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  • Are there Eastern Blackfeet/Blackfoot?

    Okay, here it is, a new thread.
    So, a lot of people in the East say they "have a little Blackfoot" or "Blackfeet Indian in them" usually "way back".

    And while for many people, it just means non-Cherokee Eastern Indian that they lump into a group.

    Other people say there are or were Blackfoot or Blackfeet Indians in the East.

    Blackfoot church in IN:
    Memorial To Blackfoot Church~History

    Origin of Eastern "Blackfoot" term
    Mitsawokett: A 17th Century Native American Community in Central Delaware

    Searching for Saponi Town -- Eastern Siouan, Eastern Blackfoot Descendants

    I was told by friends long ago that the Eastern Blackfoot/Blackfeet had nothing to do with the nations out west, it was a nickname for some eastern tribe nobody remembers anything about. Some say the name Saponi is from those words.

    I figured there were probably lots of native peoples that might use that name or have been called that by whites who couldn't pronounce the real names or who saw their blackened moccasins. Like most people who have heard the eastern blackfoot thing, usually it goes like this, the eastern are blackfeet and the western are blackfoot. But the old records show that blackfoot was the recorded term used, whether a euphamism or not. So that is another part of it.

    So here is your debate! I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not any of it.

  • #2
    I'd like to see samples of the language these eastern "blackfoot" speak.

    The Blackfoot Confederacy has within its ranks the Tsuu T'ina - aka Sarcee (Dene/Athabaskan based) which are linguistically unrelated to the Blackfoot language (Algonkian based).

    At one time, the Gros Venture (Atsina) were considered part of the confederacy.

    In anthropological theories, it is believed that the Blackfoot (which would only include the Siksika and not the Piegan or Kainaa) migrated from the Northeast part of what is now the US in approx the 12th century.

    (so my take is that if someone is claiming a 'Blackfoot" ancestor from the east... they'd better have records going back until at least the 12th century...)


    The language of the Siksika, is based in Algonkian, same as the Crees, Nisnobs, Innu and Mi'kmaq and other members of that linguistic group. The language of the Piegan and Kainaa is also based in Algonkian - be the same as a brit and a person from TN - they speak English but with two very different accents, vocabulary, vernacular and dialects.

    Just to throw in a mix.. the Stoney or Nakoda are also present in the geographical area as well. They are related to the Lakota and Dakota.
    Last edited by yaahl; 03-30-2013, 09:57 AM.
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. — Robert A. Heinlein

    I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by yaahl View Post
      I'd like to see samples of the language these eastern "blackfoot" speak.

      The Blackfoot Confederacy has within its ranks the Tsuu T'ina - aka Sarcee (Dene/Athabaskan based) which are linguistically unrelated to the Blackfoot language (Algonkian based).

      At one time, the Gros Venture (Atsina) were considered part of the confederacy.

      In anthropological theories, it is believed that the Blackfoot (which would only include the Siksika and not the Piegan or Kainaa) migrated from the Northeast part of what is now the US in approx the 12th century.

      (so my take is that if someone is claiming a 'Blackfoot" ancestor from the east... they'd better have records going back until at least the 12th century...)


      The language of the Siksika, is based in Algonkian, same as the Crees, Nisnobs, Innu and Mi'kmaq and other members of that linguistic group. The language of the Piegan and Kainaa is also based in Algonkian - be the same as a brit and a person from TN - they speak English but with two very different accents, vocabulary, vernacular and dialects.

      Just to throw in a mix.. the Stoney or Nakoda are also present in the geographical area as well. They are related to the Lakota and Dakota.
      Some of the Saponi is based on Tutelo, because they were adopted by them at some point. The Saura, Cheraw, Sissipahaw, and Catawba are called Siouan.

      The Minor Vocabularies of Tutelo and Saponi (American Language Reprints, 26) by Edward Sapir and Leo Joachim Frachtenberg

      Language/word examples:
      Tutelo-Saponi Language Lesson
      Tutelo Words

      Here is pretty complete listing of the tribes in the area and how they migrated and merged:
      http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mo.../faqs/faq2.htm

      I think the Siksika is what they do talk about. The connection if any would be so long ago and there was so much migration and regrouping, even the English language has changed significantly.
      Some say the name Saponi come from sapa.

      Edward Sapir is a pretty famous linguist, I just found that book. Most of cognitive linguistics is based on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (Linguistic Relativity).

      Comment


      • #4
        Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.

        And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
        ...it is what it is...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by wyo_rose View Post
          Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.

          And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
          It was in the links in the other thread. I can repost them, or just google it. oh, sorry, top post in this thread, several links.
          Last edited by muskrat_skull; 03-31-2013, 10:50 AM. Reason: in this thread

          Comment


          • #6
            The Confederacy used to hunt and forage on both sides of the current Canada-USA border. But both governments forced them to end their nomadic traditions and settle on "Indian reserves" ...The Niitsitapi, also known as the Blackfoot Indians, reside in the Great Plains of Montana and the Canadian provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan.[6] Only one of the Niitsitapi are called Blackfoot or Siksika. The name is said to have come from the color of the peoples’ moccasins, made of leather. They had typically dyed or painted the soles of their moccasins black. One legendary story claimed that the Siksika walked through ashes of prairie fires, which in turn colored the bottoms of their moccasins black.[6] Anthropologists believe the Niitsitapi had not originated in the Great Plains of the Midwest North America, but rather migrated from the upper Northeastern part of the country.

            Due to language and cultural patterns, anthropologists believe that the Blackfoot originally coalesced as a group whilst living in the forests of what is now the Northeastern United States. They were mostly located around the modern-day border between Canada and the state of Maine. By 1200, the Niitsitapi had decided to relocate in search of more land.[citation needed] They moved west and settled for a while north of the Great Lakes in present-day Canada, but had to compete with existing tribes. They decided to leave the Great Lakes area and keep moving west.[7]
            Blackfoot Confederacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wyo_rose View Post
              Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.

              And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
              I was under the impression 'Siouan' is the plural of 'Sioux'.


              Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


              "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

              Mr. Rossie Freeman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by yaahl View Post
                I'd like to see samples of the language these eastern "blackfoot" speak.

                The Blackfoot Confederacy has within its ranks the Tsuu T'ina - aka Sarcee (Dene/Athabaskan based) which are linguistically unrelated to the Blackfoot language (Algonkian based).

                At one time, the Gros Venture (Atsina) were considered part of the confederacy.

                In anthropological theories, it is believed that the Blackfoot (which would only include the Siksika and not the Piegan or Kainaa) migrated from the Northeast part of what is now the US in approx the 12th century.

                (so my take is that if someone is claiming a 'Blackfoot" ancestor from the east... they'd better have records going back until at least the 12th century...)


                The language of the Siksika, is based in Algonkian, same as the Crees, Nisnobs, Innu and Mi'kmaq and other members of that linguistic group. The language of the Piegan and Kainaa is also based in Algonkian - be the same as a brit and a person from TN - they speak English but with two very different accents, vocabulary, vernacular and dialects.

                Just to throw in a mix.. the Stoney or Nakoda are also present in the geographical area as well. They are related to the Lakota and Dakota.
                This is an excerpt from a Southeast tribe.


                Language

                The earliest Europeans in the Carolinas were astounded by the linguistic diversity of what is now the Southeastern United States. Within the region now known as North Carolina, three language families were represented, as distinct from one another as Indo-European languages are from Uralic languages:
                The Hatteras, Chowan, Moratok, Pamlico, Secotan, Machapunga, and the Weapemeoc of the coastal plain spoke a variety of Algonquian languages.
                The Cherokee, Tuscarora, Coree, and Meherrin, who inhabited homelands from the coastal plain to the Appalachian Mountains, spoke a variety of Iroquoian languages.
                The Catawba, Cheraw, Cape Fear, Eno, Keyauwee, Occaneechi, Tutelo, Saponi, Shakori, Sissipahaw, Sugeree, Wateree, Waxhaw, and Waccamaw of the Cape Fear River and Piedmont regions, were related Siouan-speaking peoples.
                The ancestral Siouan Woccon language of the Waccamaw Siouan Indians of North Carolina was lost due to devastating population losses and social disruption of the 18th and 19th centuries, and survives in only a handful of vocabulary items that were recorded in the early 1700s.

                Still no mention of Blackfoots.


                Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


                "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

                Mr. Rossie Freeman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
                  I was under the impression 'Siouan' is the plural of 'Sioux'.
                  Dictionary definition of SIOUAN:
                  n a member of a group of North American Indian peoples who spoke a Siouan language and who ranged from Lake Michigan to the Rocky Mountains
                  Synonyms:
                  Sioux
                  Examples:
                  show 4 examples...
                  Types:
                  hide 25 types...
                  Biloxi
                  a member of the Siouan people of southeastern Mississippi
                  Catawba
                  a member of the Siouan people formerly living in the Carolinas
                  Crow
                  a member of the Siouan people formerly living in eastern Montana
                  Dakota
                  a member of the Siouan people of the northern Mississippi valley; commonly called the Sioux
                  Dhegiha
                  any member of a Siouan people speaking one of the Dhegiha languages
                  Gros Ventre, Hidatsa
                  a member of the Sioux people formerly inhabiting an area along the Missouri river in western North Dakota
                  Iowa, Ioway
                  a member of the Siouan people formerly living in Iowa and Minnesota and Missouri
                  Missouri
                  a member of the Siouan people formerly inhabiting the valley of the Missouri river in Missouri
                  Ofo
                  a member of the Siouan people living in the Yazoo river valley in Mississippi
                  Oto, Otoe
                  a member of the Siouan people inhabiting the valleys of the Platte and Missouri rivers in Nebraska
                  Eastern Sioux, Santee, Santee Dakota, Santee Sioux
                  a member of the eastern branch of the Sioux
                  Lakota, Teton, Teton Dakota, Teton Sioux
                  a member of the large western branch of Sioux people which was made up of several groups that lived on the plains
                  Tutelo
                  a member of the Siouan people of Virginia and North Carolina
                  Winnebago
                  a member of the Siouan-speaking people formerly living in eastern Wisconsin south of Green Bay; ally of the Menomini and enemy of the Fox and Sauk people
                  Brule
                  a member of a group of Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
                  Hunkpapa
                  a member of the Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux and who formerly lived in the western Dakotas; they were prominent in resisting the white encroachment into the northern Great Plains
                  Kansa, Kansas
                  a member of the Siouan people of the Kansas river valley in Kansas
                  Miniconju
                  a member of a group of Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
                  Ogalala, Oglala
                  a member of the Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux and who formerly inhabited the Black Hills of western South Dakota
                  Maha, Omaha
                  a member of the Siouan people formerly living in the Missouri river valley in northeastern Nebraska
                  Osage
                  a member of the Siouan people formerly living in Missouri in the valleys of the Missouri and Osage rivers; oil was found on Osage lands early in the 20th century
                  Ponca, Ponka
                  a member of the Siouan people of the Missouri river valley in northeastern Nebraska
                  Quapaw
                  a member of the Siouan people of the Arkansas river valley in Arkansas
                  Sihasapa
                  a member of a group of Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
                  Two Kettle
                  a member of the Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
                  Type of:
                  Buffalo Indian, Plains Indian
                  a member of one of the tribes of American Indians who lived a nomadic life following the buffalo in the Great Plains of North America

                  a family of North American Indian languages spoken by the Sioux
                  Synonyms:
                  Siouan language
                  Types:
                  hide 21 types...
                  Biloxi
                  the Siouan language spoken by the Biloxi
                  Catawba
                  the Siouan language spoken by the Catawba
                  Chiwere
                  the Siouan language spoken by the Iowa and Oto and Missouri
                  Crow
                  a Siouan language spoken by the Crow
                  Dakota
                  the Siouan language spoken by the Dakota
                  Dhegiha
                  a branch of the Siouan languages
                  Gros Ventre, Hidatsa
                  a Siouan language spoken by the Hidatsa
                  Hunkpapa
                  a Siouan language spoken by the Hunkpapa
                  Ofo
                  a Siouan language spoken by the Ofo
                  Ogalala, Oglala
                  a Siouan language spoken by the Oglala
                  Santee
                  the Siouan language spoken by the Santee
                  Tutelo
                  the Siouan language spoken by the Tutelo
                  Winnebago
                  the Siouan language spoken by the Winnebago
                  Iowa, Ioway
                  a dialect of the Chiwere language spoken by the Iowa
                  Missouri
                  a dialect of the Chiwere language spoken by the Missouri
                  Oto, Otoe
                  a dialect of the Chiwere language spoken by the Oto
                  Kansa, Kansas
                  the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Kansa
                  Omaha
                  the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Omaha
                  Osage
                  the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Osage
                  Ponca, Ponka
                  the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Ponca
                  Quapaw
                  the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Quapaw

                  adj.
                  of or relating to the Sioux people or their language and culture

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wyo_rose View Post
                    Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.
                    You need to move your mouse to each of the links in the first post of the thread and click on it. You will see a new web page displayed in your browser, one is all about the "Eastern Blackfoot" in great detail. If you reach these pages and still experience difficulty then well that's a problem only you can solve.

                    Originally posted by wyo_rose View Post
                    And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux.
                    About as authoritative as saying "I got some Blackfoot Indian blood in me way back..."

                    And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
                    Leaving aside the gross generalization and whether or not Eastern Siouan is "more often call Catawban", isn't the above quoted statement just a "gentle euphamism" for saying "the only real Indians are the ones in the cowboy movies"? Or to frame a deeper argument of romanticized cultural superiority or otherness? The temporal qualification to your reluctant reversal of position and admission of some relationship between the language families is invalid and non-sensical as the languages either are or aren't related. You are just dragging your feet.

                    By what parameters do you disqualify the 21 or so Eastern Siouan languages from membership in the Siouan language family and qualify them in a separate and distinctly unique non-Western Siouan "Catawban" language family, what is the proximity for all those languages and is this a more "modern" and more importantly accurate term/classification?

                    The Catawban, or Eastern Siouan, languages form a small language family in east North America. The Catawban family is a branch of the larger Siouan aka Siouan–Catawban family....The Catawban family consists of two languages:
                    Catawba (†)
                    Woccon (†)
                    Both are now extinct (†). They were not closely related.
                    Oops! Guess not.

                    Tutelo Language, part of the WESTERN SIOUAN language family: Hale published a brief grammar and vocabulary in 1883, and confirmed the language as Siouan through comparisons with Dakota and Hidatsa.[1] His excitement at finding an ancient Dakotan tongue once widespread in Virginia, to be preserved on an Iroquois reserve in Ontario, was considerable.[4] Previously, the only recorded information on the language had been a short list of words and phrases collected by Lt. John Fontaine at Fort Christanna in 1716, and a few assorted terms recorded by colonial sources such as John Lederer, Abraham Wood, Hugh Jones, and William Byrd II. Hale noted the testimony of colonial historian Robert Beverley, Jr. that the presumably related dialect of the Occaneechi was used as a lingua franca by all the tribes in the region of whatever linguistic stock, and was known to the chiefs, "conjurers", and priests of all tribes, who even used it in their ceremonies, just as European priests used Latin. Hale's grammar also noted further comparisons to Latin and ancient Greek in terms of the classical nature of Tutelo's rich variety of verb tenses available to the speaker, including what he remarked as an 'aorist' perfect verb tense ending in "-wa".[1]
                    James Dorsey, another Siouan linguist, collected extensive vocabulary and grammar samples around the same time as Hale, as did Hewitt a few years later. Frachtenberg and Sapir both visited in the first decade of the 1900s and found only a handful of words were still remembered, by a very few Cayuga of Tutelo ancestry. Speck did much fieldwork in preserving their traditions in the 1930s, but found little of the speech remaining. Mithun managed to collect a handful of terms still remembered in 1980.[3]
                    The Tutelo language as preserved by these efforts is now believed to have been mutually intelligible with, if not identical to, the speech of other Virginia Siouan groups in general, including the Monacan and Manahoac and Nahyssan confederacies, as well as the subdivisions of Occaneechi, Saponi, etc.
                    In the 21st century there has been interest, especially among descendants of these original native groups, in contemporary language revitalization.[5]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I guess what I am having trouble with is the cross over between what would be an extension of a migration of a people from east to west (algonkian or proto-algonkian) who ended up being called "the Blackfoot" by others not themselves to what is allegedly remaining in the east.

                      We are a continent of misnamed peoples. Our tribal names were placed upon us by those who didn't speak our languages. What we call ourselves has been one of many ways to make us disappear.

                      Many of your groupings are not based on a natural family or clanship but rather colonization and being in the wrong place at the time of the Indian Agent showing up to check off names.

                      Families that happen to be in the same area for fishing camps were lumped together as a "band" and thus named accordingly. Members that were absent because of being off fishing somewhere else ended up with a different name.

                      If these easterners are calling themselves Blackfoot and they are not of the same or similar linguistic base as the algonkian (proto or otherwise) then they are not the same people. They are by all accounts, something else with a misnomer attached to them. However, that said many of the so called great linguistic scholars in Aboriginal languages made half their crap up about their language understanding. They imposed linguistic rules that simply can not be used here with many of the languages.

                      These colonizers made many mistakes in recording and studying our languages, groupings and land use. I am always cautious when using their references to us. If a Haida talks about a Haida, we use certain words that indicate that we understand the construct of our societies, houses and clans. We use our words not those imposed upon us by some linguist that tries to see a connection to their own and when they can't they say..."It's a language isolate".

                      As Josiah is often seen to say, "we all have our creation stories and our teachings...a mass migration over an ice bridge is not one of them." Our entire history according to whiteman scholarship has little known fact in it...it is primarily based on their theories that allow them to feel good that we might not always have been here - so therefore the stealing of the land isn't as bad as we make it out.

                      The Dene/Dine are what appears two distinct groups according to some linguists and anthropologists. But when the north was opened up in the late 1900 after the gold rush, there was a "discovery" that these two groups were linguistically connected. Albert Gallatin the linguist that studied the languages of the north, was quited as:

                      "I have designated them by the arbitrary denomination of Athabaskans, which derived from the original name of the lake.

                      —1836"

                      Albert Gallatin’s arbitrary designation has unfortunate connotations as the term describes a shallow, weedy lake rather than a coherent people with shared language and culture. Most Athabaskans prefer to be identified by their specific language and location, however the general term persists in linguistics and anthropology despite alternative suggestions such as “Dene”.

                      All those codetalkers that the US thought were the only ones able to speak their language... well we have an entire population up here and much closer at that point to being "discovered" by the Japanese that speaks the same language. In the arrogance of the colonizer, it was assumed we all lived in little idyllic camps along the rivers and never traveled, split or migrated away - taking with us the language and ways.

                      If Japan had successfully managed to cross the Alaskan territory and came across the Atha'b/Dene (which is another name attached by a non-speaker - this time it was a Cree - Athabaskan is a Cree word) in situ, the war in the Pacific might have had a very different outcome. It was our isolation that prevented the knowledge that we also spoke the same language as the codetalkers.
                      (the irony is the US Army was all over our territory from 1942 and no one made the linguistic connection - it was assumed that we were all different - give us a different name and we are allegedly not the same.)

                      In my territory, the band name is Champagne - named after a member of the Dalton Trail builders. In their language the place is called - Shadhäla-ra. It was and still is a place where the Tlingit, Tutchone come to meet.

                      Now back to the Blackfoot/feet. I think that like the "western" tribes of the 1970s and 1990s new age followers, that everyone wanted to have a connection. It seems that a particular group is named to be the tribe of the day for these folks.

                      The problem is now with online info, interconnectedness with each other, stronger presence to the public it's getting harder to find these remote tribes to all of a sudden become a member of or have an ancestor.

                      So let's think about that aspect for a moment. The Lakota, Cheyenne, Commanche, Cherokee, etc have all had their turn at the new ager mimicking them and trying to be them or the average joe laying claim to being part something...indian. Now because of tribal documentation being available - too easy to figure out if someone is a fake indian. However, people like the Germans, Poles and new agers still want to be Indian so now they are finding ways to lay claims of native ancestry through historical- and often defunct tribes. These folks don't want the hassle of having to change out their "plains indian" outfits they worked so hard on so they have to find a tribe that are either big enough population that it would be hard to know everyone or isolated enough and far away enough that no one will bother to check their story. Crees, Stoney, Anishnobs, Dene while a very cool plains people, aren't being used because they are in Canada - too hard to explain why the family history has been in the US for generations... eastern tribes just don't have the romanticized mystique of the plains so they are often disregarded by these folks.

