New TNT Movie: Into The West

[Plenty Fox]

aparently the series was based off of a book by the same title by Max McCoy. Haven't read it yet, but I know I'm going to want to find and read it now. Has anyone else heard or read it yet?

There is a related thread where several of us comment on McCoy's book. The book was written AFTER the screenplay for the show was written. It is a companion piece only.

[suzyq]

What was it exactly that made our practice of this new found (i.e. different) spirituality unacceptable in White terms? Yes, we added our own practices of singing and dancing to put our stamp upon it; but ITW shows Native people experiencing a 'rapture' that in this day and age is acceptable--particularly among pentecostal and evangelical Christian groups in America. One hundred years and a difference in race...

Another theme I perceived, again, was the power of the media. Newspapers and TV channels look for sensational headlines and stories to get ratings and sell their product. It appears it was no different circa 1890.


I don't regret watching the show. I don't regret it being made; so long as one White person is filled with an inter-generational shame that matches my disgust and grief.

FEAR is what the dance instilled in the little panty waist dude that kept whining. That was the difference. His little chicken chit a$$ was too scared to be there, yet he wanted to run the place without having to fear the Indian. A united group, even today, is more fearful than one or two people.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I told my hubby they haven't changed in the media one bit!

I am totally DISGUSTED and ASHAMED at the white man then and now for all past and present disgusting and horriffic things they have made the Indians endure and my heart holds indescrible grief for each and every Indian that has been affected by the miserable excuse for a white man/woman. I hope to God that someday I can finally prove to myself that my grandmother was Cherokee and that I never had a relative that was a part of these atrocities.

ALWAYS STAND PROUD!

[Plenty Fox]

I am totally DISGUSTED and ASHAMED at the white man then and now for all past and present disgusting and horriffic things they have made the Indians endure and my heart holds indescrible grief for each and every Indian that has been affected by the miserable excuse for a white man/woman. I hope to God that someday I can finally prove to myself that my grandmother was Cherokee and that I never had a relative that was a part of these atrocities.

ALWAYS STAND PROUD!

Suzy please edit your post so it does not infer that I am the source of all the quotes referred to. I did NOT make all those statements, only the first, third and fifth. If the comments after each of my statements are your own you should make that clear!

[Blackbear]

You know.. I just wish this one had ended with showing modern day... just to show this was'nt just the past, but that we are still enduring no matter how much crap is thrown our way.

[suzyq]

Suzy please edit your post so it does not infer that I am the source of all the quotes referred to. I did NOT make all those statements, only the first, third and fifth. If the comments after each of my statements are your own you should make that clear!

I apologize for any misconceptions or errors that I made. I have corrected them.

[Plenty Fox]

Taking history one step further...

You know.. I just wish this one had ended with showing modern day... just to show this was'nt just the past, but that we are still enduring no matter how much crap is thrown our way.

I agree that White AMerica needs to see that 1) we are a living culture with many of the same issues as every other American; but that 2) the atrocities continue today: Big Mountain/Black Mesa AZ where the Dineh were forced to relocate on Hopi land, and their land was sold by the government to Peabody Cole (sp?)--a British company-- for mining and guess who gets the profits? Just one example.

This show couldn't have shown the present because it is called "Into the West" and is a DRAMATIZATION of the parallel paths of two families as history and westward expansion ocurred in this country; not a DOCUMENTARY.

A film dealing with current day issues is much needed; one that shows the occupations of Alcatraz and Wounded Knee episodes, that shows the Big Mountain travesty. But, to get Whites to watch it will require some finesse. WhoMe is working on a project right now, as reported in this thread, that can go a long way to reaching the collective conscience (if there is one) of White America so it quits thinking White oppression ended in 1890 whatever.

[fightingoneself]

There is a related thread where several of us comment on McCoy's book. The book was written AFTER the screenplay for the show was written. It is a companion piece only.

See, this will teach me never to judge a book by it's cover.

As far as the whole project showing modern day, I was hoping that they would somehow show modern times too, realizing at the same time how they couldn't. All the things you mentioned should be shown, somehow, some way. I can't wait to see what WhoMe comes out with in the end.

[NativeWay]

18 Medal of Honor Citations

And to think 18 Medal of Honor Citations were handed out to the soldiers at Wounded Knee.

[Plenty Fox]

And to think 18 Medal of Honor Citations were handed out to the soldiers at Wounded Knee.

Yes, it is disturbing; but it fits with the time in history in which it occurred, doesn't it?

[OlowanWi]

You need to search your soul a little more

FEAR is what the dance instilled in the little panty waist dude that kept whining. That was the difference. His little chicken chit a$$ was too scared to be there, yet he wanted to run the place without having to fear the Indian. A united group, even today, is more fearful than one or two people.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I told my hubby they haven't changed in the media one bit!

I am totally DISGUSTED and ASHAMED at the white man then and now for all past and present disgusting and horriffic things they have made the Indians endure and my heart holds indescrible grief for each and every Indian that has been affected by the miserable excuse for a white man/woman. I hope to God that someday I can finally prove to myself that my grandmother was Cherokee and that I never had a relative that was a part of these atrocities.

ALWAYS STAND PROUD!

I know this post is going to ruffle some feathers, but I just have to say this:
You are just adding your part of the hate that has been created by all past atrocities. I am a full blood and, fortunately, I don't have to try and prove to anyone what my ancestry is, but I take great exception to your blanket condemnation of "white man/woman". There are many more white people in my life who have enriched my existence, and those of my children. I work with white people and natives alike, in a store that celebrates my culture and helps to preserve it. I would consider it cowardly and shameful to blame all white people for a horrific past, or even for the attrocities that occur even today. I hope that for your sake, since it seems to be what will define you, that you do not come to find out that, Lo and behold, you have a white person in your ancestry. *sarcasm, sorry*
Again, I know this is going to ruffle feathers, but I can't stand by and let statements that inflammatory and ignorant to just roll by. I apologize in advance for your hurt feelings, but I stand by my convictions.

[suzyq]

I know this post is going to ruffle some feathers, but I just have to say this:
You are just adding your part of the hate that has been created by all past atrocities. I am a full blood and, fortunately, I don't have to try and prove to anyone what my ancestry is, but I take great exception to your blanket condemnation of "white man/woman". There are many more white people in my life who have enriched my existence, and those of my children. I work with white people and natives alike, in a store that celebrates my culture and helps to preserve it. I would consider it cowardly and shameful to blame all white people for a horrific past, or even for the attrocities that occur even today. I hope that for your sake, since it seems to be what will define you, that you do not come to find out that, Lo and behold, you have a white person in your ancestry. *sarcasm, sorry*
Again, I know this is going to ruffle feathers, but I can't stand by and let statements that inflammatory and ignorant to just roll by. I apologize in advance for your hurt feelings, but I stand by my convictions.

No feathers ruffled here. I appreciate your honesty and I should have waited to write my post perhaps because the series brought so many things to light that have never been put before my eyes. I have a deep heart for all races and to boldly be shown the past in this way, just finally got to me. I've read so many things and it's hard to put images with reading, so it's not as vivid as seeing it in front of you (even though it is just a reinactment).

I absolutely do not blame all white people for the past or present for any atrocities that happened to all races. Had I taken a deep breath and thought more clearly, I should have said I would be ashamed to know that I was related to anyone that was involved in these horrible acts. I am a deep and caring person with a big heart and a big mouth that I have a problem controlling when I get upset sometimes. I in no way intended to offend anyone, just blow off some steam.

I'm not trying to prove ancestry to anyone other than learning what mine is. As far as I can find out, I am absolutely positively white, even though I have been told my grandmother was Cherokee. Whether I find out or not certainly is not going to define me, I think at 49 that's already been done, good, bad or indifferent.

My feelings are not hurt, you stated your opinion and that's the way it's supposed to be.

Again, I apologize if I offended you or anyone else.

[Historian]

And to think 18 Medal of Honor Citations were handed out to the soldiers at Wounded Knee.

Unbelievably, a total of 25 soldiers were recommended for the Medal of Honor for their actions during the massacre of Big Foot's camp. Of these recommendations 20 were approved, and the Medals of Honor were issued.


The following is what is written on the roadside "historical marker" in Wounded Knee, South Dakota.

Wounded Knee Massacre

Chief Big Foot, with this Minneconjou and Hunkpapa Sioux Band of 106 warriors, 250 women and children, were encamped on this Flat, surrounded by the U.S. 7th Cavalry (470 soldiers), commanded by Col. Forsythe.

The "Messiah Craze" possessed many Indians, who left the vicinity of the Agencies to "Ghost Dance" during the summer and fall of 1890. "Unrest" on the Pine Ridge Reservation was partly due to the reduction of beef rations by Congress, and to the "Ghost Dancing" of Chiefs Sitting Bull, Hump, Big Foot, Kicking Bear, and Short Bull. The Sioux were told by Kicking Bear and Short Bull that by wearing "Ghost Shirts," the ghost dancing warriors would become immune to the whiteman's bullets and could openly defy the soldiers and white settlers, and bring back the old days of the big buffalo herds.

On Nov. 15, 1890, Indian Agent Royer (Lakota Wokokpa) at Pine Ridge called for troops, and by Dec. 1, 1890, several thousand U.S. Regulars were assembled in this area of Dakota Territory.

On Dec. 15, 1890, Chief Sitting Bull was killed by Lt. Bullhead of the Standing Rock Indian Police. Forty of Sitting Bull's braves escaped from Grand River, and joined Chief Big Foot's band on Deep Creek, to camp and "Ghost Dance" on the south fork of the Cheyenne River. Chief Big Foot was under close scrutiny of Lt. Col. Sumner and his troops, and on Dec. 23, 1890, they were ordered to arrest Big Foot as a hostile. However, the Big Foot band had already silently slipped away from the Cheyenne county, into the Badlands, heading for Pine Ridge.

On Dec. 28, 1890, without a struggle, Chief Big Foot surrendered to the U.S. 7th Cavalry (Maj. Whitside) at the site marked by a sign five miles north of here. The Band was then escorted to Wounded Knee, camping that night under guard.

Re-enforcements of the U.S. 7th Cavalry (including one company of Indian Scouts) arrived at Wounded Knee from Pine Ridge Agency the morning of Dec. 29, 1890. Col. Forsythe took command of a force of 470 men. A battery of four Hotchkiss guns was placed on the hill 400 feet west of here, overlooking the Indian encampment. Big Foot's Band was encircled at 9:00 a.m. by a line of foot soldiers and cavalry. Chief Big Foot, sick with pneumonia, lay in a warmed tent provided by Col. Forsythe, in the center of the camp. A white flag flew there, placed by the Indians. Directly in the rear of the Indian Camp was a dry draw, running east and west.

The Indians were ordered to surrender their arms before proceeding to Pine Ridge. Capt. Wallace, with an Army detail, began searching the teepees for hidden weapons. During this excitement, Yellow Bird, a medicineman, walked among the braves, blowing on an eaglebone whistle, inciting the warriors to action, declaring that the "Ghost Shirts" worn by the warriors would protect them from the soldier's bullets. A shot was fired, and all hell broke loose. The troops fired a deadly volley into the Council warriors, killing nearly half of them. A bloody hand-to-hand struggle followed, all the more desperate since the Indians were armed mostly with clubs, knives, and revolvers. The Hotchkiss guns fired 2-pound explosive shells on the groups, indiscriminately killing warriors, women, children, and their own disarming soldiers. Soldiers were killed by cross-fire of their comrades in this desperate engagement.

Surviving Indians stampeded in wild disorder for the shelter of the draw 200 feet to the south, escaping west and east in the draw, and north down Wounded Knee Creek. Pursuit by the 7th Cavalry resulted in the killing of more men, women and children, causing this battle to be referred to as the "Wounded Knee Massacre". One hour later, 146 Indian men, women and children lay dead in Wounded Knee Creek valley. The bodies of many were scattered along a distance of two miles from the scene of the encounter. Twenty soldiers were killed on the field, and sixteen later died of wounds. Wounded soldiers and Indians alike were taken to Pine Ridge Agency. A blizzard came up. Four days later, an Army detail gathered up the Indian dead and buried them in a common grave at the top of the hill northwest of here. A monument marks this grave.

"Ghost Dancing" ended with this encounter. The Wounded Knee battlefield is the site of the last armed conflict between the Sioux Indians and the United States Army.

************************************************** *************
These are the names inscribed on the memorial marker at the mass grave cemetary at Wounded Knee. They represent only a few of the many that are burried there.

Chief Big Foot
High Hawk
Shading Bear
Long Bull
White American
Black Coyote
Ghost Horse
Living Bear
Afraid of Bear
Young Afraid of Bear
Yellow Robe
Wounded Hand
Red Eagle
Pretty Hawk
Wm. Horn Cloud
Sherman Horn Cloud
Scatters Them
Red Fish
Swift Bird
He Crow
Little Water
Strong Fox
Spotted Thunder
Shoots the Bear
Picked Horses
Bear Cuts Body
Chase In Winter
Tooth Its Hole
Red Horn
He Eagle
No Ears
Wolf Skin Necklace
Lodge Skin Knopkin
Charge At Them
Weasel Bear
Bird Shakes
Big Skirt
Brown Turtle
Blue American
Pass Water in Horn
Scabbard Knife
Small Side Bear
Kills Seneca

For more detailed information on the Wounded Knee massacre, I highly recommend the following book:

Seymour, Forrest W. Sitanka: The Full Story of Wounded Knee. Christopher Publishing House, Hanover, MA, 1981.

[geronimo]

movie question

Was Gil Birmingham/Dogstar killed during the Massacre in the movie? Seems like he was shot running away but I can't remember. He was one of my favorite characters. You could literally see the pain on his face in every scene he was in. I also really liked Chaske Spencer/Voices that Carry and the last Loved by the Buffalo. And what happened to Abe Wheeler? Did they ever say???????


And, I learned something interesting from Episode 6. I never knew they had cannons @ Wounded Knee. That was absolutely mind-boggling to me............

[Historian]

...And, I learned something interesting from Episode 6. I never knew they had cannons @ Wounded Knee. That was absolutely mind-boggling to me............

The four artillery pieces you refer to as "cannons", used at Wounded Knee were actually 1.65" (40mm), rapid-fire, breech-loading, Hotchkiss Mountain Guns. The 1.65" Hotchkiss Mountain Gun fired a 2 pound, 10 ounce cartrige which would explode on contact, sending out a shower of jagged shell fragments. The four soldiers on each Hotchkiss Mountain Gun could fire at the rate of 50 shells per minute, and had an effective range of 4,200 yards. The effect was horific.

[White Powwow Dancer]

Hi Historian
What is Lakota Wokokpa? Not schooled in Lakota here that the name they called Royer in the movie.