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Old 11-04-2008, 10:56 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Wakalapi View Post
Well, not after a chili lunch, for sure.


Good post, by the way.

I think a recurrent them in these threads regarding white people attending powwows, dancing at powwows, putting on regalia, etc., is that of patient watching and learning. Unfortunately in mainstream society instant gratification pervades. I don't know whether that's a "white" thing or just fallout from such things as technology that allows "instant" access to information and the credit market which allows folks to buy now and pay later.

As NDN people we know what it's like to sit, watch, learn and wait for answers to be given in the right time, in the right way, by the right people. That approach is rare in the rest of society in our day and age.

If you have family that are NDN and, more importantly, knowledgeable in the powwow ways, they should be able to point you in the right direction. If you don't, you will need to spend LOTS of time watching, listening, and SLOWLY building relationships with NDN people in your area. As mentioned many, many times before "putting yourself out there" for NDN people in your area will go a long way in building relationships that lead to answers down the road. Help out the elders in your community, volunteer at the local NDN center if there is one, show that you have something to GIVE and see where that takes you.

Regardless of our individual feelings toward white folks, I don't think any our ancestors' histories remain untouched from the fallout of the white man's desire to take.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:04 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Wakalapi View Post
Though I live in Washington state, my family is from the Standing Rock rez. We're Lakotas. I was taught that no real "medicine person" would every identify themselves that way, i.e. to say "I'm a medicine man." We just know who they are. It's a community thing. Anyone who calls themselves one then becomes suspect. As in wannabe or plastic shaman. Whenever someone comes to a powwow and starts acting all ceremonial and holy it makes my skin crawl. It's like a cheesy stereotype but for real, like any of Chevy Chase's movie characters but in the real world. The best thing to do as a newb at a powwow is watch and learn. You'll pick up the lingo, the terminology. It's ok if you don't know it already, even if you're a fullblood. I have relatives who aren't into powwows and that's ok. So when they show up all dark skinned and black haired and here comes some white touristy type with the plastic smile, asking what this animal represents or why that color is worn, they're like "Who the hell knows -- who said I have to be the Customer Service Rep for the Indian race today?" and walk away. LOL

So the short and rude answer is: just sit down, shut up and watch. You'll learn what you are supposed to know, when you're supposed to know it. If you need to pry info out of everybody like you have a school report due on Monday, maybe you don't deserve to know. Patience and humility are valued very dearly in these traditions. SO maybe it's ironic that some of us go on the internet to talk about our culture. But we seldom get really serious. That's why there is always a wry sense of humor on powwow related forums. It's even a modern taboo to talk about spiritual matters here. The crowd will really come down on you if you do. And I will stand behind them. Well, not after a chili lunch, for sure.


I agree. Non-ndn people who are married to ndns should sit back, listen and learn, not go out there full throttle ya know? It takes time to learn. Cannot learn it here on internet, and can't learn things in a week, a month, a year. Well maybe a year but by then one only learns a wee bit. Same with our jingle dress dancing.

Oh and........I'll be standing behind Wakalapi on that one too.

(except when he has that chili lunch) :p
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:21 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojibwaysweetie View Post
I agree. Non-ndn people who are married to ndns should sit back, listen and learn, not go out there full throttle ya know? It takes time to learn. Cannot learn it here on internet, and can't learn things in a week, a month, a year. Well maybe a year but by then one only learns a wee bit. Same with our jingle dress dancing.

Oh and........I'll be standing behind Wakalapi on that one too.

(except when he has that chili lunch) :p
To all,i have realized my mistakes and understand why many were suspect of me.I am sorry for the people i upset.I am lakota but am still learning the proper ways to do and say things.I have also learned to shut up and be still and just listen,keith.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:57 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthofAda View Post


Good post, by the way.

I think a recurrent them in these threads regarding white people attending powwows, dancing at powwows, putting on regalia, etc., is that of patient watching and learning. Unfortunately in mainstream society instant gratification pervades. I don't know whether that's a "white" thing or just fallout from such things as technology that allows "instant" access to information and the credit market which allows folks to buy now and pay later.

As NDN people we know what it's like to sit, watch, learn and wait for answers to be given in the right time, in the right way, by the right people. That approach is rare in the rest of society in our day and age.

