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Washington Redskins - Offensive?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by middle of the sky
    What is a "real" indian community? a rez? i grew up in cities and just because your from a rez doesn't make you more indian than city indians if that is what your implying? there some indians from the rez that drink and do other really bad stuff that isnt so traditional.
    so it's "yahoos" that get all bent up? maybe they don't go watch football or hockey cause they can't pay 30 bucks for a ticket and have to feed their families and spend time with their children? i don't know. What are they thinking? they can't contribute to millionaire player running around tossing a ballaround? gee.
    maybe they should research the issue of mascots? oops i mean taxation, cuz the city indians certainly don't know about paying taxes?
    i call my friends "indians" cuz that's what they've been called for awhile and all the degarding crap that went with those names and i ceratinly don't want to be called "first nations" and try to get some kinda easy way around it.
    indians calling other people "apples" that's so traditional. i don't speak my language and maybe i don't pray as much as i should but i certainly know not to hurt other people's feelings and try to pretend i know what's in peoples heart's as some "traditional" people do.
    "who cares?" i care.


    A real Indian community is just that...a reservation, a reserve, a community in Oklahoma, a Pueblo, an Indian community. Most of the people I see that really get stirred up about this issue come from areas outside of what I am talking about. That may not be true of everyone, but it is my personal observation.

    As for who is more Indian...don't put words in my mouth and make assumptions. I never said or even implied that. Again, I was only stating my personal observation.

    Your next paragraph confuses me...I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I know lots of Indians who go to football games all the time (high school, college and pro games). What's the point? I also know a lot of Indians whose fav teams are either the Redskins or the Chiefs :)

    As for calling people apples...I don't and have not. That would be attributed to Blackbear's comments.

    Lastly, you seem to have missed my entire point while you were caught up in some sort of identity crisis. My point is that a cartoon character - mascot won't affect the self-esteem of children or anyone if they are properly taught their culture and ways. If it does affect them, this falls on the parents and grandparents; not Chief Wahoo.
    I think everyone on this rez is addicted to Harry Potter...lol...

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Singerdad
      Most of the people I've seen who get all stirred up over this issue aren't that connected with real Indian communities. There are much bigger fish to fry, and since most of them don't know anything about real issues they latch onto the mascot thing with great furor.

      How come other issues such as sovereignty, taxation, treaty rights, water rights, land rights, etc. don't elicit the same responses? Because those are difficult issues that take a lot of time and effort to learn about and research. Any yahoo can take up the mascot fight.

      Whether you want to admit it or not there are many Indians who feel the names and mascots aren't offensive. I've spoken with quite a few who feel it is an honor. And they certainly weren't apples...(they spoke their language and practice traditional ways).

      Playing devil's advocate here for a minute: Look at how many Indian teams are named Indians, Warriors, Braves, whatever. I've heard it argued over and over that it's different...but why is it different? And come up with some other argument than the one that's always used...blacks calling each other "niggers" but no one else can use it. I don't understand that either.

      Maybe I and a lot of other people are looking at it the wrong way and we should feel overly offended and get all bent out of shape, but I don't. Who cares?

      I've heard it argued that those mascots affect the self-esteem of Indian children. That is the most ludicrous statement I have ever heard. My daughter is growing up in her culture 24/7 and to say that a stupid cartoon character will make her ashamed of being Indian is insane. Is the culture that weak that a mascot can make a child second-guess themselves? If that's the case, the problem ain't the mascots.
      My case in point was that this poll was taken in Sports Illustrated Magazine, not taken to indian communities. I'm sorry it got some folks so riled up, I was'nt stating anyone here was an apple or that just cause they are'nt offended by mascots and team names as such that they are either.
      The poll reached out to a predominently non-indian, male sports magazine group of readers and how can they be sure that those that voted were even native?
      Yes I've met traditionals too who either did'nt care one way or the other or felt honored and all I can do is except that's how they feel, but this was'nt exactly my point, but it would , in my opinion, make a difference if it had been those people that took the poll than one published in a magazine.
      As for mascots and such hurting the self esteem... I can first hand tell you that growing up (not on the rez) I was angered and frustrated alot with the tomahawk chops, the warhoops and the "where's your headress" remarks along with being called Princess, pocohantas, and hiawatha by the kids I went to school with WHO by the way did'nt care to hear about the real pocahontas, the real hiawatha or anything about my culture and how it differed from the plains tribes that DID wear headresses. So it's not altogether a ludicrious idea. But it did not make me ashamed either. It just alienated me from the other kids all the way to High School.
      How come other issues such as sovereignty, taxation, treaty rights, water rights, land rights, etc. don't elicit the same responses? Because those are difficult issues that take a lot of time and effort to learn about and research. Any yahoo can take up the mascot fight.
      They certainly elicit the same response from me... however I'm more interested in those issues than I am the mascot issue. The thing is, the mascot issue, much like the grammy awards issue, it's more of a nationwide thing that all the native nations can empathize together whereas alot of our other issues are in our communities and states. But that does'nt mean that other nations don't care either.
      Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks, "Middle" for another voice for those of us who don't live on a rez. Most ndns don't live on a rez any longer, that's something we need to get over. The wedges that keep splintering the ndn people apart is what keeps us from doing the important stuff. Why should "city Indians" care about "sovereignty" when the relatives on the rez use sovereignty to "purge" the rolls when the tribe gets a casino? In many cities, ndns get no services whatsoever, in Georgia one has to travel to Cherokee, NC (oh yeah, they don't see anyone who's not Eastern Band) or Nashville, Tennessee to go to the hospital. A 3 to 6 hour drive to the hospital? I hope it's not an emergency. Yeah, there are bigger fights to fight, but this one could get pretty nasty and has (gotten nasty) on several rezs.
        People love to take my remarks and make something different of them, but I didn't say the mascots made my children feel bad. What made them feel bad was their classmates repeating stuff they heard in the context of a ball game. Maybe that's not something you have to worry about in a rez school, but when there are only one or two ndn kids per class, it makes a big difference. Any kid feels bad when their peers make fun of them no matter what the problem is. But the mascots just give the "majority kids" more fuel to pick on the different ones.
        Last edited by Donna D; 10-01-2004, 04:51 PM.

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        • #19
          Why is it when someone says apple everyone assumes you are talking about all indians who live off the rez??? Red outside, white inside.... to me that means someone who is indian by blood but has no pride in it, knows nothing about themselves or their people and (this is the important part) don't care either until their "native oppinion" is asked for. If you fit this description then by all means be offended by me.
          Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

          Comment


          • #20
            I voted No

            I voted no myself. If the Washington Redskins changed their names to the European Americans, I wouldn't care either. I wouldnt care if they became the Washington Mayor Berry Crack heads either. I know a lot of fellow NDN's who are redskin fans, wear the ball caps and all that. I am personally a Dallas Cowboys fan. Do you think they should change their names too? You know, there are plenty of bovine out there who may be offended by their use of the term "cow" since "cow" may connotate fat chick. "Cow" also is a derogatory remark, hence the statement, "Dont have a cow, Man".
            All kidding aside, I am in almost total agreement with SingerDad. Good Posts SingerDad! There are definitely bigger issues out there facing Native Americans, sovereignty, poverty, education, equal employment opportunities, health care and nutrition for our kids. Drug and alcohol abuse, child abuse, neglect... Care for our elderly.... The list goes on , I dont give a Wahoo about Chief Wahoo..... But thats just my opinion......
            Kio-Manche
            Oklahoma Proud!!!

            Comment


            • #21
              It is a legitimate issue,but there are more important ones....
              I was definatly offended when they lost to da cowboys recently...lol
              Rides-the-Wind

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              • #22
                fat stealing wasicu Pigskins

                Since all white folk are the color of pigs why don't we just hit the road and rename the white folk as "THE FAT STEALING WASICU PIGSKINS?" I'm sure if we always referred to the white folk whenever we talk as the Pigskins, they just may change their mind.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rides the Wind
                  It is a legitimate issue,but there are more important ones....
                  I was definatly offended when they lost to da cowboys recently...lol
                  LOL....Dang RTW! You live in Tejas and don't root for Da' Boys??? I enjoyed that game....GO COWBOYS!!!

                  My name is Numunu, and I approve this message
                  Kio-Manche
                  Oklahoma Proud!!!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    After reading everyone's replies I think I understand why this tends to be a bigger issue for city Indins. Some one above mentioned that it's harder on our kids while another person argued that if mascots tear at a child's self esteem the parent is amiss. Perhaps both points are true.
                    Rez folks have to remember that city kids are often the only Indian in the classroom. Because of this, they are many times confused for every culture but their own (and for mixedblood kids like mine, whoo boy how many times have teachers told them they weren't Indian?!?!!). Therefore lessons about Thanksgiving are some times touch and go since there is still much more myth and fiction taught than fact and truth about Native cultures. Mascots then support the myths and Indian kids find themselves being spokespersons of the weirdest things. I know of at least one child who denied being Indian until she was "outed" at a powwow. Now, who's to say why she refused to be Indian at school, but we could wonder if there's a connection.
                    City folks have to remember that we do have it better in so many ways than our rez cousins. I've never had to wrestle with IHS or worry about unemployment (remember, that's why most of us became city indians in the first place). When you consider those and other issues, a mascot doesn't seem as vile. I think we should remember that our experience in Indian country, city or rez, determines our perspective and that we should be mutually respectful of all points of view.

                    I am Homalosa and I approve this message too!
                    Anyone But Bush in 04 (though Mickey Mouse need not apply)
                    Poetry is life in print.


                    https://poetryislifeinprint.wordpress.com/

                    https://www.facebook.com/KarlieCharlesSoftball/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by quicksilverwade
                      Since all white folk are the color of pigs why don't we just hit the road and rename the white folk as "THE FAT STEALING WASICU PIGSKINS?" I'm sure if we always referred to the white folk whenever we talk as the Pigskins, they just may change their mind.
                      Not sure I like the idea of trading one stereotype for another.
                      Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        ...

                        It's the very general prejudice and insensitivity that perpetuates the mascot dilemma. While I was in school this issue was dangled in front of my eyes....At home it's just as fluid as it is wherever.....What I mean is peoples opinions vary...Yes there are bigger fish 2 fry but why in 2004 do we still see such absolute foolish ignorant examples...This would seem to be a very simple no brainer? I certainly look at this as being connected to several issues being addressed in our communities....I might add I don't (or at least try my best) pass judgement on another person.....It's hard not to do this.....Now what I mean is the whole.....Your not and Indian I am thing....or on and on....I sense that here.....I can read right into what certain people push here.....Well it would be nice to cease the chest pounding and step away from your mirror for a few seconds.....Ignorance no matter in what form can be a dangerous thing, BUT when that ignorance is intentional...This turns out to be the end result.In a sense we can't even label it as ignorance or can we?..We get all engaged in this thought provoking debate....Sure we go off in tangents and on and on, but generally the mascot deal is wrong....A symbol persay may not be seen as such, but the actions and responses such symbols set in motion are.....All this i'm reading about the Rez and the City is a crock.....I rather enjoy sitting back and reading some of this....each and everyone of us know your going to find such a wide variety of opinions on this, but i'll be dammed if i'm going to accept the notion of this disrespect.....Also as far as a "yahoo" or a "Bandwagoneer" yes it may just be readily easier for someone to "join the fight" or feel somewhat apart of a community, but what's so wrong with that? When was the last time your azz in DC making a contribution to the fight? I'm sure as hell not talking about the NMAI carnival.....For that much what have you done lately? Hopefully I haven't lost ya in the sauce.....As usual my intent is to do just that, but if it will enable a little light to shine in, well why not?
                        "She also has a very soft skin. The only trouble with snake women is they copulate with horses, which makes them strange to me. She say's she doesn't. That's why I call her "Doesn't Like Horses". But, of course, she's lying."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I voted No...

                          I voted No, cause I ain't offended! I do think there should be some changes. Like the name Redskins should be changed but the image is actually good. Then the Braves Chief Wahoo. Sorry folks, he looks just like my brother in-law! Missing teeth and everything. WAHOO!

                          I went to a high school that had an American Indian mascot. I'll never be ashamed of it! The image is drawn as a Navajo Scout by one of our own. GO Window Rock High School Fighting SCOUTS!

                          American Indian images were chosen because white people were in awe and fear of our brave, fierce, and strong native men. Scared the "Hell" out of them! ha ha ha Let's all be proud of that! And let's all be proud of the fact that even though they tried, American Indians are still thriving in our country.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by kiyaanii mom
                            I voted No, cause I ain't offended! I do think there should be some changes. Like the name Redskins should be changed but the image is actually good. Then the Braves Chief Wahoo. Sorry folks, he looks just like my brother in-law! Missing teeth and everything. WAHOO!

                            I went to a high school that had an American Indian mascot. I'll never be ashamed of it! The image is drawn as a Navajo Scout by one of our own. GO Window Rock High School Fighting SCOUTS!

                            American Indian images were chosen because white people were in awe and fear of our brave, fierce, and strong native men. Scared the "Hell" out of them! ha ha ha Let's all be proud of that! And let's all be proud of the fact that even though they tried, American Indians are still thriving in our country.
                            Why do I bother? Well the School year is not in full swing yet for me so here it goes......

                            Certainly you touched on some valid points, although it's Joe Dumb Azz who i'm talking about..You know...The full fledge idiot who hops up and down and paints ridiculous nonsense on his face and the misrepresentation of our way of life and on and on.....There is a difference between the two.....The insensitivity of it and how society in general accepts that blatant Racism.....If the mainstream want to portary themselves as absolute smucks....Fine, but do so without making a mockery and belittling anyone....If you smack someone in the face long enough it becomes routine....Enough is enough....

                            And the very fact that these images are not accurate true representations of Indian peoples....If we had scared the hell out of them well how dare they base their delusional fantasy on us in the 1st place?

                            You will never ever catch me loafing by the fort or being a Good Indian......
                            "She also has a very soft skin. The only trouble with snake women is they copulate with horses, which makes them strange to me. She say's she doesn't. That's why I call her "Doesn't Like Horses". But, of course, she's lying."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Blackbear
                              Not sure I like the idea of trading one stereotype for another.
                              Good point. I didn't think that the white folk could be stereotyped as wasicu Pigskins.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                well when it seems we do a lot of white lumping, I'd say that greedy, insensitive, warring, thieves, devils and like words are stereotypes for whites. You know.. I know that the point made by K'smom is one that rings partly in truth, that the reason for these names was because they were FIERCE sounding names. Why not more teams named after animals then? And... well... dolphins does'nt quite sound like a vicious team nor does redsocks, whitesocks, cardinals, lakers.... you see what I'm getting at? I really liked the names of the XFL"s teams when they were around... too bad it did'nt make it LOL... but anyhow..... With the array of names the English language provides there certainly does'nt have to be these "honor" names does there? And just as CITH said, it should be a simple thing to just get rid of them. With as much a stir as this has been for how long, I still don't understand why it is argued over.
                                Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

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