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Thanksgiving: Fact or Fiction

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  • Thanksgiving: Fact or Fiction

    by "Historian"

    In the minds of many Americans, when asked the question, “When was the United States first settled?”, frequently the reply will be, “in 1620 when the Pilgrims landed.” This so called “origin myth” has frequently been termed “the story of the first Thanksgiving” in many children’s books about the subject.

    However, beginning the story of America’s settlement with the Pilgrims at Plymouth Colony in 1620 leaves out not only the Native population, but also the Spanish, African and French as well. As a matter of fact, the very first "non-Indian" or "non-Native" settlers in this country know called the United States, were African slaves left in Georgia in 1526 by Spaniards who abandoned a settlement attempt.

    According to Jeannine Cook, in Columbus and the Land of Ayllón: The Exploration and Settlement of the Southeast published in 1992, in the summer of 1526, approximately five hundred Spanish colonists and one hundred African slaves, and perhaps some free African colonists, under the command of Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón, founded a settlement in America called San Miguel de Gualdape.

    The colonists had sailed from the Caribbean island of Hispaniola in July 1526 aboard six ships. In August, they had landed at Winyah Bay on the mouth of the Pedee River, in what is now South Carolina, near present-day Georgetown. However, they failed to find an Indian village, which they felt from past experience would be necessary for food until crops could be planted and harvested, so they sailed further southward. On what would later become the Georgia coast, Ayllón and his colonists found a village of Guale Indians and chose to settle nearby.

    Although physical remains of their settlement have not been found, historians and geographers have utilized surviving navigation logs and other records to reconstruct the 1526 voyage. Based on the latest research, the San Miguel de Gualdape settlement probably was situated on the mainland of what today is McIntosh County in Georgia, opposite Sapelo Sound. Disease and disputes with the local Guale Indian village caused many deaths in the settlement, and finally in November 1526, the African slaves rebelled, killed some of their Spaniard masters, and escaped to live with the local Guale tribe. By now only 150 Spaniards survived, so they evacuated back to Haiti. The former slaves elected to remain behind. Consequently, the first non-Native settlers in this country we now know as the United States, were Africans.

    In 1564, approximately 250 French Protestants or “Huguenots” as they were called, established a settlement on the St. John’s River near present-day Jacksonville, Florida calling it La Caroline, commanded by René Goulaine de Laudonniere. Then in August 1565, some 600 Spanish soldiers and settlers under Don Pedro Menéndez de Avilés came ashore at the site of a Timucuan Indian village, fortified the fledgling village and named it Saint Augustine.

    According to findings by Kathleen Teltsch, published in the New York Times in 1990 titled, Scholars and Descendants Uncover Hidden Legacy of Jews in Southwest, when the long arm of the Spanish Inquisition established itself in Mexico City, some Spanish Jews, called Sephardim in Hebrew, (the descendants of Jews whose ancestors lived on the Iberian Peninsula), fled with Don Juan de Oñate in 1598 and established permanent settlements in what is today New Mexico and Colorado.

    In addition, beginning the origin story in 1620 at Plymouth, Massachusetts, omits recognition of the first British settlement in Jamestown, Virginia in 1607, and also omits the Dutch, who were living in a settlement in what is now Albany, New York by 1614.

    Just before the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts Bay, a process started in Southern New England which would lay a foundation for the Plymouth Colony which was to come later.

    By 1617, British and French fishermen had been fishing off the Massachusetts coast for decades. After filling the hulls of the ships with Cod, they would go ashore to gather firewood and fresh water, and perhaps capture a few Native Indians to sell into slavery in Europe. It is now considered likely that these fishermen transmitted some illness to the Native population.

    The Plague which started escalating in the Southeastern coast of New England in 1617 made the “Black Plague” of 1348-1350, which killed an estimated 30% of the population of Europe, pale by comparison. Some Historians theorize the New England Plague was Bubonic, others suggest it was Viral Hepatitis or Influenza. In any event, within three years the New England Plague had wiped out close to 96% of the Native population of coastal New England. Native tribal societies were devastated. During the next fifteen years additional epidemics, most of which we now know to have been Smallpox, struck Native Indian populations repeatedly. John Winthrop, Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony at Plymouth beginning in 1629, called the Plague, “miraculous.”