If you have family that are NDN and, more importantly, knowledgeable in the powwow ways, they should be able to point you in the right direction. If you don't, you will need to spend LOTS of time watching, listening, and SLOWLY building relationships with NDN people in your area. As mentioned many, many times before "putting yourself out there" for NDN people in your area will go a long way in building relationships that lead to answers down the road. Help out the elders in your community, volunteer at the local NDN center if there is one, show that you have something to GIVE and see where that takes you.

Regardless of our individual feelings toward white folks, I don't think any our ancestors' histories remain untouched from the fallout of the white man's desire to take.

Yep yep. I agree here too.
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:22 AM   #105
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Lightbulb cloth for shawls

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Originally Posted by musicedu77 View Post
......garb aww heck i cant spell it right*lol* but shawl fabric wheres the cheapest to get it at...we always went to joann fabrics but they've been getting up in price...im making a shawl for my youngest sister...shes going into tradish
My Mom used to get good, gently used table clothes or curtains/drapes,at the thrift stores to use--lots of fabric for cheap AND yer recyclin ;)
Also (arrrghh can't believe I'm sayin this one lol)WalMart usually has stacks of "budget" material...inexpensive, tons of colors...good luck!(personally, I avoid wallyworld as much as possible lol)
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:30 AM   #106
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Well said!! Seems today most ppl have forgotten that "patience is a virtue"! "Good things come to those who wait", has been replaced by "I want it all and I want it now"...In today's throw-away, instant gratification society, we could all do well to remember to just sloooooooow down a bit.
My Auntie used to tease and say "Ya know, there's a reason they're called the Old Ways...its 'cuz you're old 'for ya know most of 'em! ;)" lol

Last edited by Atutuej; 11-13-2008 at 08:23 AM.. Reason: cuz i can't spell lol
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:46 AM   #107
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My Mom used to get good, gently used table clothes or curtains/drapes,at the thrift stores to use--lots of fabric for cheap AND yer recyclin ;)
Also (arrrghh can't believe I'm sayin this one lol)WalMart usually has stacks of "budget" material...inexpensive, tons of colors...good luck!(personally, I avoid wallyworld as much as possible lol)
Can't be much NDN if you don't go to Wal-mart. It's like NDN-heaven!!!!

Relax...it's a joke!
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:25 AM   #108
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well :P lol....ok i'll fess up...i luv wallyworld...its all the ppl i can't stand bein around...lol AND i ALWAYS spend too much money there LOL
*note to self, get milk & bread...and THAT is all...noooooo walk PAST the clearance aisle...go, go GO* ;) hehe
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Old 11-15-2008, 02:56 PM   #109
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my auntie used to tease and say "ya know, there's a reason they're called the old ways...its 'cuz you're old 'for ya know most of 'em! ;)" lol
i love it!!!! Lol
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Old 11-15-2008, 04:26 PM   #110
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Well I see alot of flapping but not alot of support. If I wanted my wife to feel comfortable in the pow wow circle, I'd gift her accordingly. The gift of knowledge about modesty, respect, honour and a gift of a shawl blanket. Keep it simple I always say...
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:26 PM   #111
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LOL,
That reminds me. Somebody asked me, "is it true Indians fix everything with duct tape?"
I looked at them blankly and replied in one breath,"yes it is. now move on."
Thats awsome! "now move on". LMAO
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:39 PM   #112
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well :P lol....ok i'll fess up...i luv wallyworld...its all the ppl i can't stand bein around...lol AND i ALWAYS spend too much money there LOL
*note to self, get milk & bread...and THAT is all...noooooo walk PAST the clearance aisle...go, go GO* ;) hehe

LOL..Go in for a loaf of bread, and come out 45 minutes later with 12 bags, and no bread!
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Old 11-19-2008, 04:44 PM   #113
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new guy

