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Washington Redskins - Offensive?

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  • geronimo
    replied
    "In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same."
    Albert Einstein

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  • 04jingle26
    replied
    Originally posted by Singerdad
    You're talking apples and oranges here. Opponents of the mascot frequently say it harms Indians kid's self-esteem and I argue against that...I think it's B.S. If a child is properly enculturated (thanks for the word lngfthr!), then a cartoon character is not going to harm their self-esteem. To say that is to say that our culture is not as strong as a mascot and I don't buy it.

    The stuff you're talking about is overt racism. Sure, she'll face that in her life. Actually, when she goes to college she'll probably be somewhat of a celebrity as most college kids really like Indians. The only problems will probably be encountered in border towns, but hey, who frequents border towns anymore? LOL
    Singerdad, I was reading your last two posts and see what your saying. I agree there are so many issues. My family works very hard with our tribe, in our band and in our council, so I am very familiar with what is going on with traditional and contemporary issues. But you have to look at the broader picture here. What makes anyone think that if they can not take us seriously about such a minor issue that they are going to really listen and take action with major ones.

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  • 04jingle26
    replied
    Originally posted by Pokiehonkie
    When I really think about it, I am. When I see those fat, ugly, white (or other) morons out there in fake headdresses and paint, I am insulted.

    But, I think there are more important issues to be addressed, and our energy is better spent addressing those issues that directly affect our community.

    I agree with you about being insulted by it but disagree with you about there are more important issues to address. Yes, there are lots of very important things to address but as long as a caricature of Native people are dancing across fields, stadiums and schools (Even in advertising), we will never be taken seriously. The general public is bombarded by all this dehumanizing images and begin to associate us with them. Only a character or cartoon (Someone that no longer exists).
    I will quote you a statement from an article from the Miami Herald:
    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...n/12393925.htm
    "OUR OPINION: INSULTING TO MAKE LIGHT OF GENOCIDE AGAINST INDIANS

    Three prominent Floridians, ardent Florida State University boosters, have embarrassed all residents of the state with their insulting, ignorance-riddled comments about the infamous ''Trail of Tears'' and the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma. They owe more than an apology to the Oklahoma Seminoles. They owe one to Floridians, too. Then the three -- state Sen. Jim King and FSU President T.K. Wetherell and trustee Robert McFarlain -- should sign up for an American-history course at the college they so errantly tried to defend.

    Disparaging comments

    The three indulged in incorrect and offensive comments about the Oklahoma tribe last week after the NCAA announced restrictions on college displays of American Indian nicknames and imagery, including FSU's Seminoles sports teams. Believing that the Oklahoma tribe officially opposed FSU's use of their name, while the Florida Seminole Tribe supports it, Messrs. King, Wetherell and McFarlain made disparaging comments about the Oklahomans, whose ancestors were victims of the genocidal U.S. government policy of the 1800s known as the Trail of Tears. The government force-marched thousands of Indians from their ancestral homes west to Oklahoma. Countless people died along the way in one of the country's more shameful chapters.

    About 200 Seminoles escaped to Florida and waged a long war with the U.S. government. They are the ancestors of today's Florida Seminoles.

    Inveighed Mr. McFarlain about the Oklahomans: ''They got run out of here, by who was it, Andrew Jackson? The Trail of Tears. The real Seminoles stayed here.'' For good measure, he added that he could ''care less what the Seminoles in Oklahoma think.'' Here's Sen. King: ''They're the ones that gave up and went to the reservation,'' about the Oklahoma tribe. President Wetherell, in a comment about the NCAA decision brought on by Indian tribes' pressure, said, ``maybe the Trail of Tears should have gone farther, I don't know.''

    I am Seminole from OK and I am veryyyyyy insulted by these gentlemen (and I am using that term loosely) reactions and statements, and the mascots!!! These are men that hold high position jobs and work in our government. If they feel like this about my tribe or any other tribe why would they give two cents about our issues. If it is just a mascot as supports always say then why all the hatred and racist comments. Its more than that.