    According to R. C. Winthrop in Life and Letters of John Winthrop, 2 volumes, 1864–67, Gov. John Winthrop wrote a close friend in England in 1634 saying,

    “But for the natives in these parts, God hath so pursued them, as for 300 miles space the greatest part of them are swept away by the Smallpox which still continues among them. So as God hath thereby cleared our title to this place, those who remain in these parts, being in all not 50, have put themselves under our protection...”

    The result of the Plague of 1617, which is said to have reduced the coastal Native tribes from 30,000 to approximately 300, helped to promote the myth of the legendary “warm reception” the Pilgrims enjoyed in 1620 from the Wampanoag Federation of tribes.

    In actuality, Massasoit (b. 1580, d. 1661) of the Pokanoket tribe, and leader or Grand Sachem of the Wampanoag Federation, was eager to ally with the Pilgrims that arrived in 1620 because the plague had so weakened his villages, that he feared the stronger Narragansett Federation of tribes in Rhode Island and the Tarratine Federation of tribes in Maine, that would likely take advantage of the situation. Especially since war had broken out between the Tarratines and the Penobscots in 1615. When Nanapashamet, the Grand Sachem of the eleven villages of the Massachusett Federation of tribes offered help to the Penobscots, the Tarratines of Maine hunted him down and killed him in 1619.

    Keep in mind that the Massachusett Federation of tribes, around what is now Boston Harbor, had been powerful enough to drive off Samuel de Champlain and his men when they tried to settle in Massachusetts in 1606, and in 1607 the Abenaki tribes successfully expelled the first Plymouth Company settlement from the coast of Maine. However, by the time the Native populations of Southeastern New England had replenished themselves to some degree, after so many being killed by Plagues in 1617, it was too late to expel the new European intruders.

    Another point important to note is that the Separatist Puritans on the Mayflower, later known as Pilgrims, numbered only 35 out of the 102 settlers on board. The other 67 persons on board were ordinary folk seeking their fortunes in the new Colony at Jamestown, Virginia. Why the Mayflower never arrived in Virginia, but ended up in Massachusetts Bay, is still up to debate. The “origin myth” states that the Mayflower was blown off course. However, a great majority of Historians now believe that the Dutch bribed the Mayflower’s captain and part owner, Christopher Jones, to sail north so the Pilgrims would not settle near their settlement of New Amsterdam, now known as New York City.

    It is further believed that Massachusetts Bay was then chosen as a good site because of the known absence of Native Indians, as a result of the Plague three years earlier, in addition to the good fishing known to be off Cape Cod. In fact, John Smith had studied the Massachusetts Bay area previously in 1614 and he published the result of his explorations on his land and coastal survey in a guidebook called A Description of New England printed in London in 1616. The guidebook included a map drawn by Smith himself, of the land he named New England. A guidebook one of the 35 Pilgrims carried with them on the Mayflower. (note: A rare copy of this book was recently purchased at Sotheby’s Auction in New York in 1999 for $211,500.)

    Despite having ended up many miles from other European settlements, the Pilgrims hardly “started from scratch in a wilderness” as the “origin myth” would have us believe.

    Throughout Southern New England, Native Indian tribes had repeatedly burned the underbrush, creating a park-like environment. After first landing at the tip of Cape Cod in what is now Provincetown, Massachusetts, the Pilgrims assembled a boat for exploring and began looking around for a site for their new home. They chose Plymouth perhaps because of it’s beautifully cleared fields, recently planted with corn, it’s sheltered harbor, and a brook of fresh water nearby. It was a great site for a town, because before the Plague of 1617, this had been Squanto’s village of the Patuxet tribe.

    The new Plymouth colonists did not encounter a "wilderness." In fact, in Three Visitors To Early Plymouth: Letters about the Pilgrim Settlement in New England During its First Seven Years by John Pory, Emmanuel Altham, and Isaack deRasieres, edited by Sydney V. James, Plymouth colonist Emmanuel Altham noted in a letter in 1622 that,

    “In this bay wherein we live, in former time, hath lived about two thousand Indians.”


    "Be good, be kind, help each other."
    "Respect the ground, respect the drum, respect each other."