hello to all! i'm new to this site. and found it while researching loom beadwork(a hobby of mine). i just wanted to know, since this thread got be thinking about it. has any one hear or know of the boy scouts of america program titled order of the arrow. and if so what do you think of it. i know i'm asking for it with this kinda question but i am concerned about being offensive, as that is not the intent.
btw love the web site. whish i had found it years ago.
thanks
JT.
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:16 PM   #114
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:07 PM   #115
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Oh Pyro, you are going the moderators work hard and there will be tons of messages flying..........
Boy Scouts are an easy target, kind of like when you put you guys in blue suits on top horses in the middle of a prairie
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:16 PM   #116
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yes i know. but i am concerned about programs like that sending the wrong message or being missinterpreted.
personally i think many times programs like that are a disjustice. mostly because of a lack of knowledge and a lack of people caring enough to know the difference. as with most orginazations like it. bsa is not in direct controll of all its members. since there are local troops and such in a given geographic area. that are satilites of the main organizaton. and are run locally. like any thing else theres good and bad. its up to the people who run it. so bring it on i can take it.
but please i am serious in asking i would like honest feedback wheather its good or bad. thankyou. sorry i cant spell.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:40 PM   #117
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yes i know. but i am concerned about programs like that sending the wrong message or being missinterpreted.
personally i think many times programs like that are a disjustice. mostly because of a lack of knowledge and a lack of people caring enough to know the difference. as with most orginazations like it. bsa is not in direct controll of all its members. since there are local troops and such in a given geographic area. that are satilites of the main organizaton. and are run locally. like any thing else theres good and bad. its up to the people who run it. so bring it on i can take it.
but please i am serious in asking i would like honest feedback wheather its good or bad. thankyou. sorry i cant spell.
Just my opinion here...
It seems to me that the Order of the Arrow started with good intentions many years ago.
They received good solid information from some knowledgeable people; however those people are no longer involved with them, so they have kind of gone their own way....

So without proper guidance they have drifted off into their very own interpretations of various aspects of Native crafts, Traditions and Lore

The Order of the Arrow does not have a good reputation within Native communities. The sad thing is it has taken on a life of its own, even here in Oklahoma they do things totally and absolutely without any thought to asking guidance from native communities around them.
As if we are gone and they are recreating something that was around thousands of years ago

They have gatherings with Drums and Dancers and "do their own thing"......
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:31 PM   #118
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Josiah thankyou for your reply. i ask these ?'s knowing about what kind of anwser i would get but i am glad you responded as you did with a straight forward response.
you have confirmed some of my fears of what the native view of the o.a. is. irealize you were speaking for yourself. but i can imagine that your opinion is greatly shared by others.
let me start by making a state ment to all who are following this.
i am a pain old white boy. dont know any better way to say that. i dont really buy in to the whole pc movement.
to be specific most of my family is dutch/irish. but that dosent matter.
i am actively involved with the boy scouts as an adult leader with the local troop in my area. i grew up in the scouts as a child. i was involved with o.a. then but did not understand most of why we did things we did within the o.a.
now as an adult leader i find myself questioning the practices of the o.a. for the reasons i have stated prevously.
this past week a few of the other leaders in our troop aproched me and pitched the idea of our troop starting it's own o.a. cerimony / dance team.
this was a bit of a shock to me as our troop has o.a. members in it.( not all scouts are) but has not been very active in o.a. events. i told them we needed to do more research into this before became the blind leading the blind so to speak.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:51 PM   #119
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please help

sorry thought i had another post before this one. i hope it was not cleared by admin for something. will fill in the blanks if it doesn't show.
i was told "dont worry we have an advisor coming to talk to us" i was excited thinking they had found some local native to talk to us. as is the normall bsa. policy to have an expert speaker teach or instruct the boys on upcoming events or task. however to my disapointment the "advisor" was mearly some old man who is very in volved with the o.a. on a distric level and i'm sure has never even met a true native american.
sorry if thats no the acepted title i dont know a better one. some one please corect me if needed.
so i am back to square one with this. an as an adult leader i dont want to continue a legacy of missinformation. so i humbly ask you all what can i do to help stop this. i would love to be able to contact someone localy who is willing to help and be a compidant advisor. so we can try to start changing public opion of the scouts and o.a. in genral. if it's not a lost cause allready. i know that the troop will move forward with this venture with or without my input. but i know they are looking to me for help because they know i have done many native crafts as a hobby for years. but i myself dont know any meaning (if there is one)to the designs or colors in my crafts. or there proper idended use. i have done them only for my own enjoy ment to pass the time as i found it to be a unique art style. i do not dress up and dance or any thing just do it to pass the time. so i beg you some one please help.

Last edited by pyro3256; 11-19-2008 at 11:53 PM.. Reason: lost post
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:18 AM   #120
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ok i'll try this again. my troop informed me at our last meating that they want to start an o.a. cerimony / dance team.
i don't want to continue the miss information. i told them we needed to research it some more. before diving in. i found this all to be a suprize as my troop has some o.a. members(not all scouts are) but has not been very active with o.a. events.
ok that sums it up in short.
thakyou for the reply. josiah i am sure others share your feelings. i hope to change that with help.
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