New TNT Movie: Into The West

[Dawgwhisperer]

The four artillery pieces you refer to as "cannons", used at Wounded Knee were actually 1.65" (40mm), rapid-fire, breech-loading, Hotchkiss Mountain Guns. The 1.65" Hotchkiss Mountain Gun fired a 2 pound, 10 ounce cartrige which would explode on contact, sending out a shower of jagged shell fragments. The four soldiers on each Hotchkiss Mountain Gun could fire at the rate of 50 shells per minute, and had an effective range of 4,200 yards. The effect was horific.

Historian......Did you get this info. from the book you recommended? I have the book by Dee Brown, "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee". I haven't read it yet, but I'm into the info. that you've provided. I want to learn more.

[Historian]

Historian......Did you get this info. from the book you recommended? I have the book by Dee Brown, "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee". I haven't read it yet, but I'm into the info. that you've provided. I want to learn more.

The specific information on the Hotchkiss Mountain Guns came from a combination of "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee," and:

NOTES ON U.S. ORDNANCE: VOLUME II (1776-1941).
by James E. Hicks.

THE 1886 MACHINE GUN MANUAL: DESCRIPTION OF SERVICE.
by Jacques N. Jacobsen.

[Historian]

Hi Historian
What is Lakota Wokokpa? Not schooled in Lakota here that the name they called Royer in the movie.

The word "Wokokpa" on the Historical Marker should have been wo kokipa, meaning "to be afraid." Lakota Wokokipa, or "to be afraid of Lakotas."

[CHEROSAGE]

Dawgwhisperer, Historian is correct again as usual about the Hotchkiss Guns. These guns were a very distructful light Artillery piece. Should you ever find yourself in the vicinity of Ft. Sill OK you should take the time to go through the Artillery Museum. This is an inside and outside exibit of just about any and all Artillery guns ever made. This gun was very ingenius and distructive for it's time. I prefered the 155mm gun myself when I was in the Artillery(big guns). I do think that this gun was refered to in the book Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. I had to read this book in college when it was written.

I don't think that A Man Called Horse was until after the Mid 70's and the Little Big Man movie was in the early 70's. These were after the Billy Jack Movies in, I think, the early 70's. I remember I just had to have a Billy Jack hat when this movie came out. Some of you guys may remember the time frame better than I. Billy Jack and the Little Big Man movies started a new NDN craze set of movies.

I know that many tribes and villages adopted Whites and Blacks, whether male or female. I am sure that a Cherokee leader having taken over from Dragging Canoe was a Scot with a 1/4 blood Cherokee. He later took many to Texas from the Old Settlers Res. in Ark/Mo. This is just an example. I know I have A white Great Grandma in the closet. (I think she was a european princess.) Ross himself was not even a full blood. I don't know much about the Lakotas/Nakotas/ Dakotas tribal ways but our Osage people used to go make raids into the Southwest and bring back captives whom were adopted into the families.(many of these captives may have been Comanche, Apache, Mexican, Kiowa or even white.) These are things I was told as a child. Historian could tell us more of intigration better than I could.

Just some of my observations. Thanks.

[White Powwow Dancer]

The word "Wokokpa" on the Historical Marker should have been wo kokipa, meaning "to be afraid." Lakota Wokokipa, or "to be afraid of Lakotas."

Thanks Historian for the info. I watch the sence too when he has be called that.

[OlowanWi]

My Mom lives, literally, down the road, within sight, of the WK Massacre site. I just wanted to make a quick note to people who might visit the site, which I tell everyone I know who goes to visit.
Please keep in mind that this is where our dead are buried. It is not a tourist attraction set up to educate you, or fulfill any kind of morbid curiosities.
The grave site is located among other more current graves, including the one of my friend Katrina.
Conduct yourself, and for goodness sake, your children, as you would at any cemetery.
Keep in mind that we are still mourning the WK tragedy, and go to the mass grave to pray and honor those who innocently lost their lives.
The community of Wounded Knee is still alive, and is struggling to thrive. Respect that people are living around that area, and are not set there for all your photographic needs. Don't portray us as the "poor little Indians". ASK, please, before you photograph our children.
I hope, when you do visit, that you walk away with a feeling of deep regret and sorrow that will help you to understand just a little of our grief.

[Plenty Fox]

Historian......Did you get this info. from the book you recommended? I have the book by Dee Brown, "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee". I haven't read it yet, but I'm into the info. that you've provided. I want to learn more.

Hey! That looks just like my cat! *L

[Dawgwhisperer]

My Mom lives, literally, down the road, within sight, of the WK Massacre site. I just wanted to make a quick note to people who might visit the site, which I tell everyone I know who goes to visit.
Please keep in mind that this is where our dead are buried. It is not a tourist attraction set up to educate you, or fulfill any kind of morbid curiosities.
The grave site is located among other more current graves, including the one of my friend Katrina.
Conduct yourself, and for goodness sake, your children, as you would at any cemetery.
Keep in mind that we are still mourning the WK tragedy, and go to the mass grave to pray and honor those who innocently lost their lives.
The community of Wounded Knee is still alive, and is struggling to thrive. Respect that people are living around that area, and are not set there for all your photographic needs. Don't portray us as the "poor little Indians". ASK, please, before you photograph our children.
I hope, when you do visit, that you walk away with a feeling of deep regret and sorrow that will help you to understand just a little of our grief.

I went back a little through the thread and I'm just curious as to why you are concerned about WK being looked at as a tourist attraction by anyone here. I cannot believe that anyone that frequents this site (that I've "observed" so far) would look at it that way let alone set people up for a "photo op". Personally, I don't see how it could be construed as "your" grief when I already have deep regret and sorrow for all of the horrors that have been endured in general by OUR people. WK is surely one of the most prominent, but not the only event in history that has produced deep agony and pain. I'm not trying to offend you by my comments, but I don't feel like I need to be "advised" on how to conduct myself if I go there. I'm not speaking for anyone else, that's just me.

[Dawgwhisperer]

Hey! That looks just like my cat! *L

It may look just like your cat, but I FEEL like this sometimes....

[Plenty Fox]

It may look just like your cat, but I FEEL like this sometimes....

Really? Well to me it is cute! So don't be so hard on yourself!!! *L

[Dawgwhisperer]

Really? Well to me it is cute! So don't be so hard on yourself!!! *L

Yep, I know......don't sweat the small stuff, etc. etc. ...... hahaha (smilies not workin' again).....most days I don't!

[kiiyaaniiasdzaa]

I though this movie was kinda cool. Saw alot of people I know. There is this one traditional dancer I always see. Was kinda funny to watch him wanting to trade for a white girl.

[Historian]

I went back a little through the thread and I'm just curious as to why you are concerned about WK being looked at as a tourist attraction by anyone here. I cannot believe that anyone that frequents this site (that I've "observed" so far) would look at it that way let alone set people up for a "photo op". Personally, I don't see how it could be construed as "your" grief when I already have deep regret and sorrow for all of the horrors that have been endured in general by OUR people. WK is surely one of the most prominent, but not the only event in history that has produced deep agony and pain. I'm not trying to offend you by my comments, but I don't feel like I need to be "advised" on how to conduct myself if I go there. I'm not speaking for anyone else, that's just me.

DawgWhisperer,
I understand Song Woman's (OlowanWi) comments. If you have ever been to Wounded Knee in the summer, you will see many tourists, and most bring ignorance at best, and many bring rude behavior. Since there are over 10,000 subscribers on this site, I can certainly understand Song Woman expressing herself in that way, as the information can be disseminated to a wide area very quickly, and may eventually reach a tourist or two. While it is true that the Wounded Knee Massacre is not the only event in history that has produced deep agony, it is a very personal grief for those who had family members killed or wounded there. Lastly, everyone needs to be humble enough to accept advise on how to conduct themselves at all sacred places. It's just common courtesy.

[goodgirl]

Well as a pure-t whitey, I have to give props to this series for getting me pretty interested in indian culture. I don't think I was really ignorant beforehand; most of the stuff in there was familiar to me, but I think because I noticed a few inaccuracies myself, I now want to learn more on my own.

My gut reaction to this, is it seemed a bit... maudlin? The main white characters were all so fuzzy-wuzzy toward Indians for the most part, and I just find that hard to believe in such a large family. Surely there would've been at least one "kill-em-all" type in there. And, probably, the same can be said of the Indians; most of the main characters were too 20th-century p.c. to really ring true to me.

I can't really bring myself to self-loathing for being white, esp. since most of my relatives weren't even in the States then. But I think the disturbing reality probably is, it could all happen again today... I can't really think of a perfect solution to the problem of how to found a great country like the U.S., while leaving the best land to the natives. It's horrible to say, even worse to think, but I bet a lot of white people saw Indian displacement as a necessary evil at worst. So I think a truly honest portrayal would reveal that feeling and try to deal with the conflict. If you're going to do a historical drama, I think you should be as accurate as possible.

Anyway, as I said I liked the miniseries for the most part, it was diverting summer viewing, but I think they missed a great opportunity to really foster greater understanding between our races. But I do appreciate the fact that it made me curious.

PS I'm a journalist and the journalists there reminded me kinda of a modern White House Briefing... haha. "here's reality, and here's the official statement. If you know what's good for you, you know what to write."

[Dawgwhisperer]

DawgWhisperer,
I understand Song Woman's (OlowanWi) comments. If you have ever been to Wounded Knee in the summer, you will see many tourists, and most bring ignorance at best, and many bring rude behavior. Since there are over 10,000 subscribers on this site, I can certainly understand Song Woman expressing herself in that way, as the information can be disseminated to a wide area very quickly, and may eventually reach a tourist or two. While it is true that the Wounded Knee Massacre is not the only event in history that has produced deep agony, it is a very personal grief for those who had family members killed or wounded there. Lastly, everyone needs to be humble enough to accept advise on how to conduct themselves at all sacred places. It's just common courtesy.

I'm not discounting the very personal grief of anyone who has lost family members, etc. in any event ndn or not. SW's statement that " it is not a tourist attraction, set up to educate you, or fulfill any kind of morbid curiousities" is part of what prompted me to respond. Educating people is the only way to change the ignorant. Ignorance is transcended over just about anything on the planet unfortunately.

Advising ignorant, disrespectful people how to act or change their behavior in a thread about a TV series is not realistic. Perhaps Song Woman would make more progress if she suggests to the people living around the site that they put up signs dictating appropriate behavior, or educate those that actually show up there. I don't know, maybe some of that already exists.

Believe me, I am humble enough to accept advise when it's warranted, but I stand by my comments. It's just the way I see it, further explanation implies that I don't understand it, which I do. Like I told you in an earlier post, I AM interested in knowledge and learning, which depends in part on information dissemination and not the ideal that history belongs to anyone or any group in particular. We're all one, at least that's what people keep saying. So, again I appreciate the things you've given me on this thread so far.