Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life > Native Issues Winnipeg church nixes native dancing at Habitat for Humanity event Winnipeg church nixes native dancing at Habitat for Humanity event

Reply LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-21-2007, 07:07 PM   #21
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creewoman05 View Post
Grow up, hon I have been there and done that.



There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion.
-Lord (John Emerich Edward Dalberg)
Okay.

What is being exhibited by those decrying the exercise of the church's rights, "Ignorance" or "Narrow-mindedness?"

Because the actions of the church were neither wrong or offensive.

They get to choose. It is, truly, that simple. This is NOT a "Native issue."
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-21-2007, 07:12 PM   #22
Banned
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Creewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to behold
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Surrey BC
Posts: 1,685
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Okay.

What is being exhibited by those decrying the exercise of the church's rights, "Ignorance" or "Narrow-mindedness?"

Because the actions of the church were neither wrong or offensive.

They get to choose. It is, truly, that simple. This is NOT a "Native issue."
That was not directed at the church, it was directed to you. End of story!
Creewoman05 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-21-2007, 07:16 PM   #23
Student, always learning
 
whitewave's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
whitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond reputewhitewave has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Californication
Posts: 1,307
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Thumbs down

Funny how they can bring Christianity to the lands where Native spiritual practices have been going on for centuries and not only do they think they can practice them but also push them onto others.

They do not want Native American "heathenistic" practices in their church on "their" "holy ground".....too bad their church was built on what was once "holy ground" so to speak of the very people they are forbidding to dance.

Zeke, would you for once get your head outta your a$$ and stop being so condescending and technical just for a minute? Could you for ONCE actually think of the people and the morals involved in it all instead of just the legal bullsht? Wow you must be a Bush follower. Sad for you.
__________________
"To ignore injustice is to allow it"

Peace, Love, and many blessings,
White Wave
whitewave is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-21-2007, 07:17 PM   #24
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creewoman05 View Post
That was not directed at the church, it was directed to you. End of story!
Oh. So you agree with the church's right to invoke whatever standards -- theirs, not yours -- they desire for what occurs in their building?

Then I don't see the problem or need for your squealing.

Decidedly NOT the end of the story, as your foolishness appears to be ongoing. If the church decided they didn't desire some other group in their building, would you be frothing so much? No? Then you just expect special treatment.

You are setting Natives back decades.
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-21-2007, 07:19 PM   #25
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitewave View Post
Could you for ONCE actually think of the people and the morals involved in it all instead of just the legal bullsht?
The morals involved are that we do NOT get to tell a church what they must allow on their premises.
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-21-2007, 07:30 PM   #26
Banned
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Creewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to behold
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Surrey BC
Posts: 1,685
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
You are setting Natives back decades.
As if! I posed this thread to let people know about the atrocities that are still occurring today against native people. The ignorance quote was directed to you, your whole lack empathy and understanding in this matter is appalling.
Creewoman05 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-22-2007, 01:40 AM   #27
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creewoman05 View Post
As if! I posed this thread to let people know about the atrocities that are still occurring today against native people. The ignorance quote was directed to you, your whole lack empathy and understanding in this matter is appalling.
You are out of your "poor me" gourd.

What lack of empathy?

It is your lack of understanding of the Real World that has created your whining related to this incident.

I assure you, not every slight -- perceived, deserved, presumed or otherwise -- has a damned thing to do with ANYONE being Native. You are just whining in the face of 100% justifiable reality. Churches get to choose what occurs within their doors.

Your desire to solicit "special treatment" is a grotesque, ridiculous, harmful, set-back, pseudo-racist and short-sighted horror. Do the math: should an off-shoot of the Native American Church be FORCED to allow 7th Calvary Dancers if they determine it is outside the bounds of what they desire?

If you are whining about this church exercising their rights, you should support 7th Calvary Dancers in Indian Country.

Get a grip.

FOOLISH!
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-22-2007, 11:05 AM   #28
Lovin' life,
 
Mato Winyan's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Mato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond repute
Mato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond reputeMato Winyan has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Indiana
Posts: 5,450
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 260.00
Savings: 1.00
I have to say something. When this story first came out I e mailed the pastor. It took awhile but he did respond. I'm posting both of our emails. He still hasn't responded to the last one which I don't figure he will since it's been over a week now.

Dear Pastor Hughes,

I have heard through different sources in the news media about your churches decision to not allow a Native American/First Nations family to dance at a Habitat for Humanity gathering. I have to say as being a Christian I am very much dismayed. I believe this decision was made out of ignorance and fear.

On your home page I found this....

" It is not unusual to hear people express how they feel excluded, even in the church, because of their life situations. One of our greatest human needs is to find a place where we can sense the presence of God and belong to a group of caring people who will encourage us along the way. We want you to know the love of God regardless of where you are in your spiritual journey."

Do you really feel that Kim Houle and her children felt that love of God from a group of caring people that wishes to include them in finding a place where they can seek the presence of God? I don't think that was possible.

Further in the article it stated...
" "Native spiritual dancing has its roots in a different spiritual belief system that is incongruent with traditional Christian worship," Hughes said in an e-mail."I don't think a Buddhist temple would allow a Christian pastor to speak about Jesus." "

Native spiritual dancing has its roots in a different spiritual belief system that is incongruent with traditional Christian worship.

wow. What a statement. First off the dancing that was going to be demonstrated is not a "spiritual" dance. It is of a social nature... not spiritual. In the beginning powwow dancing was a way of tribes/clans/families to gather together in the spring and summer after the months of solitude and hunger to thank the Creator for not only making it though the winter hardships... but to thank HIM for being able to gather together and thank HIM for the blessing they knew HE would bestow upon them during the coming year and to seek HIS guidance in that. Isn't that what we all, as Christians, be doing ourselves?

"I don't think a Buddhist temple would allow a Christian pastor to speak about Jesus." I think this is comparing apples to oranges here. She was not going to speak against your doctrine here. She was going to show a social dance in the midst of a celebration that happened to be in your church.

As a Christian I have been in church my entire life. My mom said I was in church nine months before I was born. *smiles* I find it sad to say that however it was not until I left the church at the age of 30 and being a mother myself, that I found Christ. I tried different denominations ... different churches. All of which unfortunately had something lacking. The love, unconditional acceptance where I could sense the presence of God in a caring, non-judgemental group that would encourage along the way. Sad isn't it? I didn't find Christ until I LEFT the church. How proud would he be of that? It was not until I LEFT ... HIS church that I became clean and sober. It was not until I LEFT ... HIS church that I was able to dedicate my life to HIM. This came after I had been sent on missions. After I was a Sunday school teacher. After I was on an evangelizing team to bring the "lost" to come to know Jesus.

When I left the mainstream church I was able to find the freedom in Christ that is spoken in His written word. I lived it. I just didn't spew forth multitudes of scripture that I happened to know by heart. I found the freedom that I could pray anywhere... not just in a church pew. I could pray outdoors... in my car... I could even pray in the bathroom if I wanted and I knew He would hear all of those prayers. I could pray with a bible, cross or pipe and He would hear each and everyone. I could pray in a church pew... or a sweatlodge with my face in the mud and each would be heard.

Ooops... I mentioned the pipe and sweatlodge. Busted! I'm a Native Christian. Now you can feel free to dismiss everything I said, or maybe, just maybe you will hear my heart here and rethink some things.

Thank you for your time and for reading this.
(my name)

PS... The churches I grew up in and attended were white mainstream churches with no Natives.


Here is his response.....

Dear (my name),

Thank you for your perspective. We probably all need to agree to disagree on most of this. Nevertheless, let me share with you our perspective so you at least know where we are coming from.