    --Abe Conklin, Ponca/Osage (1926-1995)

  • #2
    Part 2

    In addition, the colonists received help and support from sources not fully known by the majority of Americans today. In his sailor’s journal, written by a colonist on his second full day in Plymouth, Massachusetts, and published in the work done in 1901 by Azel Ames titled, The Mayflower and Her Log, July 15, 1620-May 6, 1621, Edward Winslow writes of he and a companion, saying,

    “...we marched to the place where we had the corn formerly, which place we called Cornhill, and digged and found the rest, of which we were very glad. We also digged in a place a little further off, and found a bottle of oil. We went to another place which we had seen before, and digged, and found more corn, viz. Two or three baskets full of Indian wheat, and a bag of beans, with a good many of fair wheat ears. Whilst some of us were digging up this, some others found another heap of corn, which they digged up also, so as we had in all about ten bushels, which will serve us sufficiently for seed”.... “The next morning we followed certain beaten paths and tracks of the Indians into the woods, supposing they would have led us into some town, or houses”.... “When we had marched five or six miles into the woods and could find no signs of any people, we returned again another way, and as we came into the plain ground we found a place like a grave, but it was much bigger and longer than any we had yet seen. It was also covered with boards, so as we mused what it should be, and resolved to dig it up, where we found, first a mat, and under that a fair bow”..... “Also between the mats we found bowls, trays, dishes, and such like trinkets. At length we came to a fair new mat, and under that two bundles, the one bigger, the other less. We opened the greater and found in it a great quantity of fine and perfect red powder, and in it the bones and skull of a man”.... “We brought sundry of the prettiest things away with us, and covered the corpse up again. After this, we digged in sundry like places, but found no more corn, nor any thing else but graves.”

    In Karen Ordahl Kupperman’s book, Settling with the Indians: The Meeting of English and Indian Cultures in America, 1580-1640, published in London by J. M. Dent in 1980, she states that the Pilgrims continued to rob graves for years. However, more help came to the Pilgrims from an even more unlikely source named Squanto, also known as Tisquantum.

    In the “origin myth,” Squanto was a solitary member of the Pautuxet tribe, part of the Wampanoag Federation of tribes, who had supposedly learned English from fisherman, and as a “God sent savior”, taught the Pilgrims how to hunt and fish in the new wilderness, which helped them survive their first winter in New England.

    According to Sir Ferdinando Gorges, a leader of the Plymouth Company in England, around 1605 a British Captain stole Squanto from Massachusetts when he was still a boy, along with four members of the Penobscot tribe, and took them to England. There Squanto spent nine years, three of them in the employ of Sir Ferdinando Gorges. After which, in 1614, he arranged for Squanto to be returned to Massachusetts.

    Later in 1614, after skirmishing against and then making peace with the Patuxets, John Smith returned to England, leaving a second ship to fish for cod under the command of one Thomas Hunt. Luring Squanto and about twenty other Wampanoags on board, Hunt kidnapped them and then seized about seven others on Cape Cod before sailing for Málaga, Spain. There Hunt began selling his captives as slaves until some priests intervened and redeemed the rest, including Squanto, in hopes of converting them to Christianity. Squanto's movements are unclear for the next three years until 1617, by which time he had somehow managed to get to London. Living in the home of John Slany, the treasurer of the Newfoundland Company, Squanto became immersed in the English language and culture, and he began to see in the colonial ambitions of Slany and his associates the means by which he could return home.

    Squanto's plans moved closer to realization when, on an expedition to Newfoundland, he became reacquainted with Thomas Dermer, an officer under John Smith in 1614. Like Smith, Dermer had left Patuxet before the fateful kidnapping. Dermer took Squanto back to his former employer, Sir Ferdinando Gorges, then the most determined colonizer of New England. Although he had already failed in several attempts to use kidnapped Indians to advance his endeavors, Gorges was persuaded by Squanto's evident knowledge of the region, his apparent standing among his people, and his professed loyalty. So with Thomas Dermer at the helm, Squanto finally sailed for Massachusetts in the spring of 1619.

    Now Squanto set foot again in Massachusetts and walked to his home village of Patuxet, only to make the horrifying discovery that he was the sole member of his village left alive. All others having perished in the Plague epidemic two years earlier.

    By the winter of 1620, struggling to survive, half the unprepared Plymouth colonists succumbed to starvation and disease during the harsh winter. Finally in March of 1621, members of the Pokanoket and Nemasket tribe convinced Samoset, a visiting Abenaki with ties to English traders, to sound out the beleaguered colonists. Finding them receptive, Samoset returned a few days later with Squanto, whose knowledge of the English and their language exceeded his own.

    As translator, ambassador and technical advisor, Squanto was essential to the survival of the Plymouth Colony in it’s first two years. In the book edited by Samuel Morrison in 1981 titled Of Plymouth Plantation: 1620-1647 the first Governor of Plymouth Colony, William Bradford called Squanto,

    “...a special instrument sent of God for our good beyond expectation. He directed us how to set our corn, where to take fish, and to procure other commodities, and was also our pilot to bring us to unknown places for our profit.”

    Their “profit” was the primary reason most Mayflower colonists made the trip. Contrary to the myth, religious freedom was only a secondary motive. Squanto was not the only advisor for the Pilgrims either. As critical as he was to Plymouth's fortunes, Squanto's usefulness was limited because he had no power base among the remaining Wampanoags or other local natives. In the summer of 1621 the colony invited a second Indian, a Pokanoket named Hobbamock, to live among them, and he stayed for several years serving as a guide and ambassador. In fact, Hobbamock helped the Plymouth colonists to set up fur trading posts at the mouth of the Penobscot and Kennebec rivers in Maine, along the Aptucxet River in Massachusetts, and along the Windsor River in Connecticut.

    All this brings us to Thanksgiving. The Pilgrims did not introduce the Fall Harvest Thanksgiving Ceremony.

    Northeastern tribes had observed autumnal harvest celebrations for centuries. However, in the Fall of 1621, the Governor of the Plymouth Colony, William Bradford, decided to have a harvest thanksgiving celebration of his own and invited Massasoit, the Grand Sachem of the Wampanoag Federation to come as a guest. Massasoit arrived on the appointed day with ninety warriors, and gifts of more food, including items such as deer, lobster, clams, oysters, smoked eel, smoked cod fish, corn, squash, wild plums, wild grapes and maple syrup. The Wampanoags remained at Plymouth for three days and the celebration continued for several more days after they left.

    When the next great wave of Puritans settled in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1630, there was such a shortage of food, that the new Governor, John Winthrop, sent one of the ships back to England to purchase as much food as possible. When it returned in February 1631, Governor Winthrop ordered a day of Thanksgiving to be celebrated by all the settlements in the colony. The first such celebration to be held in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in ten years since 1621.

    Other than in Plymouth, Massachusetts, where they were held as a local custom every year from 1631 on, thanksgiving celebrations were held sporadically in the European colonies in America during the 1600s and 1700s. During the American Revolution, the Continental Congress recommended that each of the colonies observe a day of thanksgiving every year, and when George Washington later became President, he proclaimed November 26th to be a National Day of Thanksgiving. However, the custom fell into disuse in a short time, and the States that did observe an annual thanksgiving day celebration, did so on a day that best suited them, although they all observed it in the Month of November.

    During the Civil War in 1863, when President Lincoln felt that the Union needed all the patriotism that such as observance might muster, he proclaimed Thanksgiving a National Holiday to be observed on the last Thursday in November. However, the Pilgrims and Plymouth Colony were not included in the celebrations at that time. It would not be until the 1890s that the Pilgrims were included in the celebration traditions. In fact, Americans did not even use the term Pilgrim until the 1870s.

    Lastly, it is interesting to note that some historians believe that Thanksgiving became such an important holiday in the New England States because the Pilgrims and the Puritans wanted a festival to replace the Christmas Holiday that they had refused to recognize or observe, and which was banned outright in the 1640s. Although this may have been the case in the early years, both holidays became important to most New Englanders after Christmas became a legal national holiday in the United States in 1856.

    Last edited by Historian; 11-24-2008, 01:35 PM.

    "Be good, be kind, help each other."
    "Respect the ground, respect the drum, respect each other."

    --Abe Conklin, Ponca/Osage (1926-1995)


    • #3
      Part 3 (End)


      Addison, Albert Christopher.
      1911. The Romantic Story of the Mayflower Pilgrims. L. C. Page & Company: Boston, MA.

      Ames, MD, Azel.
      1901. The Mayflower and Her Log: July 15, 1620 - May 6, 1621. Houghton, Mifflin & Company: Boston, MA.

      Anderson, Virginia Dejohn.
      1993. Migrants and Motives: Religion and the Settlement of New England, 1630-1640 in Katz, ed. Colonial America. McGraw-Hill, Inc.: New York, NY.

