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Raleigh Newspaper Reports Lumbee Recognition Could Mean Casinos

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  • alumbo
    replied
    Arvis Boughman's reply

    I know this post is almost 2 years old, but I thought I would speak for myself. I spoke w/ Ms. Lum 91 and her comment concerning everyone not putting full stock in everything I say. In a personal conversation, she stated that she was referring to the belief that I claim to speak the Lumbee language. At no time have I ever said I could speak our historical language. Do I know a few words, can I sing Amazing Grace in it? The answer is yes. But, I don't claim to be a speaker of our language. I would love to see it come back though As for the book HERBAL REMEDIES OF THE LUMBEE INDIANS, I don't think Badmutha ever read it, but if he/she did, it would be evident that it is a book on Lumbee herbal remedies with some notations about how other Native peoples used the same herb. In just about every entry, I make a note of how Lumbee Native healers used specific plants to treat disease. Lumbee healers used over one dozen herbs that no other Native people had found a use for. In short, anyone who thinks this book is a Cherokee book masquering as a Lumbee manuscript, just hasn't read it. Furthermore, on the stomp dance, I talked with three Lumbee elders, Ray Littleturtle, Earl Carter, and Pete "Spotted Turtle" Clark, before I made this statement and they all confirmed that we did indeed stomp. I love the people of EBCI but the stomp dance or green corn was a dance that most southeastern people performed. It's not simply a Cherokee invention. So, I ask what did I say that you cannot put stock in?
    Last edited by alumbo; 11-27-2006, 03:08 PM.

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  • Badmutha
    replied
    Originally posted by MsLum91
    Thank you so very much. I could not have proven my point any better if I had spent all weekend searching this board for examples of such predjudicial attitudes. So predictable. Thanks for not letting me down.

    Now, on to the next issue. :)
    Don't get too self-righteous, Ms. Lum. That goes both ways.

    If my location had been somewhere other than Cherokee or Tahlequah or had a different tribal affiliation, I doubt this accusation would be hurled.

    Leave a comment:


  • MsLum91
    replied
    Originally posted by Badmutha
    Take up your beef with the Raleigh News & Observer. Frankly I could care less if a casino opens up in Robeson County. San Diego has several Indian casinos nearby, usually within 20 miles of each other, not the more than 300 it is from Cherokee to Lumberton, and they all do well.

    If I have any point to starting this thread, it's that the media are continuing to push a point about Lumbee recognition that both the Lumbee and the Cherokee say isn't an issue.

    Oh the negative news coverage. Wipe my tears, and get used to it.

    Thank you so very much. I could not have proven my point any better if I had spent all weekend searching this board for examples of such predjudicial attitudes. So predictable. Thanks for not letting me down.

    Now, on to the next issue. :)

    Leave a comment:


  • lumlady
    replied
    Geronimo, Lumbeedancer And Ms Lum91 I Would Like To Thank-you For All The Support You Have Gave To The Lumbee People I Know Explaining This Issue To Other Natives Is A Hard Job And I Have Tried My Self And I Have Learned That We Know Why We Would Like Full Recognition And That's All That Matters Cause Every Tribe Has There Own View Thanks Agian Later Cuz!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivypi
    replied
    Jurisdiciton in Indian Country

    Originally posted by Singerdad
    This is from the Senate bill itself:

    SEC. 6. JURISDICTION.

    `(a) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subsection (b), the State shall exercise jurisdiction over all criminal offenses that are committed on, and all civil actions that arise on, land located in the State that is owned by, or held in trust by the United States for the benefit of, the Tribe or any member of the Tribe.


    They don't have sovereignty now, and they won't have it even if this passes. That's why I'm confused. As for the trust land issue, I agree that they could have it done, but as of now they aren't asking for any land to be put into trust. This actually was an issue the Lumbees debated about prior to this bill going to Congress. There was a movement within their group to make the entire state of North Carolina their territory :) Kinda hard to take an entire state into trust huh?
    If you ever study indain law, one thing you will discover is that jurisdicition is a ridculous mess in Indian Country.


    Its important to knwo that there are several states in the US who exercises full criminal jurisidiction over reservation in the state, this situtaiton was created by PL 280. California is one of those states, where we all learned there are so many casinos. The federal government is in control of most criminal jurisdiciton in Indian country that is not covered by PL 280. The Major Crimes act virutally removed any real authority the tribes have over crimes and since tribes are limited in the sentencing they can impose adn fines they can levy, their soverignty is limited. This is universal. So the Lumbee would not be much different in this respect than various other tribes. There are many ways to reassume this jurisdiction from the state once tribes have the capability to enforce laws...which is always an option. IE the need to set up tribal courts, train officers etc. We're fortunate that many of these resource will not be hard to set up if there was ever a need or decision to b/c we already have many qualified people. 100 yrs. ago most tribes were in the same position the Lumbee will be in, their situation improved why can't the lumbee situation?



    Civil jurisidicition varies from resrvation to reservation across the US. It is generally within the domain of the tribe to control civil jurisdiciton. There are always limits tot hat, includign federal limits. It is a bit unusal to have the state control civil jurisdiciton but not unheard of see....Iowa and Texas, btoh places where the states has some civil authority.

    There is rarely an instance where the tribe has jurisdiciton over non-Indians at all eitehr criminal or civil. With so many non-Indians living in Lumbee country, virtually every issue that arises will be "inter-racial". So the state or the feds would have jurisdiciton anyway....

    Like I said a complicated topic no one understands it and Cogress is certainly not trying to. No wonder their is such a simplistic declaration in a bill that has failed so many times... If my post were included in the bill, would it pass....That's a guranteed no...

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  • Badmutha
    replied
    Ms. Lum

    Take up your beef with the Raleigh News & Observer. Frankly I could care less if a casino opens up in Robeson County. San Diego has several Indian casinos nearby, usually within 20 miles of each other, not the more than 300 it is from Cherokee to Lumberton, and they all do well.

    If I have any point to starting this thread, it's that the media are continuing to push a point about Lumbee recognition that both the Lumbee and the Cherokee say isn't an issue.

    Oh the negative news coverage. Wipe my tears, and get used to it.

    Leave a comment:


  • MsLum91
    replied
    All I was saying is that you can't convince someone of something they aren't interested in or open to believing, in the first place. Questions have been asked and answers to those questions have been given and it has not ever, nor will it ever be enough to convince some people that the Lumbee are a legitimate tribe, with a legitimate and documented history and rightfully deserve to be recognized.

    Cherokee, Oglala, pink with purple polka dots -- it doesn't matter. As long as you have closed your mind to the idea that Lumbees are who we say we are and deserve the same recognition as other tribes, then nothing anyone can say will change your mind.

    Now, we do have some people that try too hard to explain things and tend to confuse people even further, rather than clear things up. They sometimes confuse the hell out me and I know what they're trying to say.

    Asking questions is a wonderful way to learn about other people. But if you close your mind to the answers before you even ask the questions, then what's the point of asking to begin with?

    Just my two cents.

    Leave a comment:


  • geronimo
    replied
    singerdad,
    right now..................comtech is in the development process in robeson county....huge industrial/technological/research park// ....i don't know other specific plans/i just don't know those ins and outs @ this time......but 4 anyone who needs to know right now, email one of our tribal council members or our chairman...but i do know this.........it all falls back/hinges on education
    +i don't claim to be an expert on all things lumbee, i'm just sharing my personal knowledge & what i'm privy to--as long as others remain open & objective it's all good


    mslum91,
    i gotcha on all accounts:)

    Leave a comment:


  • MsLum91
    replied
    geronimo, lumberdancer -- you guys are wasting you time and energy with this.

    There will always be a handful of Cherokees that will oppose anything to do with the Lumbee. Nothing you say will ever convince them that we are legitimate or deserving of recognition.

    Ever notice that the threads started on this board that paint the Lumbee in a negitave or not so flattering light are always started by a Cherokee. Most of those articles are distributed to the AP and can be accessed by any Indian in the country with a computer and a little common sense, but the only one's that will bother posting it on here are the Cherokees.

    We don't have to explain ourselves to anyone on this board. We've made our case and defended our position on this issue to the only people we need to, Congress. It's up to Congress to decide what the outcome will be. Which ever way it falls we will deal with it the same way we have dealt with everything else we have had to face.

    As long as we know who we are and where we come from that's all that really matters. If we get recognition, great. If we don't, then we will still be the same people we have always been. Recognition will not change the way you feel in your heart, nor will it change the minds of those who oppose our being recognized. You can bet that people like Singerdad, Badmutha, Fancy Star, CYSA and everyone else that thinks we don't deserve recognition will continue to believe that regardless of wheter we gain recgntion or not.

    As for Arvis Boughman, believe me when I say that not everyone puts their full stock in everything he says. He does not speak for all the people.

    I usually don't respond to these threads, but when I see people beating their heads against a brick wall, sometimes I feel like I should do something.

    Leave a comment:


  • geronimo
    replied
    singerdad,
    personally, i think some insurance is better than no insurance, some medical care better than none--'nuff said-when a community is healthier (even if the care's not superior quality), the benefits are endless, across the board--do you think those in the 9% unemployment rate bracket have any medical or dental insurance?? i highly doubt that

    when more jobs are created, people can eventually have a house they can pay for and individuals/families can become self-sufficient, not piggyback off HUD

    here's my reasoning....i do have pride & dignity, but you would have to imagine it's hard hearing this negativity 24/7--as any minority could tell you, it's not always easy--and then to have indian people break you down.......and you know what? maybe a lot don't have that pride....maybe they weren't raised to believe in what they are, but to just let everyone else tell them what they are.......i think it could right a lot of wrongs

    economic development???? education......it's the only way.........it's what creates jobs, changes communities.(companies/industries look @ these things when deciding to move into an area...resources/available workforce) schools/training..education 360 degrees...meet the heirarchy of needs for an individual---who knows?? maybe indian doctors would be in our hospitals which could translate to better care for our people..there are tons of lum doctors out there
    Last edited by geronimo; 05-26-2004, 10:27 PM.

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  • lumbeedancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Singerdad
    This is from the Senate bill itself:

    SEC. 6. JURISDICTION.

    `(a) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subsection (b), the State shall exercise jurisdiction over all criminal offenses that are committed on, and all civil actions that arise on, land located in the State that is owned by, or held in trust by the United States for the benefit of, the Tribe or any member of the Tribe.


    They don't have sovereignty now, and they won't have it even if this passes. That's why I'm confused. As for the trust land issue, I agree that they could have it done, but as of now they aren't asking for any land to be put into trust. This actually was an issue the Lumbees debated about prior to this bill going to Congress. There was a movement within their group to make the entire state of North Carolina their territory :) Kinda hard to take an entire state into trust huh?
    Singerdad! You know this exact point has allready been addressed! Sometimes you ask very good questions and make good points, but this is just nit pickin man!

    There are provisions in the bill to allow land to be taken into trust and jurisdiction to be turned over to the tribe over time! I've said it before and I'll say it again, you can't just take away the states authority and give it to a tribe who is not equipped (or been allowed to equip itself) to handle that jurisdiction! It would cause anarchy!

    Also! Don't confuse the intentions the tribe had when claiming the whole state! We did not claim the whole state as our traditional territory in the literal since, that was merely an attempt to make all tribal members living in the state (as ther are quite a few now living outside our traditional territory) elligible for tribal programs and services.

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  • Badmutha
    replied
    Originally posted by CYSA
    HERE'S WHAT ANOTHER OF YOUR TRIBAL MEMBERS THAT LIVE AROUND HERE THINKS

    so we are to assume that you can bash our chief but we cannot ask questions about the Lumbees and the origins and their history and their language that ARVIS says he speaks - why is he not out helping the rest of the lumbees learn their native language instead of over here teaching at a public school
    there has never been a question about what kind of indian the cherokee or creek or seminole or chicksaw or seneca or tuscarora or shawnee or anyone else they have always been that tribe and never changed that is why many here feel the lumbees need to make up their minds as to where they are from (croatan - or pee dee - or cheraw cause they are all from different areas and have completely different historys) you say on your website you are descended from croatan you are who the "LOST COLONY" merged with well they are from the coast not pembroke so if croatan then pembroke is not your ancestral homeland but if your cheraw then what happened - if been so colonialized longer than any other tribe why is your history not the one written down the longest of times you were growing crops, building cabins..... why didn't you write like -most europeans, they write everything down sorry rattling but here's arvis thought for today....
    This is the same guy who writes letters all over the place claiming that the Cherokee stomp dance is Lumbee and writes a book claiming Cherokee medicine as Lumbee and then goes around asking "Why can't we be friends?"

    Tribes tend not to look favorably upon appropriation of their culture. Hopefully Arvis is not representative of the Lumbee as a whole. After all, Ed Taylor was hardly representative of the EBCI.

    Leave a comment:


  • Okwataga
    replied
    HERE'S WHAT ANOTHER OF YOUR TRIBAL MEMBERS THAT LIVE AROUND HERE THINKS

    so we are to assume that you can bash our chief but we cannot ask questions about the Lumbees and the origins and their history and their language that ARVIS says he speaks - why is he not out helping the rest of the lumbees learn their native language instead of over here teaching at a public school
    there has never been a question about what kind of indian the cherokee or creek or seminole or chicksaw or seneca or tuscarora or shawnee or anyone else they have always been that tribe and never changed that is why many here feel the lumbees need to make up their minds as to where they are from (croatan - or pee dee - or cheraw cause they are all from different areas and have completely different historys) you say on your website you are descended from croatan you are who the "LOST COLONY" merged with well they are from the coast not pembroke so if croatan then pembroke is not your ancestral homeland but if your cheraw then what happened - if been so colonialized longer than any other tribe why is your history not the one written down the longest of times you were growing crops, building cabins..... why didn't you write like -most europeans, they write everything down sorry rattling but here's arvis thought for today....

    Lumbee deserve same recognition as Cherokee
    May 26, 2004 12:01 a.m.
    I am writing in regard to Eastern Band of Cherokee Chief Michell Hicks' April testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on H.R. 898 Lumbee federal recognition.
    Chief Hicks opposes legislative Lumbee federal recognition even though the Eastern Band obtained recognition through the congressional route. The 1956 Lumbee Act recognized our tribe as Lumbee but denied us federal benefits. Representative Taylor and EBCI's bill would strike the 1956 Act and require us to go through the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) process for recognition. First, the BIA process is flawed. The GAO states that this process could take 15 years and an untold number of years to fix/streamline. The Lumbee have attempted to obtain federal recognition for over 110 years. Each time the BIA has visited Lumbee land over the years (three-plus), this agency has concluded that we are a legitimate tribe. We Lumbee are a Siouan people, which (N.C. explorer and historian) John Lawson called the "Piedmont tribes" because the culture/language were so similar. We have strong traditional communities and vital Native tradition in healing. (I feel) the Eastern Band opposes us because of casino and federal funding worries. Please support full federal recognition of the Lumbee.

    Arvis Boughman,

    Dillsboro


    http://www.citizen-times.com/letters.shtml
    Last edited by Okwataga; 05-26-2004, 11:36 AM.

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  • Badmutha
    replied
    Originally posted by geronimo
    singerdad,
    are those the only important reasons for us to become federally recognized?

    [**as for me, the jury's still out on whether we should have a casino(if that were to become a possibility), i tend to be against it, but, i'll have to read more about the pros/cons, effects on families/standards of living, etc..... and get back to you on that one
    but, just b/c our tribal council & other "politikers" want it doesn't mean that it will happen, just b/c the media swings it one way doesn't mean that it's the whole truth & nothing but the truth--when it comes down to the wire, we, the people, will decide what we want, even if that means voting the entire tribal council out--BTW....all lumbees are not for casinos--i think the general consensus is to build our people up..socially, socio-economically, and culturally---& if it won't bring positive change to ours and the surrounding communities then we don't want it--we have enough problems as it is, there's no room for any more
    Don't count on public opposition to keep it out. EBCI started casino gaming despite public outcry for a referendum vote. Several churches, which have as strong an influence as I assume they do in Robeson County, also came out against it. But it came here anyway. To put it bluntly, you can't trust politicians to do anything other than serve their own selfish interests.

    But without trust land, free from state criminal jurisdiction, the Lumbee couldn't get a casino even if they wanted one.

    Should casinos come to Robeson County, don't expect it to solve the poverty problem either. The EBCI's casino hasn't ended it in Graham County, where many of us live. It too is one of the state's poorest, despite gaming.

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  • geronimo
    replied
    singerdad,
    are those the only important reasons for us to become federally recognized?

    how about:
    1pride/dignity
    2medical benefits for those who have none
    3jobs/housing for robesonians, 1 of the state's poorest counties with a 9% unemployment rate

    sure, even these benefits aren't the best (by today's standards of living), but , there's more hope with them than w/o them

    **as for me, the jury's still out on whether we should have a casino(if that were to become a possibility), i tend to be against it, but, i'll have to read more about the pros/cons, effects on families/standards of living, etc..... and get back to you on that one
    but, just b/c our tribal council & other "politikers" want it doesn't mean that it will happen, just b/c the media swings it one way doesn't mean that it's the whole truth & nothing but the truth--when it comes down to the wire, we, the people, will decide what we want, even if that means voting the entire tribal council out--BTW....all lumbees are not for casinos--i think the general consensus is to build our people up..socially, socio-economically, and culturally---& if it won't bring positive change to ours and the surrounding communities then we don't want it--we have enough problems as it is, there's no room for any more
    Last edited by geronimo; 05-25-2004, 05:55 PM.

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