One of the meanings of the word prejudice is to pre-judge another without gaining sufficient knowledge of the facts. It is truly unfortunate that people still feel they can trust the Winnipeg Sun or the CBC to give them enough information to make a judgment. This sadly has the potential to turn presumed victims of intolerance into the intolerant themselves.



The Winnipeg Sun completely misrepresented our church. Other than wanting a comment on the story they were going to run, they made no attempt to find out who we are or what we believe. They did not bother to find out that 10% of our congregation is of Native descent. They did not visit our building and see the Métis flag that hangs front and centre in our sanctuary. They do not know that our suburban church funds two inner city churches that are almost exclusively Native. The article left the impression that our actions were racist in nature in spite of the fact that we are probably the most racially integrated church in Winnipeg with people of every color and from every continent on earth with the possible exception of Antarctica.



Here is how the situation played out in reality. We had loaned (not rented) our building to Habitat for Humanity for a volunteer appreciation night. The only thing we asked in return was that the performances would not be inconsistent with Christian values and culture. Our staff requested that Native spiritual dancing not be included, not because it was Native but because spiritual dancing has its roots in a different belief system that is incongruent with Christian worship. Though some may regard this as a debatable point, it is still not their place to make that judgment on our behalf. Freedom of religion in Canada, under the Charter, allows every faith group to decide for itself what is befitting and what is not.



Do we believe that Native people have the right to the expression of their faith and culture? Absolutely! In fact we would stand with them and fight for the right if it was denied. However, no faith or culture group, including ours, has the right to impose their expression on anyone else. I would not expect a Muslim Mosque to open their doors to allow us to preach the gospel of Jesus in their facilities, or a Jewish Synagogue to allow us to erect a Christmas nativity scene. It is their fundamental religious freedom under the Canadian Charter of Rights. I think any rational person can understand this simple argument and realize this has nothing to do with racism or prejudice. Because our building was built by Christians, using money donated for the expression of the Christian faith, our policy does not allow it to be used for the expression of other faiths. Proper investigative journalism would have discovered that this exact policy exists in almost every Native congregation in Canada, including those in predominately Aboriginal communities.



The real shame goes to the Winnipeg Sun for the irresponsible use of inflammatory language that incites hatred and racial prejudice in a city already struggling with such things. Our deepest sympathies go out to Ms Houle and her family for the hurt and disappointment that they experienced in this ordeal and for the poor way in which it was communicated to her.



For our part, Church of the Rock will continue to be open to people of all cultures, races, nationalities and faiths that would like to join together in the worship of Christ.



Sincerely

Pastor Mark

Here is the final e mail I sent that he has not answered.

Thank you so much Pastor Mark for responding. I do really appreciate that.

I'm sorry that you all were misrepresented by the Sun. This story was found by different sources and not just the Sun. It is all over the internet and is being spread on different websites including myspace.

Once again I have to quote ...... Our staff requested that Native spiritual dancing not be included, not because it was Native but because spiritual dancing has its roots in a different belief system that is incongruent with Christian worship.

It is true you all do have the right to say what goes on your property. That's a given. What I keep bringing up is that it is not a spiritual dance. It is a social dance. There is no spiritual part to it. The music is not chanting to some unknown deities. Christian natives can and do dance. This is what is most misunderstood of the native culture. (That and that every native owns a casino or lives in a tipi. *lol*)

That's the only point I really want to make and I don't know how I can get it understood.

Well, like I say... Thanks so much for writing back.

Take care,
(my name)
__________________
"We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume

Last edited by Mato Winyan; 11-22-2007 at 11:12 AM.. Reason: Had to add final e mail
Mato Winyan is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-22-2007, 12:30 PM   #29
Pow Wow Visitor
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
@Fancy_Dancer@ is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 17
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
gettin worse

as i was reading down. i saw the comments getting worse. that sucks, we prolly dont even know all the circumstances.
@Fancy_Dancer@ is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-22-2007, 02:31 PM   #30
An URBAN NDN
 
Singing Eagle's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Singing Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond repute
Singing Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond reputeSinging Eagle has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canada eh!
Posts: 2,476
Credits: 367.44
Savings: 1.00
My take - the church had a signed agreement from Habitat that included their request to have final say over performances in thier building. That Habitat signed it is unfortunate but once signed they were legally contracted to abide by what they had agreed to. Never sign without reading!

Habitat was irresponsible in extending the invitation without first clearing their performance agenda with the facility. Once the church's feelings were known, Habitat could have found another location if they wished to carry on with all performances.

Do I think it's intolerant - YES - do I think it's morally wrong and unfair to be so judgemental of another culture - YES. But they had a signed paper that gave them permission to do that.

The one thing I know to be true about Christian churches - they are the most lacking in true Christian mindedness. One reason why I left the church years ago too.
Singing Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-22-2007, 10:18 PM   #31
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Singing Eagle View Post
the church had a signed agreement from Habitat that included their request to have final say over performances in thier building.
That appears to be the bottom line.
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-23-2007, 01:37 PM   #32
Banned
 
kiowakat's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
kiowakat is a splendid one to beholdkiowakat is a splendid one to beholdkiowakat is a splendid one to beholdkiowakat is a splendid one to behold
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: St.Louis
Posts: 1,240
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
I read the whole thread lol... zeke
kiowakat is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-23-2007, 06:36 PM   #33
Banned
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Creewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to behold
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Surrey BC
Posts: 1,685
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
I read the whole thread lol... zeke
Amen!! I agree with you sister! Pun not intended either, just the fact I happen to agree with you!
Creewoman05 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-23-2007, 08:46 PM   #34
Banned
 
kiowakat's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
kiowakat is a splendid one to beholdkiowakat is a splendid one to beholdkiowakat is a splendid one to beholdkiowakat is a splendid one to behold
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: St.Louis
Posts: 1,240
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creewoman05 View Post
Amen!! I agree with you sister! Pun not intended either, just the fact I happen to agree with you!
maybe you'll be joining us soon, on his BIG ignore list. if he keeps it up with you, aye, half of pws.com is on it hahaha
kiowakat is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-23-2007, 11:21 PM   #35
Teen Dancer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Skillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scaleSkillet is off the scale
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 250
Credits: 100.00
Savings: 53.62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
should an off-shoot of the Native American Church be FORCED to allow 7th Calvary Dancers if they determine it is outside the bounds of what they desire?

If you are whining about this church exercising their rights, you should support 7th Calvary Dancers in Indian Country.
well i personally would welcome them with open arms...and we'd give them same welcome they got in 1876...
and i have little doubt you do support them already zeke....
__________________
Skillet is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-24-2007, 01:18 AM   #36
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
I saw this thread in the beginning and wasn't going to post to it either, but decided to. This is a simple case of ignorance. Wether or not this church has Indian parishioner's is irrelivant, they don't know anything about the Indian culture. This is an issue with many Christian Churches, unfortunately.

Two examples of this:
Several years ago my younges nephew was in a daycare at a christian church (his grandmother put him in it). I was taking him to and from school everyday. One day close to Thanksgiving the school sent home a letter saying that they were have an "Indian Powwow" I read this letter several times and it confused me, the area and the church were not big enough for anything like that. So I called them and asked some questions about some things and found out that they had miss spoke and all of that. The secretary invited me to come in and see it. So, I showed up in my dance clothes (fully knowing it was NOT a powwow in the sense that WE know). I had lunch with my nephew and the other children started asking me questions. So, I explained the dress that I wear and where it came from, my moccosins, the beaded star that I made and wear and what is behind it. Most of the questions were the norm and the teacher's were looking at me funny---they couldn't get me out of there fast enough either. The very next year (my nephew was still going to that school) they sent a letter home saying that they were having an "Indian Picnic" for the children and parents ONLY. I busted up laughing.

