DNA Tests

[wyo_rose]

Does anyone have info on the best DNA test to take to find out ethic origins?

Someone asked me, and I've actually been thinking about it too, because although one of my GGGrandmothers is listed on the Indian Census as being Shoshone, I know she was not from here and it would be interested to see what tribe she is from.

I do see that most tests don't break it down to specific tribes, due to the lack of tribal people around willing to trust the testers enough to have a big group of data to compare (wonder why ), or maybe lack of sophistication on the testing side.

Any thoughts on this subject? On a Monday morning??

[wyo_rose]

Guide to Ethnic DNA Testing: How to Prove Your Ancestors? Ethnicity

[Joe's Dad]

Does anyone have info on the best DNA test to take to find out ethic origins?

Someone asked me, and I've actually been thinking about it too, because although one of my GGGrandmothers is listed on the Indian Census as being Shoshone, I know she was not from here and it would be interested to see what tribe she is from.

I do see that most tests don't break it down to specific tribes, due to the lack of tribal people around willing to trust the testers enough to have a big group of data to compare (wonder why ), or maybe lack of sophistication on the testing side.

Any thoughts on this subject? On a Monday morning??

I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Got the club goin' up, on a Tuesday
Got your girl in the cut and she choosay

[DaisyMaisy]

Our family has done it - we used Ancestry's test. It was pretty interesting, but I don't know if the specifics are skewed toward Europeans. It had a whole variety of European, though. If you have any white folks in your background you can figure out if they were Central or Eastern European or British Isles or whatnot. We found out we are 1% Turkish. We don't know where that came from! (well, Turkey I guess).

Hopefully the tests have a good diversity of information for all backgrounds but I'm not sure. I can see how Indians might not be thrilled with geneticists poking about compiling data on everyone, with good reason!

[OLChemist]

I do see that most tests don't break it down to specific tribes, due to the lack of tribal people around willing to trust the testers enough to have a big group of data to compare (wonder why ), or maybe lack of sophistication on the testing side.

For those not familiar with the issues of trust and intellectual property and genetic testing in Native communities:

Havasupia v University of Arizona Board of Regents

What needs to be understood about these tests is the quality of the information extracted from the data is dependent to a large degree on the size of the database used. The clinical side of these tests is relatively easy.

The human genome is huge -- about 3 billion nucleotides. But ca. 99.5% of our DNA is pretty much just like anyone else's. Less than half a precent of the base pairs differ between individuals. So, only alleles (sections of DNA that encode a particular protein) that are polymorphic -- have usually one nucleotide base pair difference -- are useful in this type of work. And roughly 1% of these have sufficiently high frequency that 1% or more of the population has a particular variation. Then these variations need to show stability through the process of procreation and over the span of generations. The correlation of an allele to disease, phenotype variation, or population distribution is teased out through complex statistical analysis.

While the percentages of variations that are present are small, the number of alleles is huge. So sample sizes used to find and track variations must also be huge. A lot of the genetic breakthroughs are functions, not so much of improved clinical chemistry, but of ever larger numbers of genes mapped and individuals sampled. Below is a paper from Nature that will give you some idea of the kinds of techniques used. (Don't be alarmed if you don't understand any of it. This information is so specialized only those in the field understand such papers. Personally, I just read 'em and think wow this is what happens in you stay awake during statistics and don't you just love your acronyms.)

Nature: Human Haplotype Map Project, Phase I

So, when you buy these tests, you're not just buying what markers on which genes, but you're buying computer algorithms used to tease out trends.

What I have never really understood is the urge to hunt ancestors among the base pairs (disease is another matter). I've never really bought into a blood connection to culture, except as your kin shape your culture. With epigenetics is pointing to ancestral environmental experience affecting the expression of inherited genes and neuropsychology to language shaping cognitive structures, we are far more "nurture" than "nature" I think. The only thing I find in DNA is an awesome testimony to unfathomable scope and complexity of the Creator's handiwork.

[Joe's Dad]

For those not familiar with the issues of trust and intellectual property and genetic testing in Native communities:

Havasupia v University of Arizona Board of Regents

What needs to be understood about these tests is the quality of the information extracted from the data is dependent to a large degree on the size of the database used. The clinical side of these tests is relatively easy.