                      So that leaves the smaller plains folks - the Blackfoot... and if anyone does try to check there is the get out of the lie by saying, well my family came from Canada side so the records are there. The there are the tenuous ones that claim an eastern "Blackfoot". I saw a few people try to say they were Lakota a few years back... the US Lakota never heard of them... so their story changed to really being Nakoda from Canada - "ya know, how my family had to run away and hide in the hills because of Custer etc - but we came back to the US when it was safe" excuse.

                      It seems that the US is running out of tribes that aren't well known enough to have these new agers and wannabes to attach themselves - they are having to dig deeper to find that one tribe that no longer exists but somehow their family survived with the culture intact to claim it these days.
                      A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. — Robert A. Heinlein

                      I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Awesome post Y!

                        People pay for those DNA tests...then they claim nativeness based upon results...

                        ...supposedly we all came from Adam & Eve anyways? I got their DNA somewhere on me...
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Don't know about you AK, but my creation was from the birth of humans from a clam that brought us ot the surface. Not sure who this Adam and Eve are...lol...were they Blackfoot? :)
                          A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. — Robert A. Heinlein

                          I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by muskrat_skull View Post
                            You need to move your mouse to each of the links in the first post of the thread and click on it. You will see a new web page displayed in your browser, one is all about the "Eastern Blackfoot" in great detail. If you reach these pages and still experience difficulty then well that's a problem only you can solve.

                            About as authoritative as saying "I got some Blackfoot Indian blood in me way back..."



                            Leaving aside the gross generalization and whether or not Eastern Siouan is "more often call Catawban", isn't the above quoted statement just a "gentle euphamism" for saying "the only real Indians are the ones in the cowboy movies"? Or to frame a deeper argument of romanticized cultural superiority or otherness? The temporal qualification to your reluctant reversal of position and admission of some relationship between the language families is invalid and non-sensical as the languages either are or aren't related. You are just dragging your feet.

                            By what parameters do you disqualify the 21 or so Eastern Siouan languages from membership in the Siouan language family and qualify them in a separate and distinctly unique non-Western Siouan "Catawban" language family, what is the proximity for all those languages and is this a more "modern" and more importantly accurate term/classification?



                            Oops! Guess not.
                            Wow. For not having a dog in the fight. LOL


                            In having lived amongst the Siouan Indians of Southeastern North Carolina for decades and raising a family there, I have yet, in 40 years, to hear someone speak the Woccon language. I have, met or know, at least one member of every state recognized North Carolina tribe (with the exception of the Sappony)and never once, have I heard them speak Woccon.

                            Having John White, write down Woccon words, and hearing Woccon words, are not the same thing. Dr. Pat Lerch, an anthropologist and the University of North Carolina at Wilmington worked closely with the natives of the region and would come to my office on occasion. Never once did I hear her speak of the Woccon language.

                            One of the greatest barriers in many of the Eastern tribes seeking Federal Recognition is having a language.

                            On with the Blackfoot discussion! lol


                            Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


                            "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

                            Mr. Rossie Freeman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
                              Wow. For not having a dog in the fight. LOL


                              In having lived amongst the Siouan Indians of Southeastern North Carolina for decades and raising a family there, I have yet, in 40 years, to hear someone speak the Woccon language. I have, met or know, at least one member of every state recognized North Carolina tribe (with the exception of the Sappony)and never once, have I heard them speak Woccon.

                              Having John White, write down Woccon words, and hearing Woccon words, are not the same thing. Dr. Pat Lerch, an anthropologist and the University of North Carolina at Wilmington worked closely with the natives of the region and would come to my office on occasion. Never once did I hear her speak of the Woccon language.
                              Well, apparently at some people, these people did. The Woccan aren't part of this discussion. They aren't claiming blackfoot ancestry.
                              One of the greatest barriers in many of the Eastern tribes seeking Federal Recognition is having a language.

                              On with the Blackfoot discussion! lol
                              Nah, if you guys can't bother to read the material for the argument before discussing it, read and accurately understand and quote my replies, I'm not wasting my time arguing it. I'm not getting paid to educate people, especially when they make no effort to even understand the arguments for and against.

                              I really don't have a dog in this fight. I just like seeing how people can be and the lengths they can go to try to defend themselves. Racial bias is bias whether its from ndns or non-ndns.

                              I mean, who are you and I to tell these people who and what they are? You don't even know what group of people are in question in this argument.

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