The other story is: A very good friend of mine is from OK. Her mother past away several years ago and she went home for the services. After that she did what her family had always done and she cut her hair for their reasons (I'm not saying this to get into this part). She is a Christian woman and goes to church with her family. When she got back from her mother's services she was at her church. All the people attending her church were asking her why she did that and other things that she had done. She explained it to them very nicely and the best way that she could for them to understand. In the end most of the people (and they are supposed to be adults) laughed at her and said that she was stupid and that her family ways were stupid.

Too many people think they know, but don't want to ask or actually find out. Just judge other's more for what they don't know then what they do.

I too left the church many many years ago. I never understood alot of the ways and couldn't get it and don't want to. The hypocracy and backstabbing--They can have it.
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-24-2007, 10:57 AM   #37
Banned
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Creewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to behold
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Surrey BC
Posts: 1,685
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
maybe you'll be joining us soon, on his BIG ignore list. if he keeps it up with you, aye, half of pws.com is on it hahaha
Wouldn't that be something eh? I think I have a fellow poster on my side, but he shall remain unknown
Creewoman05 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-24-2007, 01:27 PM   #38
Oldfart
 
Kiwehnzii's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Kiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond repute
Kiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,893
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Yes, I know that Mato is not a blood Indian, but what she done by e-mailing the pastor dude is exactly what any of our native leaders/advocates should be doing. Nobody seems to be demanding that this church let anyone do their culturally social dances in their building.

But..... most are trying to make them aware that these are social dances - not ceremonies. Big difference. However, if we all take the stance that Zeke has, misconceptions will always be the norm. Zeke likes the norm that non-Indians have of us.

Teaching/informing/showing that our people are every bit the same as anyone else, (with the exception of our personal ceremonial practices) is the way to educate the non-native population. Hiding away the social aspect of our culture is being ashamed of who we are. Not me. I've been to some churches where we've danced/sang and even invited interested people to join us. "David danced before the Lord with all his might" is a phrase from the Good book that I reminded them with.

Okay Zeke.... hit me with - Your desire to solicit "special treatment" is a grotesque, ridiculous, harmful, set-back, pseudo-racist and short-sighted horror.
Won't do no good. I'm a pro-Indian, Indian.
I'm not anti-white. Summa them's aight.
Kiwehnzii is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-24-2007, 05:30 PM   #39
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
most are trying to make them aware that these are social dances - not ceremonies. Big difference.
Not if they don't want them in their church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
However, if we all take the stance that Zeke has, misconceptions will always be the norm.
No, we'll just have to follow the rules of citizenship and cease being social wards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
Hiding away the social aspect of our culture is being ashamed of who we are.
Forcing it upon constituencies who legally reject it is fundamentalist radicalism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
Not me. I've been to some churches where we've danced/sang and even invited interested people to join us.
Is this the church in question? No? Pointless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
Okay Zeke.... hit me with - Your desire to solicit "special treatment" is a grotesque, ridiculous, harmful, set-back, pseudo-racist and short-sighted horror.
Oh, you've done well enough on your own. Are you pro Affirmative Action? Induced with force? To the detriment of those supposedly helped?

Or do you just disagree with law that allows folks to determine their own organizational standing with respect to who can gather, socially, within their building?

Would you be complaining if the church -- legally -- disavowed the Girl Scouts?
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-24-2007, 08:58 PM   #40
Banned
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Creewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to beholdCreewoman05 is a splendid one to behold
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Surrey BC
Posts: 1,685
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Who the hell died and made you judge jury and executioner of your fellow man? SHYT!
Creewoman05 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Did You Know?.... Kakeeya Chit Chat 19 03-23-2015 05:46 PM
Don Burnstick's 16 Thing's Women Don't Know About Native Men Crow_hunny_420 Chit Chat 34 10-29-2012 03:58 PM

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery