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Old 10-11-2000, 12:06 AM   #21
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dont know nuthin bout spiking or staking...north enough where we've already had snow here if a dancer has money put at the feet-they would certainly be seen as selfish to pick up that money or to even accept it! here: up to the arena director with the whip and every arena director I ever saw takes it to the elders always...
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Old 10-11-2000, 12:19 AM   #22
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Wow. This has been by far the best thread I have ever seen on a board. The information was all presented in a good way, and I don't think I saw a single flame. I just wanted to thank everyone for posting, even though it wasn't even my question, cause the replies here were all great.

Thanks again.
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Old 10-15-2000, 01:34 AM   #23
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Tansi?

It has all been said, it refers to honoring the dancer and the style of dance and normally the whipman or arena director takes the money to an elder or someone in the audience.
When I was young it was different, it wasnot money that was laid down, it was a gift or many little gifts such as tobacco, prints, material, beads, etc, these were given as a way to help anyone who recieved it.
here is a young boy from the Kamloops Indian band who dances grass..however it is indeed very moving to watch him dance as this young boy has Cerebral Plasy and dances with two crutches as he moves around to the beat of the drum.
It is awesome to see this young man dance his best, smiling and watching the whipmen and arena director try their best to keep up to the multiple numbers of dancers, drummers, spectators laying down money evrywhere.
It makes one think twice when you start feeling sorry for yourself becuase your rythmn is off, or you pulled a muscle or tightened up dancing, he is a remarkable young man who gives me inspiration evey time I see him.
I do know that pow-wows at home frown on money being layed down during finals in competition, but a good judge is usually not influenced by this.
Myself, whenever I am given money for helping out in giveaways, intiations, etc, I generally give half back to the committee and the other half to those less fortunate than myself, I consider myself lucky as i can afford to travel all over, stay in nice rooms and eat in restaurants, many of our people cannot and going to a pow-wow is a big thing. Especially if they have children.

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Old 10-26-2000, 10:30 AM   #24
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I'm from the Northeast, I am a Jingle Dancer and I have been honored before with money placed at my feet. around here its custom to dance around the money until the song is over then some one comes in and hands you the money. for me I felt uncomfortable keeping it. I don't compete or believe in it. I asked a MicMac elder what to do. He told me to donate it to a charity or fundraiser of some sort. but that to give it to someone else would be considered rude and an insult to whoever gave it to you. I did give the money away but I followed his advice. so next time should I give it to an Elder? or danate it to a charity like he said? maybe its just different tradtions here in the Northeast. eh?
-Liz
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Old 10-26-2000, 11:06 AM   #25
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Doesn't anybody ever stop and THINK about WHY they do the things they do?! Or does everybody just follow a so-called tradition because somebody somewhere did it and it "looked" like a tradition??

There is a story about a lady who used to cut off the legs of the Thanksgiving turkey before she cooked it. One day, her daughter asked her why she did that. The lady said she didn't know why, it was just something her mother had done but it was an old tradition. The lady asked her mother why she did that. The lady's mother said she didn't know, it was just something that HER mother had done and it was an old tradition. So, curious, they went to the old grandmother and asked her why she started this tradition. She replied, "because my pan was too small to fit the whole turkey in".

Do you really think dancing around money reflects a Native value?! Do you really think that keeping money for yourself is a Native value?! Do you really think a Native value is "honoring" a dancer by basically PAYING him or her with money?!

C'mon, people! If you don't understand the Native values and culture, you get misinformation taken as "fact" and conversations like this one.
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Old 10-26-2000, 11:54 AM   #26
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I hear ya Lngfthr.

Let me tell you of another one that I get a chuckle out of when I read about it on these forums.

Women raising there fans on the honor beats. I have read ad naueum about when tradish/jingle dress dancers should raise there fans and why they do it. I used to carpool with an older Lakota/Dakota lady whose pow wow/clebration experience dated back to the 30's. I asked her where this practice came from. She told me that when an honor song was song, for instance a veterans song, and women were dancing, during the honor beats, a mother, sister, daughter, granddaughter etc, would raise her fan or her hand to acknowledge that she had relatives who had been the service. When celebrations started to spread and drums would sing veterans/honor songs etc for contests, dancers (that understood the langauge because honor songs are song in the langauge) would raise their fan to acknowledge whatever the song was about. Of course other dancers saw this, thought it looked cool or thought they were suppose to raise their fan, so now every one does it as if it is written in stone somewhere.

I really get a chuckle out of the jingle dress forum and dancers talking about when and why you raise your fan. Ladies, while I am not Anishanabe, back when I first seen Jingle dress come on to the pow wow trail, Jingle dancers did not wear feathers, plumes, carry fans or purses.

Hey lngfthr maybe we ought to start a Loch Ness monster forum. Myths that have become legend!! what do you think?? http://www.powwows.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Sahnish

[This message has been edited by Sahnish (edited October 26, 2000).]
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Old 10-26-2000, 01:00 PM   #27
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Sahnish - the fans!! OMG!! The fans!! http://www.powwows.com/ubb/eek.gif

I have watched all dancers, not just women traditional and jingle, raise their fans or sticks, or dead animals or whatever. I have been to some macashaw pow-wows where there are so many items raised, it looks like you're going through a tunnel as you dance past!! http://www.powwows.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

These people hold their arms up so long that all the blood starts flowing to their feet, making it harder to walk or dance. Say....am I onto something or what?

I be so smart.... http://www.powwows.com/ubb/wink.gif
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Old 10-27-2000, 02:18 AM   #28
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lngfthr

Well, isn't this the point of the conversation..to teach someone that is asking a question. To me the best way to beat ignorance is through education.

Sanish

Why did you ask the older woman your question? Was it because you didn't know and wanted to know? Don't you feel that others might benefit from your new found knowledge, instead of just giggling at them?

I agree with you guy that some of these things get way out of hand and suddenly become 'tradition' and it drives me nuts too, but I feel that everyone can teach and we can learn from even the young. I realize that some folks act like what they do is the only way and will probably never change, but they still hear what you have said and some do eventually come around and wise up.

Think about it everyone, if you do something twice the same way you can call it a tradition. That's why I don't really like the term. (though for some things there is not a better one)
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Old 10-27-2000, 09:54 AM   #29
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I would agree with you except for the fact that, when an Indian says something on these boards about traditions, it is often refuted by the non-Indian dancers: Oh, no! YOU might do it that way but this how WE do it. Then all the others jump in: I agree with so-and-so, not everyone is that same, we have different traditions, blah, blah... and people continue playing Indian their own way, putting on "performances" and "teaching" other non-Indians.

I get tired of people telling Indians to teach and correct but, when we try to do that, we get argument and rebuttal and denial! Is it any wonder that we sometimes just give up and resort to humor? (Oh, by the way, here's another tidbit of insight: traditional Native parenting styles used chiding and shaming as a means of correcting behavior. Obviously, that's not a non-Native style.)

Sahnish, you know I'm an honorary Irishwoman now thanks to Keedoh so I'm with ya on the Loch Ness thing!! http://www.powwows.com/ubb/biggrin.gif McLngthr <<-- http://www.powwows.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Old 10-27-2000, 10:38 AM   #30
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Powwowbum 49

I asked the lady because I like to know why things are the way that they are. While it might be true that others might gain from what I learned, and this was many years ago by the way, do you think that info would make a difference? Do you think that because in ND we believe that a women should only raise there fan in the manner I spoke of, that dancers that have read this will stop raisng their fans now?? I don't think so. People take information and incorporate into their belief system and used this info to justify or validate what they are doing. My info for most traditional/jingle dancers just got tossed because it does not fit into most "Indians" practice these days. My purpose on this board has never been to be a teacher. As I have said in other forums there is a method or ritual to get info. If you truly wish to be "enlighten" than do your home work and get to it.

I also like to mention Indian humor here. Up here in ND and maybe the plains, We love a good laugh. If you can accomplish this "laugh" with out the person being laughed at even knowing they are the object of the joke, it is even funnier. Yeah, it is probably mean, but if it is funny, hey that is how we have survived this long. I often wonder, when I hear about pow wow "traditions" in other places if this isn't "Indin humor" at its best. I could just hear one of the boys telling this. "Yeah, I told this Chief that a true leader of the people always dances barefoot, to show that he is a common man, and so humble he doesn't even wear moccasins." Or "I gave this white guy this whistle and told him he was an official whistle carrier and they really like it when you blow a whistle on the northern plains." I guess we will never know.


Sahnish


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Old 10-27-2000, 11:20 AM   #31
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It's not just the plains people that like a good joke. I laugh more at pow-wow's than I am serious. Without humor, I truly believe that our people would not have survived.

I like you, get angry when I see a Native person's beliefs slammed. The one thing to understand is that every tribe and nation has their own customs, which you can identify with in 90 percent of these forums. Different ways for different customs. But some non-Native people do float in and, because what someone taught them was different, may think the original way was wrong. I guess maybe all of us are creatures of habit. And, tradition translates sometimes to habit.

One of the main things that many people, especially in the East have faced is attempting to maintain tradition, but adapting to the ever changing world. i.e. Our women just can not go topless any longer, and I know that's a crime to alot of people, but it's just the way it is!! http://www.powwows.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

See, there goes that humor again!! Somebody stop me........ http://www.powwows.com/ubb/wink.gif

Take care.
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Old 10-27-2000, 11:23 AM   #32
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Geez, I re-read my post and realized that I made a generalization about all women in the East. OMG!!!!!!! http://www.powwows.com/ubb/eek.gif

Pleeeeeezzzzzz forgive me!!!! Okay, okay, the women in Virginia wore no tops, okay????
And that's all I'm gonna say about this top..ic!! hahaha http://www.powwows.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Old 10-27-2000, 02:45 PM   #33
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i like to dance... and when someone honours me, it makes me dance harder... travelling is not cheap and every little bit helps... i don't who the cultural expert is...
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Old 10-29-2000, 09:44 AM   #34
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This is an interesting question... I do not know why that man did what he did at NOAC... I personally feel it was rude. As for why people put money at a dancers' feet; I was taught that it is to honor that dancer. The dancer should dance at the money until the song is over. There are several things that can happen with the money from there. The person who dropped the first dollar has the right to pick up the money and do what they want with it. They might even have someone else pick up the money and keep it... This honors both the dancer and the person that picks up the money. The point is that the person who had the money dropped at their feet has been honored. If the person who picks up the money gives it to the dancer, I was taught that the dancer should always pass it on... to continue the honoring process. They could give it to an elder, the drum that sang the song, the singer that led the song, use it to honor another dancer, etc... It is up to the way that each individual was taught... As for honoring jingle dancers... I was a jingle dancer for quite some time. I was taught that it is okay to honor a jingle dancer, but if you do it during an exibition dance, the dancer probably will not dance at the money because they are supposed to continue dancing around the arena... that is simply their style of dancing. I was also taught that it is rude to honor any dancer during the compitition because many dancers feel that they have to stop and dance at the money and that keeps some of the judges from seeing them.
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Old 10-29-2000, 02:28 PM   #35
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I have been to only a few pow wows and did not know you could give money to a dancer unless the blanket or shawl was laid out to do so! Thank you for this topic. Now I know how to thank each person that is pushing their drive harder and harder!
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Old 10-29-2000, 06:06 PM   #36
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This is an interesting post with some good replies. A few years ago in Nashville, TN I experienced this. Nashville is a contest powwow. I am glad to learn more about it. A female traditional dancer dropped the money at our feet after a fancy dance exhibition, the AD picked it up and divided it among about 5 of us. I dance for fun, not money, but was very honored by the lady's gesture and generosity. Since the money was produced after the dance there was no question about being "spiked" etc. I would like to do this myself to show my appreciation for the dancing of others so this is welcome information.

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