Hip Hop & Pow Wows Collide?

[anishtradish]

I said even most the women here (ojibwe) haven't even been through the right ceremonies, thats why I said I doubt many non-Ojibs been through the ceremonies, because not even many Ojibs have anymore.

but to those girls dancing, they probably don't see their dresses as sacred, therefor they didn't do anything wrong. Just because it's a jingle dress does not automatically make it a sacred healing dress. The ceremonies make it sacred, not just the physical dress itself. To actually be a real sacred healing dress, theres certain rituals and ceremonies, plus they have to be plain, and of one of the four original colors. The dress that woman was wearing in that video obviously was a contemporary style dress, so I highly doubt she has actually used it for any healing ceremonies. A object might be considered sacred to a person in their own beliefs, but the person with that dress has to make that choice. I m sure if that woman actually used her dress for ceremonies, I doubt she would have used it for that video, so you can pretty much assume her dress isn't sacred.

they were just having some fun in that video. People forget humor and fun is one of our traditional qualities. Switch dances and such, come from actual societies and ceremonies where people did try to have fun and make people laugh. Just because a guy puts on a jingle dress for a switch dance, does not mean he is disrespecting anyone, because it's just a dress when a guy wears it, like I said before, a jingle dress is only sacred when it is actually used in ceremony and the person wearing it knows all of those things.

besides, most jingle dresses actually used in ceremony as healing dresses, aren't even used at powwows, especially for contest dancing, they are reserved for ceremonies. A powwow really isn't the place to hold sacred ceremonies.

[7pointbull]

"All in good fun". What does this all look like in the eyes of the non-native? It's like when they say native mascots are "all in good fun". I think even though it is "all in good fun", it takes away a little bit at a time. Ever chipping away at our culture. Make us REALLY like those mascots and such. At least in the world outside the pow-wow bubble.

[Kaina1128]

they were just having some fun in that video. People forget humor and fun is one of our traditional qualities. Switch dances and such, come from actual societies and ceremonies where people did try to have fun and make people laugh. Just because a guy puts on a jingle dress for a switch dance, does not mean he is disrespecting anyone, because it's just a dress when a guy wears it, like I said before, a jingle dress is only sacred when it is actually used in ceremony and the person wearing it knows all of those things.

just having fun doesn't mean you should forget to be humble and modest. switch dancing and clowns are rooted in tradition, the activities in this video are not. not to mention, that type of behavior should not take place on grounds blessed for powwow dancing or by people who use and wear sacred eagle feathers

[WhoMe]

"Ten years from now, we will have a lot less culture than we do today."


WhoMe

[anishtradish]

Ten years from now, we will have a lot less culture than we do today.


WhoMe

I believe culture doesn't really die out, it just adapts and changes. Even if we loose our languages and religions and ceremonies and stuff, we still have a culture of some sort, just not as 'traditional' as it was at one time.


I mean back to jingle for example, jingle dresses are supposed to only be one color, of the 4 original colors, and the women could not wear leggings, or use any type of fan, in the Ojibwe tradition and a lot of the great lakes area tribes, a woman couldn't even have an eagle fan period, because a woman was considered too powerful to use eagle feathers.

But look at any powwow today, and look at the jingle dresses. There all different colors, fancy, have all sorts of designs and patterns, beaded leggings, and most of them carry fans. Now would you say that those people lost parts of their culture, because they don't stick to those old original teachings?

you cant stop culture from changing. I mean our ways today are different from the ways lets say 50 years ago, and the ways from 50 years ago were different from the ways 150 years ago. Just like language changes, culture does as well. Especially now that we have giant powwows that people come from different tribes and over the years things just mix and change. I mean like we have people out west dancing jingle, we have people out east chicken dancing.... things just mix, and even the mainstream American culture mixes in with our powwows like how people sometimes do mix modern dance moves into their powwow style. I mean look at the bright florescent colors people use and the fancy cut glass beads. Now if someone wanted to be 100% 'traditional' they wouldn't use things like glass beads, and metal bells and velvet and satin and things that we didn't have before white people came here, because it's not "traditional' lol.


so my question to everyone else is ... how long does it take for something new that gets introduced into a culture, to end up becoming what someone would consider 'traditional'?

just something to think about.

[Kaina1128]

I believe culture doesn't really die out, it just adapts and changes. Even if we loose our languages and religions and ceremonies and stuff, we still have a culture of some sort, just not as 'traditional' as it was at one time.


I mean back to jingle for example, jingle dresses are supposed to only be one color, of the 4 original colors, and the women could not wear leggings, or use any type of fan, in the Ojibwe tradition and a lot of the great lakes area tribes, a woman couldn't even have an eagle fan period, because a woman was considered too powerful to use eagle feathers.

But look at any powwow today, and look at the jingle dresses. There all different colors, fancy, have all sorts of designs and patterns, beaded leggings, and most of them carry fans. Now would you say that those people lost parts of their culture, because they don't stick to those old original teachings?

you cant stop culture from changing. I mean our ways today are different from the ways lets say 50 years ago, and the ways from 50 years ago were different from the ways 150 years ago. Just like language changes, culture does as well. Especially now that we have giant powwows that people come from different tribes and over the years things just mix and change. I mean like we have people out west dancing jingle, we have people out east chicken dancing.... things just mix, and even the mainstream American culture mixes in with our powwows like how people sometimes do mix modern dance moves into their powwow style. I mean look at the bright florescent colors people use and the fancy cut glass beads. Now if someone wanted to be 100% 'traditional' they wouldn't use things like glass beads, and metal bells and velvet and satin and things that we didn't have before white people came here, because it's not "traditional' lol.


so my question to everyone else is ... how long does it take for something new that gets introduced into a culture, to end up becoming what someone would consider 'traditional'?

just something to think about.

back in the day, woodlands tradish dancers did not wear bustles

[Kaina1128]

everyone believes that jingle dress dancers added ornamentation, appliqué, and bead work to their dresses to increase chances of winning at powwow competitions. women in many nations have been doing that to their dresses for centuries. now things are brighter and more elaborate because we have greater access to different materials.



even with this ornamentation, the traditions of the dress are to be honored and women who wear them should always carry themselves in a good way when wearing it.

[anishtradish]

back in the day, woodlands tradish dancers did not wear bustles

I know we didn't use big bustles, but we did have some bustles, they were small loose hang bustles. Big style bustles came from down south. But to say we didn't wear bustles is false, because some did, they just were not like full wing bustles we use now.

I never said I was 100% 'traditional'. If I thought I was, I wouldn't use glass beads, or velvet, large bustles, bells, metal beads, angora fur, sewing threads, fabrics, .... even safety pins and duct tape.

[pow-wow person]

reaction reply

now im gonna have to strongly disagree with you. what these girls are doing is wrong, now i also dont know much about jingle or fancy shaw dancing, but i do know they are very sacred things. if they wanna go out and dance like that, thats fine, just dont do it in dance cloths, they are sacred things and should be used for the sacred dances they are intended for. if they want to dance like that, they should do it in their street clothes, i dont think anyone would have any problem with that.

Seems to me there are an awful lot of Cherokees who are 1/500th degree. But that is another topic..here I believe powwows are an opportunity to enjoy life native style and doing that by dancing has always been a good idea to me. It started as a way of holding on to our way of life during a time of suppression of native american ways by the government. But, I didn't like the hip hop stuff it didn't show me any kind of style or was anything about native just the same ol' stuff off the street.

[ballin_n_shawlin]

my two sense worth.... I was taught that you carry yourself PROPERLY when you are in your respected dance regalia and at a powwow.
NO MATTER WHAT STYLE OF DANCER YOU WERE!!!
there was a certain way you acted and don't act.... i saw this video and couldn't believe it.!!! it was tasteless and i was embarrassed for those 2 girls.. especially for it 2 be spread around on the internet like that!! how embarrassing for us as native people!

ok... now i hear people saying that switch dancers do worse... which is probably true! but thats' the point of switch dancing! (contrary/clown/heyoka) you switch outfits.. and make fun and take it to the extremes... some even consider the contrary/heyoka dances a type of "ceremony" for healing. And when things do get out of hand (which they have) the elders speak up and let the AD know... and he lets the dancers know to tame it down a bit!!

~n just side not... my great grandma said they should have had a walmart when she was little... it doesn't mean its less traditional...or modernized.... just easier access to more choices

[Ndn8tive]

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[tomdancingotter]

[QUOTE=dancingfancy;855942]Check out this article: -Hip Hop & Pow Wows Collide -


Santa Fe – Early this year a video of two unidentified young females dancing at an outdoor pow-wow in their regalia, hip-hop style, was circulated among Native Americans all over the nation. Since then, their dancing has been the center of controversy among pow-wow goers.


Hip hop vs Powwow? It`s a chance for us to show our children that we are open to hear them and to see them.
Is that hip hop thing a development from the " mighty mouse" songs or the 49er - (One of the questions I would ask for)

When the kids during the breaks show these things, maybe it`s our job to go to them and show them, how important their regalia is and ask for ideas to protect and respect their regalia.
To teach someone means also to learn all the time.
With respect.

[shadowoman]

i SHE WAS BEING DISRESPECTFUL JINGLE DRESS IS A PRAYER IF SHE WANTED TO DANCE IN THIS MANOR SHE SHE HAVE PUT ON STREET CLOTHES--BUT I HAVE SEEN SWITCH DANCE IN JINGLE TOO

[tomdancingotter]

i SHE WAS BEING DISRESPECTFUL JINGLE DRESS IS A PRAYER IF SHE WANTED TO DANCE IN THIS MANOR SHE SHE HAVE PUT ON STREET CLOTHES--BUT I HAVE SEEN SWITCH DANCE IN JINGLE TOO

That`s one idea, to tell them that they have to put on street clothes - and show them how important a jingle dress is.
With respect

[Josiah]

[QUOTE=tomdancingotter;1259547]

Check out this article: -Hip Hop & Pow Wows Collide -


Santa Fe – Early this year a video of two unidentified young females dancing at an outdoor pow-wow in their regalia, hip-hop style, was circulated among Native Americans all over the nation. Since then, their dancing has been the center of controversy among pow-wow goers.


Hip hop vs Powwow? It`s a chance for us to show our children that we are open to hear them and to see them.
Is that hip hop thing a development from the " mighty mouse" songs or the 49er - (One of the questions I would ask for)

When the kids during the breaks show these things, maybe it`s our job to go to them and show them, how important their regalia is and ask for ideas to protect and respect their regalia.
To teach someone means also to learn all the time.
With respect.

This reminds me of a story
I was at a Powwow in Tulsa late last year and during supper break they had a native hiphop group singing
Lots of kids and young adults were gathered around listening
There was this young girl who was dressed in her ndn clothes got up on stage with them and was showing some dance moves when her mother walked up and motioned for her to get down off that stage
Later on she apoligized for disrepecting her elders
and that she should have taken off her dance clothes first...

This Parent of the girl felt that she should not be dancing in that way in them clothes that they should be shown respect