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  • Singerdad
    replied
    Originally posted by Ivypi
    But what of the day when she is off at a University and is walking around and has something challenged (her religion, her beliefs, her culture, dang even her hair) and she doesn't react the way you think she will. When she calls you crying and all she wants is to come back home where its safe away from all of that. My parents feel the same way you do. Of course there daughter has enough self-esteem to withstand that stuff...but they had to face the day when I called and said I wanted to come home. I'm tough as nails and anyone who knows me will vouch for that...but somethings will wear you down after awhile.

    It wasn't the mascot itself that got me or will someday get our chidlren if we're not careful....it was my fellow student who said my hair was too curly for me to be Indian...or my sister's friend who said she was too light. Its the old guy I'm supposed to look up to because he has the job I wanted or the __________ I wanted, who screamed scalp those Indian like a maniac at 75 yrs. old (a person I saw as an elder even if he was white). That's what breaks down the self esteem issue....when people live the effects of having a mascot it breaks down their self-esteem, NOT just seeing a mascot.....
    You're talking apples and oranges here. Opponents of the mascot frequently say it harms Indians kid's self-esteem and I argue against that...I think it's B.S. If a child is properly enculturated (thanks for the word lngfthr!), then a cartoon character is not going to harm their self-esteem. To say that is to say that our culture is not as strong as a mascot and I don't buy it.

    The stuff you're talking about is overt racism. Sure, she'll face that in her life. Actually, when she goes to college she'll probably be somewhat of a celebrity as most college kids really like Indians. The only problems will probably be encountered in border towns, but hey, who frequents border towns anymore? LOL

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivypi
    replied
    your daughter is fortunate now....

    Originally posted by Singerdad
    Most of the people I've seen who get all stirred up over this issue aren't that connected with real Indian communities. There are much bigger fish to fry, and since most of them don't know anything about real issues they latch onto the mascot thing with great furor.

    How come other issues such as sovereignty, taxation, treaty rights, water rights, land rights, etc. don't elicit the same responses? Because those are difficult issues that take a lot of time and effort to learn about and research. Any yahoo can take up the mascot fight.

    Whether you want to admit it or not there are many Indians who feel the names and mascots aren't offensive. I've spoken with quite a few who feel it is an honor. And they certainly weren't apples...(they spoke their language and practice traditional ways).

    Playing devil's advocate here for a minute: Look at how many Indian teams are named Indians, Warriors, Braves, whatever. I've heard it argued over and over that it's different...but why is it different? And come up with some other argument than the one that's always used...blacks calling each other "niggers" but no one else can use it. I don't understand that either.

    Maybe I and a lot of other people are looking at it the wrong way and we should feel overly offended and get all bent out of shape, but I don't. Who cares?

    I've heard it argued that those mascots affect the self-esteem of Indian children. That is the most ludicrous statement I have ever heard. My daughter is growing up in her culture 24/7 and to say that a stupid cartoon character will make her ashamed of being Indian is insane. Is the culture that weak that a mascot can make a child second-guess themselves? If that's the case, the problem ain't the mascots.


    But what of the day when she is off at a University and is walking around and has something challenged (her religion, her beliefs, her culture, dang even her hair) and she doesn't react the way you think she will. When she calls you crying and all she wants is to come back home where its safe away from all of that. My parents feel the same way you do. Of course there daughter has enough self-esteem to withstand that stuff...but they had to face the day when I called and said I wanted to come home. I'm tough as nails and anyone who knows me will vouch for that...but somethings will wear you down after awhile.

    It wasn't the mascot itself that got me or will someday get our chidlren if we're not careful....it was my fellow student who said my hair was too curly for me to be Indian...or my sister's friend who said she was too light. Its the old guy I'm supposed to look up to because he has the job I wanted or the __________ I wanted, who screamed scalp those Indian like a maniac at 75 yrs. old (a person I saw as an elder even if he was white). That's what breaks down the self esteem issue....when people live the effects of having a mascot it breaks down their self-esteem, NOT just seeing a mascot.....

    Leave a comment:


  • goodgirl
    replied
    well I can see how some terms would be offensive, but I think blanketly (word invention -- woo) changing names willy-nilly is silly. Like with NORAD changing the names of all its operations, even "Operation Warrior" -- um, Indians aren't the only warriors, and it IS a military operation? And I think some Indian names seem kind of respectful, like (unless you're a peace activist) having a battle helicopter named after Black Hawk seems kinda cool. But where are people gonna draw the line -- name Indiana "Native Americana"? Capital, Native Americanapolis? It's just weird after a while.

    And there are other sports teams named after stereotypes; somebody brought up the Cowboys (not everone in Texas is), then there's the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame and the Belles of their sister school, St. Mary's. Purdue has the Boilermakers, Arkansas the Boll Weevils, and there's even a college team known as the Dirtbags. Leathernecks, Claim Jumpers, heck the Sooners and Tar Heels all started out as insults. Heck, I went to a women's college where athletes were known as The Vixens. No stereotype there! :)

    As far as being made fun of, I dunno, maybe I'm thickskinned but my grandparents were Russian and Polish respectively, and it never really tore me up to hear a Polack joke. and God knows every single movie in the '80's had a bad Russian accented villain, right? Commie this, Commie that. I got in a few scraps over the Commie thing since they were the ones who killed my family members -- but that's far beyond somebody making "woo-woo sounds" IMO, that's more like if schoolmates were calling you Wasichu Rednecks, I mean it's insane.

    Just my thinks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Emmy
    replied
    Originally posted by Kakeeya
    Yes I think the name is very offensive especially with the history of the DC area. The area of "Indian Head" (a DC suburb) was named when Native peoples heads would be cut off and put up on posts around the area to show NDN people what would happen if they went around that area. Now they are supposedly honoring us????
    actually it was named Indian Headlands, maryland ... after a part of what used to be indian land there...

    then just shortened....
    Last edited by Emmy; 08-15-2005, 02:26 PM.

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  • Kakeeya
    replied
    To whoever gave me the good rep for my post........

    THANK YOU!!!!

    But yes I know that the Washington Redskins are not from Washington State lol. :Chatter in my previous post, I mentioned "Indian Head" and that would be in VA. One of my friends lives close to there and recently told me that story when I went to DC for the NMAI Opening. :)

    Leave a comment:


  • fri_bread_addict
    replied
    Coyot - My point exactly. I understand where the "proverbial chit" comes from. I will be the first person to admit that the US has some major MAJOR issues. Native Americans have been ignored and dismissed at every opportunity. I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like to be NDN, I don't. I do see what my boyfriend and our family and friends go through on a daily basis. I see people's faces when he says he's NDN. I hear the ridiculous questions that are asked "Do you live in a tipi?"

    His sister and I went into a new age store run by white people the other day. She asked if the store-owner would be interested in buying some of her beadwork (her pieces kick azz). The lady turned around to her and said "we buy our pieces from REAL indians." Her definition of real indians....a few people that say that their great great great aunt's cousin was Cherokee.

    White people mainly do it to themselves, but not all of us are all the same. Some of us atleast admit we're messed up and try to fix it! :)

    Leave a comment:


  • fri_bread_addict
    replied
    Originally posted by Blackbear
    Not sure I like the idea of trading one stereotype for another.
    Good call Blackbear!

    The answer to fixing the problem is not who can call who what names. I'm going to admit it...I'm white! My boyfriend is NDN and we're both very proud of his culture. I'm not a groupie or fake or anything else. I was accepted into his family and they have taught me so much I could never repay them. I usually don't say very much regarding the race card, but this time I am. A person is not identified by their skin. A person should be judged individually. A person is either good or bad, but everyone is not the same.

    I don't agree with a team being called the Redskins, but it's there and it's not going to change. People say words all the time that they do not realize people might take offense to.

    "You're so gay"
    "You're so retarded"
    "Guido"
    "Guinea"
    "Paddy"

    The list goes on and on. I understand where what you're saying comes from, but you should retaliate by teaching a child more about your culture not calling other people names :)

    Leave a comment:


  • Blackbear
    replied
    YAHOO... Battling BUSH!

    CITH-- we've had our disageements before but I agree with you on this. Yeah it's not as important as say water and health care and soveriegnty rights or misappropriated funds, but the mascots do promote the stereotypes, and the average non native joe blow does'nt know the difference. Hey at the very least, protesting the names of teams at least is educating some folks as to WHY we find these things offensive.

    Leave a comment:


  • kiyaanii mom
    replied
    Originally posted by Coyot_In_The_House
    I thought you were a Convert? LOL

    I didn't quote you so that was not intended for you....I should have been clearer though.....Didn't mean to Raz you , but at least your paying attention...My point is simple....Issues, Concerns, Political pissing matches, whatever....Is part of the larger picture...I can't see how people can play off the "mascot situation" as a trivial meaningless thing...Racism is racism no matter how you look at it....How folks can pound their chests and shout from the highest mountain top of how Indian they are and it doesn't bother them is where I directed my BS....

    If I come across to you as Wise, believe me i'm limited in that capacity.....LOL....

    *This P.S.A. is brought to you by a Coyot, please don't take what I say personally*
    O.K. Now I get your message. Thanks for the plain english. I sometimes waiver on the fence of offended or not. But today I'm in an "Anti-Bush" mood, ready to battle the dragon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Coyot_In_The_House
    replied
    Duck and Dive......

    Originally posted by kiyaanii mom
    Who are you talking to? Us NDN with our "heads up our azz" who don't react to every little thorn in our paws? Or the the white "jack azz waving the hatchet" who is so insensitive that no matter what they will never get it?

    Wise one, why don't you just lay out "the plan" for all they rest of us with our "heads up our azz." Cause I have not heard any solutions or course of action!

    PS: Still not offended.
    I thought you were a Convert? LOL

    I didn't quote you so that was not intended for you....I should have been clearer though.....Didn't mean to Raz you , but at least your paying attention...My point is simple....Issues, Concerns, Political pissing matches, whatever....Is part of the larger picture...I can't see how people can play off the "mascot situation" as a trivial meaningless thing...Racism is racism no matter how you look at it....How folks can pound their chests and shout from the highest mountain top of how Indian they are and it doesn't bother them is where I directed my BS....

    If I come across to you as Wise, believe me i'm limited in that capacity.....LOL....

    *This P.S.A. is brought to you by a Coyot, please don't take what I say personally*

    Leave a comment:


  • kiyaanii mom
    replied
    Originally posted by Coyot_In_The_House
    By far there is indeed a grander picture here...it's not the small little point of some jack azz waving a hatchet or some other issue.....who the hell puts things in small compartments and conviently pulls them out when need be...? Don't you see how that rational or theory applies to just about every goddam thing we encounter when dealing with mindset of this White Creature....Does it sink in? So while we have "Joe Indian" here and "Joe Hero" there....... pull your head out of your azz for a minute or two....Yes your comical....But do you actually have a clue as far as what i'm saying, or did I lose you at By far??? So when we look at the bigger picture is it clear now to see why certain issues simply fall into the larger mix? So.......The more important stuff falls right in line with this stuff.......Or any other stuff for that matter....
    Who are you talking to? Us NDN with our "heads up our azz" who don't react to every little thorn in our paws? Or the the white "jack azz waving the hatchet" who is so insensitive that no matter what they will never get it?

    Wise one, why don't you just lay out "the plan" for all they rest of us with our "heads up our azz." Cause I have not heard any solutions or course of action!

    PS: Still not offended.

    Leave a comment:


  • Coyot_In_The_House
    replied
    Give it some thought....Maybe it won't hurt...

    By far there is indeed a grander picture here...it's not the small little point of some jack azz waving a hatchet or some other issue.....who the hell puts things in small compartments and conviently pulls them out when need be...? Don't you see how that rational or theory applies to just about every goddam thing we encounter when dealing with mindset of this White Creature....Does it sink in? So while we have "Joe Indian" here and "Joe Hero" there....... pull your head out of your azz for a minute or two....Yes your comical....But do you actually have a clue as far as what i'm saying, or did I lose you at By far??? So when we look at the bigger picture is it clear now to see why certain issues simply fall into the larger mix? So.......The more important stuff falls right in line with this stuff.......Or any other stuff for that matter....

    Leave a comment:

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