      Bercovitch, Sacvan.
      1986. A Library of American Puritan Writings. Volume 9 - The Seventeenth Century. Ams Press, Inc.: New York, NY.

      Bradford, William. Samuel Eliot Morrison, ed.
      1981. Of Plymouth Plantation 1620-1647. McGraw-Hill: New York, NY.

      Cook, Jeannine. ed.
      1992. Columbus and the Land of Ayllón: The Exploration and Settlement of the Southeast. University of Georgia Press, Darien, GA.

      Davis, William T.
      1883. Ancient Landmarks of Plymouth. A. Williams and Company: Boston, MA.

      Deetz, James.
      1996. In Small Things Forgotten: An Archaeology of Early American Life. Anchor Books Doubleday: New York, NY.

      Garvan, Anthony N. B.
      1951. Architecture and Town Planning in Colonial Connecticut. Yale University Press: New Haven, CT.

      Greene, Jack P.
      1988. Pursuits of Happiness: The Social Development of Early Modern British Colonies and the Formation of American Culture. The University of North Carolina Press: Chapel Hill, NC.

      Heath, Dwight B.
      1963. Mourt's Relation: A Journal of the Pilgrims at Plymouth. Corinth Books: New York, NY.

      Hume, Ivor N.
      1969. Historical Archaeology. Alfred A. Knopf: New York, NY.

      Kupperman, Karen Ordahl.
      1980. Settling with the Indians: The Meeting of English and Indian Cultures in America, 1580-1640, J. M. Dent: London. (Reprint 2000) as Indians and English: Facing Off in Early America. Cornell University Press)

      Perkins, Frank H.
      1947. Handbook of Old Burial Hill Plymouth Massachussetts. Rogers Print, Inc.: Plymouth, MA.

      Pory, John, Emmanuel Altham, Isaack deRasieres, edited by Sydney V. James.
      1963 (Reprint 1997). Three Visitors To Early Plymouth: Letters about the Pilgrim Settlement in New England During its First Seven Years. Applewood Books, Plymouth, MA.

      Simmons, R. C.
      1976. The American Colonies: From Settlement to Independence. W. W. Norton & Company: New York, NY.

      Smith, John.
      1971. Advertisements for the Planters of New England. Theatrum Orbis Terrarum Ltd.: Amsterdam.

      Young, Alexander.
      1841. Chronicles of the Pilgrim Fathers of the Colony of Plymouth: from 1602 to 1625. C. C. Little and J. Brown: Boston, MA.

      Teltsch, Kathleen.
      1990. Scholars and Descendants Uncover Hidden Legacy of Jews in Southwest in New York Times (Sunday, 11 Nov 1990, p. 30), New York, NY.

      Winthrop, Robert Charles. ed.
      1864 and 1867 (Reprint 1971). Life and Letters of John Winthrop. Vols. 1-2, Boston, MA.
      Last edited by Historian; 11-24-2008, 01:31 PM.

      "Be good, be kind, help each other."
      "Respect the ground, respect the drum, respect each other."

      --Abe Conklin, Ponca/Osage (1926-1995)


      • #4
        interesting, mr. smithers!


        • #5
          Native Cooking
          Posted: November 22, 2005
          by: Dale Carson / Indian Country Today

          For it or against it, it happens. T-Day, Turkey-Day, the national holiday in November; all right - Thanksgiving. Thanksgivings are nothing new to Native people. The pilgrims who made it through the winter of 1621, with major help from Massasoit and the Wampanoag people, fashioned this gathering after their non-religious harvest celebrations in England after a bountiful year.

          The Wampanoag, like most American Indian nations, celebrated several thanksgiving festivals throughout the year. There was ''maple sugar thanksgiving,'' ''strawberry thanksgiving,'' ''green corn thanksgiving'' and ''cranberry thanksgiving,'' just to name a few.

          Apparently, the colonists' crop harvest the following year, 1622, was not very good. There is no record of a thanksgiving festival until the next year. In 1623, they held a religious thanksgiving to thank God for rain after a long drought. These facts, along with many others, come from books published by Plimouth Plantation, a living history museum in Massachusetts.

          Like any story that is told and retold, it is bound to change character and, somewhere along the line, become a myth. For example, the separatists - not yet calling themselves ''Pilgrims'' - did not dress in black and wear big buckles on their clothes. The Wampanoag people were neither scraggy nor lurking about. However, artists of the 18th and 19th centuries drew their dramatic scenes from misconceptions about both the colonists and the Wampanoag.

