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Raleigh Newspaper Reports Lumbee Recognition Could Mean Casinos

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  • Raleigh Newspaper Reports Lumbee Recognition Could Mean Casinos

    http://www.newsobserver.com/front/di...-3192695c.html

    Check out the news link.
    Fish eyed fool!

  • #2
    Hey thanks for publishing that article - good reading - interesting.
    Everything is gonna be alright!

    Be blessed - got love???

    This b me.....

    www.myspace.com/akayo

    Comment


    • #3
      The report states how congressional members are demanding that the Lumbee "promise not to build a casino" in exchange for recognition... What a crock! It's their "sovereign" land right?! Why is there any question, or need for "promises"? They could build a toxic waste dump there if that's what they want to do for cripes sake (although I don't think they'd want to do that of course). It's their land, period.

      It should merely be a question of if the tribes have adequate documentation that they are a "tribe" as designated via BIA definitions. Since it's already been determined that they DO fulfill the requirements, RECOGNIZE THEM.

      Perhaps somebody should just "promise" there will be no casino... Then as soon as the legislation is passed, BAM, build one. Call it an "economic development center", or an "arcade", or a "shopping mall", and load it up with "video games", and a few "stores" that sell cigarettes and other NDN made items (tax free of course, but proceeds directly to tribal income). Those aren't illegal right? That's essentially how things went against native people for centuries now, why not reverse the tables?

      Tom

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Singerdad,

        I don't really have a horse in this race, except the cause of advancing native rights above the pathetic state they are now. I think almost everybody here now will agree that things need to change.

        My comment about the gaming legislation regards that you can bet that if legislators have gone so far at to ask a question, or propose a "promise" of no gaming, they're considering it as a deciding factor in their deliberations. If that's true, I think it's wrong, straight out. They may not SAY that's one of their conditions, but it will be.

        AFAIK, once a tribe is "recognized" they can petition BIA that any land within their "historical range" be placed into trust with the BIA, as tribal land. Although there is none now, that's not to say that there will NOT be any sometime soon. I'd expect that to be the next sticking point in the process.

        And as for gaming, if they have their own land, and they have recognition, their land shold be considered as a sovereign territory, thereby abrogating them from complying with state law if it prohibits gaming... I know it's not that simple, but if the tribe is a sovereign state, with their own land and government, how exactly should the state impose their laws upon another independent government state? Who's to say that CAN'T have gaming?

        I know these issues usually put tribes at odds with each other because it stands to dilute to minimal resources that there are now, either gaming incomes or health/education/housing funds. Not to mention the historical animosity that exists between some tribes. Of course we can expect that there will always be these disagreements, but I still think that the overall expansion of recognition and sovereignty rights benefits ALL NATIVES. That's why I'd like to see recognition affirmed.

        Tom

        Comment


        • #5
          singerdad,
          are those the only important reasons for us to become federally recognized?

          how about:
          1pride/dignity
          2medical benefits for those who have none
          3jobs/housing for robesonians, 1 of the state's poorest counties with a 9% unemployment rate

          sure, even these benefits aren't the best (by today's standards of living), but , there's more hope with them than w/o them

          **as for me, the jury's still out on whether we should have a casino(if that were to become a possibility), i tend to be against it, but, i'll have to read more about the pros/cons, effects on families/standards of living, etc..... and get back to you on that one
          but, just b/c our tribal council & other "politikers" want it doesn't mean that it will happen, just b/c the media swings it one way doesn't mean that it's the whole truth & nothing but the truth--when it comes down to the wire, we, the people, will decide what we want, even if that means voting the entire tribal council out--BTW....all lumbees are not for casinos--i think the general consensus is to build our people up..socially, socio-economically, and culturally---& if it won't bring positive change to ours and the surrounding communities then we don't want it--we have enough problems as it is, there's no room for any more
          Last edited by geronimo; 05-25-2004, 05:55 PM.
          No one can make you feel inferior w/o your consent-Eleanor Roosevelt

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by geronimo
            singerdad,
            are those the only important reasons for us to become federally recognized?

            [**as for me, the jury's still out on whether we should have a casino(if that were to become a possibility), i tend to be against it, but, i'll have to read more about the pros/cons, effects on families/standards of living, etc..... and get back to you on that one
            but, just b/c our tribal council & other "politikers" want it doesn't mean that it will happen, just b/c the media swings it one way doesn't mean that it's the whole truth & nothing but the truth--when it comes down to the wire, we, the people, will decide what we want, even if that means voting the entire tribal council out--BTW....all lumbees are not for casinos--i think the general consensus is to build our people up..socially, socio-economically, and culturally---& if it won't bring positive change to ours and the surrounding communities then we don't want it--we have enough problems as it is, there's no room for any more
            Don't count on public opposition to keep it out. EBCI started casino gaming despite public outcry for a referendum vote. Several churches, which have as strong an influence as I assume they do in Robeson County, also came out against it. But it came here anyway. To put it bluntly, you can't trust politicians to do anything other than serve their own selfish interests.

            But without trust land, free from state criminal jurisdiction, the Lumbee couldn't get a casino even if they wanted one.

            Should casinos come to Robeson County, don't expect it to solve the poverty problem either. The EBCI's casino hasn't ended it in Graham County, where many of us live. It too is one of the state's poorest, despite gaming.
            Fish eyed fool!

            Comment


            • #7
              HERE'S WHAT ANOTHER OF YOUR TRIBAL MEMBERS THAT LIVE AROUND HERE THINKS

              so we are to assume that you can bash our chief but we cannot ask questions about the Lumbees and the origins and their history and their language that ARVIS says he speaks - why is he not out helping the rest of the lumbees learn their native language instead of over here teaching at a public school
              there has never been a question about what kind of indian the cherokee or creek or seminole or chicksaw or seneca or tuscarora or shawnee or anyone else they have always been that tribe and never changed that is why many here feel the lumbees need to make up their minds as to where they are from (croatan - or pee dee - or cheraw cause they are all from different areas and have completely different historys) you say on your website you are descended from croatan you are who the "LOST COLONY" merged with well they are from the coast not pembroke so if croatan then pembroke is not your ancestral homeland but if your cheraw then what happened - if been so colonialized longer than any other tribe why is your history not the one written down the longest of times you were growing crops, building cabins..... why didn't you write like -most europeans, they write everything down sorry rattling but here's arvis thought for today....

              Lumbee deserve same recognition as Cherokee
              May 26, 2004 12:01 a.m.
              I am writing in regard to Eastern Band of Cherokee Chief Michell Hicks' April testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on H.R. 898 Lumbee federal recognition.
              Chief Hicks opposes legislative Lumbee federal recognition even though the Eastern Band obtained recognition through the congressional route. The 1956 Lumbee Act recognized our tribe as Lumbee but denied us federal benefits. Representative Taylor and EBCI's bill would strike the 1956 Act and require us to go through the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) process for recognition. First, the BIA process is flawed. The GAO states that this process could take 15 years and an untold number of years to fix/streamline. The Lumbee have attempted to obtain federal recognition for over 110 years. Each time the BIA has visited Lumbee land over the years (three-plus), this agency has concluded that we are a legitimate tribe. We Lumbee are a Siouan people, which (N.C. explorer and historian) John Lawson called the "Piedmont tribes" because the culture/language were so similar. We have strong traditional communities and vital Native tradition in healing. (I feel) the Eastern Band opposes us because of casino and federal funding worries. Please support full federal recognition of the Lumbee.

              Arvis Boughman,

              Dillsboro


              http://www.citizen-times.com/letters.shtml
              Last edited by Okwataga; 05-26-2004, 11:36 AM.
              Well will wonders never cease.....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CYSA
                HERE'S WHAT ANOTHER OF YOUR TRIBAL MEMBERS THAT LIVE AROUND HERE THINKS

                so we are to assume that you can bash our chief but we cannot ask questions about the Lumbees and the origins and their history and their language that ARVIS says he speaks - why is he not out helping the rest of the lumbees learn their native language instead of over here teaching at a public school
                there has never been a question about what kind of indian the cherokee or creek or seminole or chicksaw or seneca or tuscarora or shawnee or anyone else they have always been that tribe and never changed that is why many here feel the lumbees need to make up their minds as to where they are from (croatan - or pee dee - or cheraw cause they are all from different areas and have completely different historys) you say on your website you are descended from croatan you are who the "LOST COLONY" merged with well they are from the coast not pembroke so if croatan then pembroke is not your ancestral homeland but if your cheraw then what happened - if been so colonialized longer than any other tribe why is your history not the one written down the longest of times you were growing crops, building cabins..... why didn't you write like -most europeans, they write everything down sorry rattling but here's arvis thought for today....
                This is the same guy who writes letters all over the place claiming that the Cherokee stomp dance is Lumbee and writes a book claiming Cherokee medicine as Lumbee and then goes around asking "Why can't we be friends?"

                Tribes tend not to look favorably upon appropriation of their culture. Hopefully Arvis is not representative of the Lumbee as a whole. After all, Ed Taylor was hardly representative of the EBCI.
                Fish eyed fool!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Singerdad
                  This is from the Senate bill itself:

                  SEC. 6. JURISDICTION.

                  `(a) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subsection (b), the State shall exercise jurisdiction over all criminal offenses that are committed on, and all civil actions that arise on, land located in the State that is owned by, or held in trust by the United States for the benefit of, the Tribe or any member of the Tribe.


                  They don't have sovereignty now, and they won't have it even if this passes. That's why I'm confused. As for the trust land issue, I agree that they could have it done, but as of now they aren't asking for any land to be put into trust. This actually was an issue the Lumbees debated about prior to this bill going to Congress. There was a movement within their group to make the entire state of North Carolina their territory :) Kinda hard to take an entire state into trust huh?
                  Singerdad! You know this exact point has allready been addressed! Sometimes you ask very good questions and make good points, but this is just nit pickin man!

                  There are provisions in the bill to allow land to be taken into trust and jurisdiction to be turned over to the tribe over time! I've said it before and I'll say it again, you can't just take away the states authority and give it to a tribe who is not equipped (or been allowed to equip itself) to handle that jurisdiction! It would cause anarchy!

                  Also! Don't confuse the intentions the tribe had when claiming the whole state! We did not claim the whole state as our traditional territory in the literal since, that was merely an attempt to make all tribal members living in the state (as ther are quite a few now living outside our traditional territory) elligible for tribal programs and services.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    singerdad,
                    personally, i think some insurance is better than no insurance, some medical care better than none--'nuff said-when a community is healthier (even if the care's not superior quality), the benefits are endless, across the board--do you think those in the 9% unemployment rate bracket have any medical or dental insurance?? i highly doubt that

                    when more jobs are created, people can eventually have a house they can pay for and individuals/families can become self-sufficient, not piggyback off HUD

                    here's my reasoning....i do have pride & dignity, but you would have to imagine it's hard hearing this negativity 24/7--as any minority could tell you, it's not always easy--and then to have indian people break you down.......and you know what? maybe a lot don't have that pride....maybe they weren't raised to believe in what they are, but to just let everyone else tell them what they are.......i think it could right a lot of wrongs

                    economic development???? education......it's the only way.........it's what creates jobs, changes communities.(companies/industries look @ these things when deciding to move into an area...resources/available workforce) schools/training..education 360 degrees...meet the heirarchy of needs for an individual---who knows?? maybe indian doctors would be in our hospitals which could translate to better care for our people..there are tons of lum doctors out there
                    Last edited by geronimo; 05-26-2004, 10:27 PM.
                    No one can make you feel inferior w/o your consent-Eleanor Roosevelt

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      geronimo, lumberdancer -- you guys are wasting you time and energy with this.

                      There will always be a handful of Cherokees that will oppose anything to do with the Lumbee. Nothing you say will ever convince them that we are legitimate or deserving of recognition.

                      Ever notice that the threads started on this board that paint the Lumbee in a negitave or not so flattering light are always started by a Cherokee. Most of those articles are distributed to the AP and can be accessed by any Indian in the country with a computer and a little common sense, but the only one's that will bother posting it on here are the Cherokees.

                      We don't have to explain ourselves to anyone on this board. We've made our case and defended our position on this issue to the only people we need to, Congress. It's up to Congress to decide what the outcome will be. Which ever way it falls we will deal with it the same way we have dealt with everything else we have had to face.

                      As long as we know who we are and where we come from that's all that really matters. If we get recognition, great. If we don't, then we will still be the same people we have always been. Recognition will not change the way you feel in your heart, nor will it change the minds of those who oppose our being recognized. You can bet that people like Singerdad, Badmutha, Fancy Star, CYSA and everyone else that thinks we don't deserve recognition will continue to believe that regardless of wheter we gain recgntion or not.

                      As for Arvis Boughman, believe me when I say that not everyone puts their full stock in everything he says. He does not speak for all the people.

                      I usually don't respond to these threads, but when I see people beating their heads against a brick wall, sometimes I feel like I should do something.
                      Becky G.

                      www.myspace/BeckyGoins

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        singerdad,
                        right now..................comtech is in the development process in robeson county....huge industrial/technological/research park// ....i don't know other specific plans/i just don't know those ins and outs @ this time......but 4 anyone who needs to know right now, email one of our tribal council members or our chairman...but i do know this.........it all falls back/hinges on education
                        +i don't claim to be an expert on all things lumbee, i'm just sharing my personal knowledge & what i'm privy to--as long as others remain open & objective it's all good


                        mslum91,
                        i gotcha on all accounts:)
                        No one can make you feel inferior w/o your consent-Eleanor Roosevelt

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          All I was saying is that you can't convince someone of something they aren't interested in or open to believing, in the first place. Questions have been asked and answers to those questions have been given and it has not ever, nor will it ever be enough to convince some people that the Lumbee are a legitimate tribe, with a legitimate and documented history and rightfully deserve to be recognized.

                          Cherokee, Oglala, pink with purple polka dots -- it doesn't matter. As long as you have closed your mind to the idea that Lumbees are who we say we are and deserve the same recognition as other tribes, then nothing anyone can say will change your mind.

                          Now, we do have some people that try too hard to explain things and tend to confuse people even further, rather than clear things up. They sometimes confuse the hell out me and I know what they're trying to say.

                          Asking questions is a wonderful way to learn about other people. But if you close your mind to the answers before you even ask the questions, then what's the point of asking to begin with?

                          Just my two cents.
                          Becky G.

                          www.myspace/BeckyGoins

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ms. Lum

                            Take up your beef with the Raleigh News & Observer. Frankly I could care less if a casino opens up in Robeson County. San Diego has several Indian casinos nearby, usually within 20 miles of each other, not the more than 300 it is from Cherokee to Lumberton, and they all do well.

                            If I have any point to starting this thread, it's that the media are continuing to push a point about Lumbee recognition that both the Lumbee and the Cherokee say isn't an issue.

                            Oh the negative news coverage. Wipe my tears, and get used to it.
                            Fish eyed fool!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jurisdiciton in Indian Country

                              Originally posted by Singerdad
                              This is from the Senate bill itself:

                              SEC. 6. JURISDICTION.

                              `(a) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subsection (b), the State shall exercise jurisdiction over all criminal offenses that are committed on, and all civil actions that arise on, land located in the State that is owned by, or held in trust by the United States for the benefit of, the Tribe or any member of the Tribe.


                              They don't have sovereignty now, and they won't have it even if this passes. That's why I'm confused. As for the trust land issue, I agree that they could have it done, but as of now they aren't asking for any land to be put into trust. This actually was an issue the Lumbees debated about prior to this bill going to Congress. There was a movement within their group to make the entire state of North Carolina their territory :) Kinda hard to take an entire state into trust huh?
                              If you ever study indain law, one thing you will discover is that jurisdicition is a ridculous mess in Indian Country.


                              Its important to knwo that there are several states in the US who exercises full criminal jurisidiction over reservation in the state, this situtaiton was created by PL 280. California is one of those states, where we all learned there are so many casinos. The federal government is in control of most criminal jurisdiciton in Indian country that is not covered by PL 280. The Major Crimes act virutally removed any real authority the tribes have over crimes and since tribes are limited in the sentencing they can impose adn fines they can levy, their soverignty is limited. This is universal. So the Lumbee would not be much different in this respect than various other tribes. There are many ways to reassume this jurisdiction from the state once tribes have the capability to enforce laws...which is always an option. IE the need to set up tribal courts, train officers etc. We're fortunate that many of these resource will not be hard to set up if there was ever a need or decision to b/c we already have many qualified people. 100 yrs. ago most tribes were in the same position the Lumbee will be in, their situation improved why can't the lumbee situation?



                              Civil jurisidicition varies from resrvation to reservation across the US. It is generally within the domain of the tribe to control civil jurisdiciton. There are always limits tot hat, includign federal limits. It is a bit unusal to have the state control civil jurisdiciton but not unheard of see....Iowa and Texas, btoh places where the states has some civil authority.

                              There is rarely an instance where the tribe has jurisdiciton over non-Indians at all eitehr criminal or civil. With so many non-Indians living in Lumbee country, virtually every issue that arises will be "inter-racial". So the state or the feds would have jurisdiciton anyway....

                              Like I said a complicated topic no one understands it and Cogress is certainly not trying to. No wonder their is such a simplistic declaration in a bill that has failed so many times... If my post were included in the bill, would it pass....That's a guranteed no...

                              Comment

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