navajo Country.

All the others, Tanners and such, arrived after things "calmed down"
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde

Last edited by Mr Bo Jangles; 07-28-2004 at 11:45 AM..
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 07:31 PM   #18
Dineth Hearth Throth
 
BurBz's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
BurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond reputeBurBz has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,918
Credits: 22.00
Savings: 1.00
dannnggg this is getting interesting! :) ... i've heard stuff from my grandparents here as well...about how we came about and about the anasazi ruins..etc etc. as for the german thing... well i've always been told that the spaniards were called nakai's...and yes..the germans were the other besh thingy LOL.....

AND... hopis?? i thought they were called kis'aaniis??? LOL.. or however you spell it??? :50:

ALSO...the burial rituals... i've been told many many stories about those old days... and it does make you wonder and really think of maybe thats how or why our people are so fearful of death now... because of the missionaries views on death and what not.....

this is gettin good tho :)

lol...navajo kiva!!! haha.. maybe you'll get one when a navajo is half hopi/pueblo
BurBz is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 07:34 PM   #19
Member since March 2000.
 
Mr Bo Jangles's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond reputeMr Bo Jangles has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny, downtown, middle of no where...
Posts: 705
Credits: 60.00
Savings: 1.00
INtelligence and a good sense of politics and knowing when to bluff played a key role in the acquisition of such a large area of land.

BUT. You're neglecting the fact that we ARE a warring people. The Hopis called us Skull Crushers, so named because of the practice by navajos of taking large rocks and crushing the skulls of their enemies.

Look at the weaponry of the Navajo of the 1800's, sinew backed bows, long spears, patterned after Spanish Pikes, shields, three of which, we're just recently located in a cave in North Central Utah.....why so far North?

You are right, in that we we're broken up into smaller bands of navajos, spread out over a large area, that refutes your claims to PURE INTELLECT being the source for such a large reservation.

In an area this big, how does one all a grouping of people, scattered that far apart togther? We've never had any primary chiefs, or leaders that anyone really recognised as THE LEADER.

You can cite Manuelito, but he was a puppet of the Federal Government, as was Ganado Mucho. If you read thru the accounts of soldiers or military personnel, you'd see that they we're the first in line for rations and distribution, often times taking MORE than they needed to trade or sell off to other Navajos.

It was survival of the FITEST back then. Navajos we're in my estimationm more friendlier towards one another back then, united under a single cause, to oust or at least, lay claim to what was rightly there.s

They did this thru various raids or thru coersion or brute force. Navajos raided on horseback, in small parties of no more than 10. Accounts range from the Spanish and Mexicans of Santa Fe to Albuquerque, Alamo, Grants, Zuni, the Fort Defiance area, south to St. Johns, AZ, west to Joseph City, AZ and Winslow, AZ.

The Navajo are a warelike people, not the timid shepards and farmers you make us, and history makes us out to be. It's plain and simple, what would force a government like the US to it's knees? Insurgents like the Navajo of the 1800's.

Why do you think we we're held at Bosque Redondo? My own family vividly recounts our own history of internment at Hweeldi. A great great grandmother was born there, and returned from there. She recounted the ever present crying and wailing she heard there as a child, and related what little shecould remember from then, to her children and to my father in the 1940's.

Anyhoo....

You don't get sent to a place like that for no reason. It was punishment for years of raiding and warelike behavior.

We dominated this region of the US. Paiutes came to hide among us, Pueblos of the Great Pueblo Revolt came west to hide behind us. Zuni's and all other Pueblos today, still recount the fact that we raided on them and they on us.

Fact remains, we didn't get what we have today by being shepards and farmers.

Intellect played a role, but, so did war.
__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde
Mr Bo Jangles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 07-26-2004, 07:45 PM   #20
is lost in reality...
 
50cal's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute
50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute50cal has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: where no buffalo roam, but the prairie dogs do.....
Posts: 9,083
Credits: 404.87
Savings: 1.00
YEAH what he said!!! LOL......you got some good points there Mr.....I have heard of many of these stories as well thru my family and where we come from.....you got my guns anyday!!!
__________________


...And shephards we shall be. For thee my lord, for thee. Power hath descended forth from thy hand. That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command. So we shall flow a river forth to thee. And teeming with souls shall it ever be. E Nomini Patri, E Fili, E Spiritu Sancti.
50cal is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery