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  • #16
    badmutha,
    it just gets old when you start a post about "another bogus cherokee group" and then follow it with the statement...."maybe these clowns can get recognition too"---i think that's a little over the top, especially when you're all over the "lumbees/congress happenings" in various posts-it just comes across the wrong way---i think any of you would be frustrated at this point as well--i think it gets touchy on all sides, not just lumbees-it's obvious by reading all the posts--but i try to remain as level-headed as possible---we're all adults here......

    blackbear,
    i feel ya:)
    No one can make you feel inferior w/o your consent-Eleanor Roosevelt

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by CandaePrincess
      I really don't understand the concept of the Lumbee tribe. I was always told that they were not a tribe and they have been fighting for years for Federal Recognition to no avail. I really don't think it's the fact that one is Lumbee or Cherokee, there are some very recognizable Cherokees in Oklahoma as well as North Carolina, however, these different bands that keep coming out with no backing of past, no rolls, no identity of their own.....those are the ones we as native people question. Everyone "thinks" natives have it made, with so called "health care" and thinking we get money and really have it going goo. Therefore, seeing hobbiests and wannabe crystal wearers and whites in pocohontas looking clothes (with those goofy plastic beads on the fringe and trust us....we can also spot fake feathers a mile away)....really turns us off and makes us leary of people who can't claim their heritage. I feel that this is where the problem first began.....This is just my opinion. What do you other natives think???
      hmm..well there tons of tribes that dont have the backing some were left to 2-3 distinct families so they cant have the backing because they were practically wiped out....like for instance the eastern blackfoot on my side of the family only 2-3 families carry that ID so they got no backing becuase in my families situation they were wiped out by enemy nations and bushwackers....but their still native...ands its only because information was always passed down and tradishions but i totally agree with you on the crystal users and all that jazz we have alot of them who think or are cherokee here in ohio.. with the cherokee one can back it up if their family is enrolled but some cant because some native never registered some went into hiding...and some documentation was lossed ....and if the native side is on a females side there usually was barely any documentation because white society never recognized birth records for females and also under ethnicity if a native female would marry a white male they would be considered white which is bull.... but in death certificates and consensus records they would classify them as white not native even though they were born and raised native...i guess the point im trying to make is things happen not because of our own fault...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by geronimo
        badmutha,
        it just gets old when you start a post about "another bogus cherokee group" and then follow it with the statement...."maybe these clowns can get recognition too"---i think that's a little over the top, especially when you're all over the "lumbees/congress happenings" in various posts-it just comes across the wrong way---i think any of you would be frustrated at this point as well--i think it gets touchy on all sides, not just lumbees-it's obvious by reading all the posts--but i try to remain as level-headed as possible---we're all adults here......

        blackbear,
        i feel ya:)
        Thanks Geronimo.. as for Badmutha's "maybe these clowns.." Well he's pretty much stated over and over why he is against the lumbee being recognized in the manner that they are going and I had the same concerns and still have some of those same concerns... and I think that is what he was referring to .. that proverbial door that might let in many non legitimate native groups the same way that the Lumbee are going. I don't think he was saying you guys are'nt legit, or at least I did'nt take it that way.
        Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

        Comment


        • #19
          blackbear,
          i still think it's uncalled for--sure, people have concerns...
          but the way you fashion your responses compared to others.....it reads & translates a lot differently!!!!
          No one can make you feel inferior w/o your consent-Eleanor Roosevelt

          Comment


          • #20
            I agree with you but then not everyone is as eloquent at expressing their thoughs as myself ...chaaaaa LOL!!
            but seriously.. some guys just don't say enough and the lack of expression gets mistaken.... happens to me often as well...that's why some folks don't think I got a sense of humor
            Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Badmutha
              Apparently it is if you're Cherokee. In fact just attempting to address the issue, even in a civil manner, or even offering critiques of someone who happens to be Lumbee gets you branded a "Hater."

              :dontknow:
              To address the issue in a cival mannor would involve actually listening to what the other side is saying, not repeating the same argument over and over again even though it has been more than answered.

              Jumping into a discusion with a better attitude probably wouldn't hurt either.

              You need to give respect in order to recieve it, maybe you'll figure that out one day.

              Comment


              • #22
                cutlure/language group/current tribal name

                Originally posted by hidatsawmn26
                okay i read the article....the siouan and the lumbee are exactly not the same....two different cultures and 2 different languages etc... lumbees are of eastern nation to find proof look at the family tree...the siouan is at the trunk of the tree and nations like mandan, eastern blackfoot (notice i didnt say blackfeet which is part of the sioux tree ...totally different) hidatsa arikara etc... there was a person on eastern blackfoot webstie who posted a pic of the siouan family tree...and i know that the lumbee arent listed on that tree...so i agree the lumbees who are claiming to be of that family tree don't got their fact straight and are stealing in a way...when i find that picture of the tree that was drawn i'll post it unless someone does it before me...

                There seems to be a lot of confusion particularly in this quote, between culture, language group, and tribal names.

                The people in the article call themselves the Siouan (tribal name) the tribes named abouve ie. eastern black foot, hidatsa arikara state that this information was found on a siouan family tree....not sure where this information came from or the validatiy of that source. What lumbee dancer was saying is that siouan is a langauage family and some of the sioux do fit into this category. A language family means they have similar patterns in their langauage, maybe they have similar vows or the roll of a particualr letter sounds the same. It does not mean much more than that.

                Whether there is a cultural connection to the siouan word is debateable....for instance many of the tribes classified as siouan speaking have been foudn to have similar creation stories...i.e there is a creation story from the northern plains which dictates that two stars fell from above and "the people" were created from the one that fell in the north....there is a similar story in the southeast; two stars fell and the people were created from the one that fell in the south. I stumbled over this on accident and began to wonder. But whatever, there is no "proven" connection b/w the two groups. As far as I know they make no claim to be related...but they are both siouan speaking groups....something to think about...


                All in all what i am trying to get across is this....b/c a group claims to be a speaker of language stype does not mean they are trying to steal another's culture, they are jsut saying they roll their "Rs" in the same way as another....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by geronimo
                  badmutha,
                  it just gets old when you start a post about "another bogus cherokee group" and then follow it with the statement...."maybe these clowns can get recognition too"---i think that's a little over the top, especially when you're all over the "lumbees/congress happenings" in various posts-it just comes across the wrong way---i think any of you would be frustrated at this point as well--i think it gets touchy on all sides, not just lumbees-it's obvious by reading all the posts--but i try to remain as level-headed as possible---we're all adults here......

                  blackbear,
                  i feel ya:)

                  this is perhaps the best psot i've read about this issue...it makes sense.... and it is a good recollection of what is happening in regards to this issue...

                  I do think that there is an automatic tension that arises b/w EBCI members and Lumbee members...its an old hurt or anger depending on teh person. Its born of a history (we've occupied the same territory for ages), who knows how long ago it was that the first member of one group angered another member and they decided to not exist amicably.

                  But sometimes as adults we have to reexamine a situation. I know many EBCI's on a personal basis and to my 18yr. old surprise, I liked them all. At 24 I still like them all, well maybe there's 1 i don't care to much for. I've managed to seperate my frustration at a political situation from the my individual identity.

                  I do feel like i have to jump to the defense of my people whenver that group is threatened like most other native people. So it should come as no surprise when a Lumbee jumps at the concept of us "stealing" someone's identity. I imagine most of you would do the same.

                  I think we should be careful when critiqueing another groups identity as a whole. We tend towards two possibilties in Indian country, ethnocentric ideals and plain old colonization. These are two very dangerous concepts. As a lumbee child i though all Indians looked like me and those who didn't weren't. Now I know that folks who are Indian come in all varieties....There are Navajos who don't look a damn think like Chippewas but they are both Indian. Dang, there are Cherokees in NC who to me don't look a darn thing like the Cherokees in OK...but they are both Cherokees and both idnians. So why should Lumbee have to look like Cherokees, or Navajos, or Apaches or anything else to be Indian? Or maybe we should talk like them, or eat like them, or dress like them. Truth is we don't. And internally maybe ehtnocentrism is making you think well they can't be indian. Or maybe we're so colonzied that if it don't look like Cheif Illiani it ain't an Indian.

                  Either way its wrong. I still remember the first time I laughed at an Indian who told me I didn't look indian. THe guy looked just like my homies in England and I was thinking to myself...well if this aint' the pot callign hte kettle black....

                  That's kinda of how I look at it...I don't walk around preaching to others about my lumbee identity, but feel assured that if you ask I will tell you....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I Was Just Wondering Why Can't Native People Be Happy For Native People. I Would Like To Say There Are Always 1 Bad Apple In The Bunch Be We Can Look Over That 1 Bad Apple Cause If We Don't That 1 Bad Apple Will Sure Sh## On Us. Later Cuz!
                    we gave them an inch and they took thousands of miles

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      :)

                      Well the eastern band of cherokee have a lot of guilt like selling out to the whites awhile ago when the rest got shipped to the west. Then they should feel guilty about buying one of the most important sites of their people and then deciding to turn it into a golf course which didnt work thank God.

                      Of course 90% of the arguments about this and other native blood issues is about the almighty dollar because frankly the majority of indians have sold out.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Here we go....

                        Originally posted by Gache
                        Well the eastern band of cherokee have a lot of guilt like selling out to the whites awhile ago when the rest got shipped to the west. Then they should feel guilty about buying one of the most important sites of their people and then deciding to turn it into a golf course which didnt work thank God.

                        Of course 90% of the arguments about this and other native blood issues is about the almighty dollar because frankly the majority of indians have sold out.
                        Gache......You need to do your homework.....your statements are general at best and leave room for a whole lot of questions....more then likely it's intentional....So i'll purchase that ticket.....Guilt? Selling out.....WTF.....You come across with this 18th century " I saw it on a John Ford Movie attitude..." There are various reasons why yvwi (indians) stayed or left or were removed.....You seem to have read or bought into the 5 civilized tribes B.S............geta grip....get a grip....Got shipped 2 the west? Wasn't a dam thing to do with shipping homie....basically on the same lines of what happened to Dull Knife and Little Wolf....You need to check yourself.....As far as the Golf Course I don't care for the game and i'm not really up to speed on that particular issue, but there is a difference between what the hell Tribal Council does and what a conservative Aniyvwiya does....that holds true throughout Indian Country....As far as selling out.....I suppose then your gonna lead the proverbial charge on the system? So your cruising around with Buckskins and bows right? I just keep getting this.....Newspaper I read alot of books vibe from you.....Hey nothing wrong with reading.....Be careful though cause "His Story" leads to "Twistory" Go put on some Dr. John and accentuate the positive......Cause your sellout speech is played out.....

                        I'll say this though just 2 juice up my 'tirade" a little more.....Lumbee people.....especially their women are some of the most beautiful people i've ever had the pleasure of meeting....And that includes my own.....
                        "She also has a very soft skin. The only trouble with snake women is they copulate with horses, which makes them strange to me. She say's she doesn't. That's why I call her "Doesn't Like Horses". But, of course, she's lying."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ivypi
                          There seems to be a lot of confusion particularly in this quote, between culture, language group, and tribal names.

                          The people in the article call themselves the Siouan (tribal name) the tribes named abouve ie. eastern black foot, hidatsa arikara state that this information was found on a siouan family tree....not sure where this information came from or the validatiy of that source. What lumbee dancer was saying is that siouan is a langauage family and some of the sioux do fit into this category. A language family means they have similar patterns in their langauage, maybe they have similar vows or the roll of a particualr letter sounds the same. It does not mean much more than that.

                          Whether there is a cultural connection to the siouan word is debateable....for instance many of the tribes classified as siouan speaking have been foudn to have similar creation stories...i.e there is a creation story from the northern plains which dictates that two stars fell from above and "the people" were created from the one that fell in the north....there is a similar story in the southeast; two stars fell and the people were created from the one that fell in the south. I stumbled over this on accident and began to wonder. But whatever, there is no "proven" connection b/w the two groups. As far as I know they make no claim to be related...but they are both siouan speaking groups....something to think about...


                          All in all what i am trying to get across is this....b/c a group claims to be a speaker of language stype does not mean they are trying to steal another's culture, they are jsut saying they roll their "Rs" in the same way as another....
                          ya wasnt getting what i was saying at all from that quote....basically i was saying that the siouan is a language but to put it into a tree form on how all those nations listed under the siouan tree connect by lang. i wasnt saying that siouan was a tribe...ya should read back some posts as i stated that before...but as far as i found out the lumbee are Cheraw becuase the lumbee consist of many different nations alltogether.. it was a long time ago when the Cheraw came into part of being called lumbee...i forget the date i would have to look at a previous e-mail posted to me...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Coyote I thought you were more intelligent but Im obviously wrong.

                            First of all what I mean by sell out is that indians who are putting down other indians whether it be for blood quantum, language skills, culture, powwow skills whatever, for the sake of preserving their almighty buck at least they think they are.

                            I learned about the eastern cherokees selling out from some kituwah band members and I would go into the story but most cherokees already know it, not for some damn book because I dont read books about the cherokee bc frankly I dont give a crap about them.

                            And dont give me your BS about tribal council you morons are the ones that voted em in. So whatever council you have your responsible for. That includes those so called conservative cherokees.

                            As far as the proverbial revolution indians first have to realize they can be more than slaves before their willing to do anything about it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I see both views from gache and coyote, with some I understand and can go with and others I can't... But what I do know is that things change and have changed.... we do what we must when things must be decided apon....those desicisions that were made in the past weren't from just one person but from many of the elders and the chiefs...and they were done for a reason....now times have changed and we see those descisions as being weak or moronic....again times have changed....the descisions that I have made in the past I more than likely wouldn't make the same way again because times have changed and I no longer have only one way out...the same goes for the different nations...we can all pick out a nation and find atleast one thing that now in the present we would have done differently in the past...but had we been in the past and were put within the same margins we might have made the same descision as those who made them in the first place... I don't dwell in the past at the descisions that my people made because 1. I wasn't alive, 2. I would still be to young to have a voice, and 3. I put my faith in those who are given their positions within the nations, because more than likely they weren't put there from winning at a poker game... and besides the fact most of the time the only people that have a problem with the descisions that were made over the last 300 years ago are people that aren't even from within the nation who made the said descisions.....
                              My views on the fakes and crystal holders and wannabe what ever the only problem that I have with them whom are legit are why try to become recognized seperatly from your nation? If you are cherokee then join up with your nation western or eastern, if your lakota, nakota, dakota,apache,navajo,blackfeet,seminole etc.. etc... join with the rest of your families...why go through the trouble to become recognized seperatly? But as gache states the almight greenback has a hold on everything today....
                              And the whole lumbee thing I think I've heard and read in a few different places that the only thing that I know is that the lumbee spoke a siouan language and there for is the only reason they are linked with the other siouan speaking tribes...as for their origin at this point I think only god knows.
                              There should be a law against stupid people being able to breed!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Cheraw's were actually adopted into the Catawba's. There may have been a few that went to the gathering of a bunch a people that would later be called Lumbee's but if you check inot Catawba tribal history, Cheraw's were actually assiminated into their tribe.
                                Before you attempt to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you!

                                Why do some people bother breathing when you know their brain isn't getting the oxygen?

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