The human genome is huge -- about 3 billion nucleotides. But ca. 99.5% of our DNA is pretty much just like anyone else's. Less than half a precent of the base pairs differ between individuals. So, only alleles (sections of DNA that encode a particular protein) that are polymorphic -- have usually one nucleotide base pair difference -- are useful in this type of work. And roughly 1% of these have sufficiently high frequency that 1% or more of the population has a particular variation. Then these variations need to show stability through the process of procreation and over the span of generations. The correlation of an allele to disease, phenotype variation, or population distribution is teased out through complex statistical analysis.

While the percentages of variations that are present are small, the number of alleles is huge. So sample sizes used to find and track variations must also be huge. A lot of the genetic breakthroughs are functions, not so much of improved clinical chemistry, but of ever larger numbers of genes mapped and individuals sampled. Below is a paper from Nature that will give you some idea of the kinds of techniques used. (Don't be alarmed if you don't understand any of it. This information is so specialized only those in the field understand such papers. Personally, I just read 'em and think wow this is what happens in you stay awake during statistics and don't you just love your acronyms.)

Nature: Human Haplotype Map Project, Phase I

So, when you buy these tests, you're not just buying what markers on which genes, but you're buying computer algorithms used to tease out trends.

What I have never really understood is the urge to hunt ancestors among the base pairs (disease is another matter). I've never really bought into a blood connection to culture, except as your kin shape your culture. With epigenetics is pointing to ancestral environmental experience affecting the expression of inherited genes and neuropsychology to language shaping cognitive structures, we are far more "nurture" than "nature" I think. The only thing I find in DNA is an awesome testimony to unfathomable scope and complexity of the Creator's handiwork.

I only have 2 billion of those 'tide' thingies.

I cuz I'm JD.

[Josiah]

The science of it was explained very well by Olchemist! As somebody that does research on families it is one of those questions that comes up! From what I have read about it and to attempt to use as a substitute for plain ordinary paper research it is not the method I would choose! Set aside the science of it and the reluctance of native groups to provide DNA, the tribes that we have today are not the same groups we had 200 years ago! I was listening to a story told during a giveaway and they recited the family tree going back to a raid around the 1840's and captive was brought back to the tribe and eventually adopted in this person was made into a full member and never left the tribe again and married and had children! Of which the present family are counted as fullbloods today! Now if we were to do an DNA and had the ability to separate all the races out what would we see? Was that ancestor actually of one race or were they also intermarried?? How far do we go back? 100. 300. 500?? What about tribes that split off and formed smaller ones such as the Omaha, Otoe, Kaw Kansa? Or those that have been married together like the CNA or the Confederated tribes?? Ugh what a mess!!!

[Niigig]

I took ancestry test and while it did tell me I was native, it didn't tell me tribes.

[milehighsalute]

different companies.....hell even different tests by same companies give different results everytime thus rendering the dna tests insufficient

ask anyone who has taken more than one dna test

but i hear they are on the way of improving

[wyo_rose]

Yes, I saw the HORROR STORY of that black teenager that was convicted of rape on DNA evidence that was WRONG. That's sure the flip side of a lot of prisoners being released lately based on DNA testing that wasn't available back in the day.

I was just interested in getting these tests to see what they would say, and take it with a grain of salt.

Too bad one of these companies don't seem interested in preserving distinct tribal DNA. And I don't know which one would be trustworthy - lost faith in Nat Geo after seeing their "family tree" show on Dish, with them dismissing early Native Americans as just having stumbled across Beringia not realizing what they were doing, and leaning heavily on the outdated Clovis theory.

But like Josiah says, there was much intermarriage between tribes. My GGGgrandmother (all through the maternal lines) that I'm interested in finding out mtDNA info on, was mixed. My grandma had info that she was 1/4 Blackfoot 1/4 Sioux 1/4 Scotch 1/4 Irish. On the NDN census from back in the day, she's listed as 1/2 Shoshone, but I know that's not right because she moved here from Montana and was born in Canada. I'm assuming her mother was Blackfoot/Sioux, but I could be wrong as her maiden name was Leboeuf. If her mother was Scotch/Irish then my tribal mtDNA goes POOF!

Even her husband, my GGGgrandfather said he had the blood of 7 nations. Flathead, Iroquois and French are what we know nowadays, but maybe he was referring to the 5 Nation Iroquois Confederacy (now 6 Nations). Or maybe he really was part Shoshone too, as some have said, along with 2-3 other tribes. The Flathead consist of three (or more) confederated tribes themselves - Bitterroot Salish, Kootenai, and Pen D'Oreille.

The world may never know.

Well....Ancestry.com's test is $99. 23andMe and Family DNA are both $199 (Family finder from Fam DNA is $99).

As soon as I can find a $500 sponsor, I'll be taking all three. :)

At the very least, maybe they will show if my Dad was really 1/2 Danish 1/2 German, because all the ancestry.com stuff is pointing to only Germany.

I'll be trading in my wooden shoes for lederhosen. :

[wyo_rose]

After re-reading the article linked above, and trying to digest this all, I think I'm interested in finding my
mtDNA haplogroup.

Here's another Nature article (LUV Nature) about Kennewick Man's DNA. Thank goodness they could finally get a good test that shows he's Native and not European or Ainu.
The ancestry and affiliations of Kennewick Man : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

[Joe's Dad]

Yes, I saw the HORROR STORY of that black teenager that was convicted of rape on DNA evidence that was WRONG. That's sure the flip side of a lot of prisoners being released lately based on DNA testing that wasn't available back in the day.

I was just interested in getting these tests to see what they would say, and take it with a grain of salt.

Too bad one of these companies don't seem interested in preserving distinct tribal DNA. And I don't know which one would be trustworthy - lost faith in Nat Geo after seeing their "family tree" show on Dish, with them dismissing early Native Americans as just having stumbled across Beringia not realizing what they were doing, and leaning heavily on the outdated Clovis theory.

But like Josiah says, there was much intermarriage between tribes. My GGGgrandmother (all through the maternal lines) that I'm interested in finding out mtDNA info on, was mixed. My grandma had info that she was 1/4 Blackfoot 1/4 Sioux 1/4 Scotch 1/4 Irish. On the NDN census from back in the day, she's listed as 1/2 Shoshone, but I know that's not right because she moved here from Montana and was born in Canada. I'm assuming her mother was Blackfoot/Sioux, but I could be wrong as her maiden name was Leboeuf. If her mother was Scotch/Irish then my tribal mtDNA goes POOF!

Even her husband, my GGGgrandfather said he had the blood of 7 nations. Flathead, Iroquois and French are what we know nowadays, but maybe he was referring to the 5 Nation Iroquois Confederacy (now 6 Nations). Or maybe he really was part Shoshone too, as some have said, along with 2-3 other tribes. The Flathead consist of three (or more) confederated tribes themselves - Bitterroot Salish, Kootenai, and Pen D'Oreille.

The world may never know.

Well....Ancestry.com's test is $99. 23andMe and Family DNA are both $199 (Family finder from Fam DNA is $99).

As soon as I can find a $500 sponsor, I'll be taking all three. :)

At the very least, maybe they will show if my Dad was really 1/2 Danish 1/2 German, because all the ancestry.com stuff is pointing to only Germany.

I'll be trading in my wooden shoes for lederhosen. :

Yeah, but why do you look like a rezzed out NDN?

[annie_griffin]

Greetings All,
I have heard that DNA Tribes? Genetic Ancestry Analysis - Home Page
has a more specific and diverse database. I tested with 23 and me.
I found it interesting but lacking somewhat.
It states regions but not so much specific culture groups .

So I am looking forward to trying out dnatribes after I win the lottery lol.

Identity is complex.
My own family on both sides has folklore of NDN ancestry. I have found several Ancesters who are listed as NDN.
Complicating this notion of identity is the fact that my cousins are half Cherokee
(Their Father) and I was partly raised with them.
So between my Grandmother saying your Cherokee and my cousins being Cherokee well
I figured I was Cherokee .
Looking white I just gave up mentioning that at all in my reg life. I am doing my best to
learn good ways of life from all the directions.
And I am thankful to the people who have taken the time to share with me.

[wyo_rose]

Yeah, but why do you look like a rezzed out NDN?

OMG!

Is that cuz of my "stands with a fist" hair? Or my commod bod?


Or my sing/song broken eeengleesh?

[Joe's Dad]

OMG!

Is that cuz of my "stands with a fist" hair? Or my commod bod?


Or my sing/song broken eeengleesh?

^^^^ I met this lady once at a powwow and she is beautiful and has a great sense of humor. If you see me picking on her, it's because...well...it's because I'm JD!

This is me---->