          Later thanksgiving celebrations seemed to coincide with colonial military victories over Native people: in 1637, just after the burning of the Pequot fort by Capt. John Mason and his forces during the Pequot War; another in 1676, after the death of King Philip (Metacom), Massasoit's son, which ended King Philip's War; and in 1777, with a national celebration of the victory against the British at Saratoga during the Revolutionary War. In 1846, Sara Josepha Hale sought support for a national thanksgiving holiday, which President Lincoln declared in 1863. So there it is: we can take it or leave it. On the plus side, it is a family gathering, and family is more important than just about anything.

          An old friend, Jim Roaix, gave me permission to share this recipe he concocted. He is known for making incredibly good dishes and neglecting to write the recipe down. This one he calls a ''non-traditional yet traditional'' holiday meal.

          1-1/2 cups wild rice
          6 oz. craisins
          2 cups water
          3 cups apple juice, divided
          12 1/2-inch-thick turkey cutlets
          1 teaspoon nutmeg

          Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Bring the water and 2 cups of the apple juice to a boil, then reduce heat to simmer. Add the wild rice and craisins, and cook, covered, for 50 minutes. Place the turkey cutlets in a single row (like fallen dominoes) down the center of a lightly oiled 9- by 13-inch glass pan and spoon the wild rice mix along both sides. Since most of the liquid from the rice will cook away, pour the remaining cup of apple juice over the rice on both sides of the turkey. Grate fresh nutmeg over the turkey. Cook for 1 hour, 15 minutes. Serves eight.

          Personal Stuffing
          1 large package of herbed stuffing mix
          2 eggs
          2 cans chicken broth

          You can follow the package's recipe; or to make it your own, separate the stuffing into two or three bowls and try these variations. For one, add chopped onion, some raisins, chopped celery and sage. For another, add chopped, cooked chestnuts; parsley; thyme; and golden raisins. For a third variety, add onion, dried sage, mushrooms, stale cornbread and apple chunks.

          Persimmon Pudding
          1 cup persimmon pulp
          2 eggs
          3/4 cup milk
          1/4 cup melted butter
          1 teaspoon vanilla
          2 cups all-purpose flour
          1 cup sugar
          1/2 teaspoon baking powder
          1 teaspoon cinnamon
          Pinch of salt

          Preheat the oven to 325 degrees. In a small bowl combine the eggs, pulp, milk, butter and vanilla. In a separate, larger bowl sift together flour, sugar, baking soda, cinnamon and salt. Add the wet mixture into the dry ingredients and stir well. Pour all into a greased

          1-quart baking dish and bake for 45 minutes or until firm. Serve with whipped cream.

          Notes & Tips

          * Our family is large, but large turkeys takes too long to cook. We find that two smaller ones, like two 10-pounders or one 10- to 12-pounder and a 6- to 7-pound breast, work better.

          * The holidays are a great time to get out the slow cookers: a small one for keeping gravy hot, one for mashed potatoes, another for squash or other side dish and so on ... Be creative, since they are so versatile. Are lots of people expected? Use lots of warming trays, etc.

          "Be good, be kind, help each other."
          "Respect the ground, respect the drum, respect each other."

          --Abe Conklin, Ponca/Osage (1926-1995)


          • #6
            VERY interesting!
   is what it is...


            • #7
              This is a big eye-opener for me. I enjoyed reading this.
              Never Hurt The Heart That Luvs You


              • #8
                I love persimmons. Thank you for the recipe.
                "The Cleveland Indians are going to change their name. They don't want to be known as a team that perpetuates racial stereotypes. From now on they're just going to be called the Indians." - Native Comedian Vaughn Eaglebear, Colville/Lakota


                • #9
                  You're welcome.

                  "Be good, be kind, help each other."
                  "Respect the ground, respect the drum, respect each other."

                  --Abe Conklin, Ponca/Osage (1926-1995)


                  • #10
                    Could you please tell me what persimmon pulp is and where I can find it?



                    • #11

                      Originally posted by prancing deer
                      Could you please tell me what persimmon pulp is and where I can find it?

                      The only way I know is go to the woods and find the trees with persimmons, but don't gather the ones on the trees still, cause they'll pucker your mouth! (alum)

                      Pick up the ones on the ground and take them home, clean them off, and start mushing them to get the seeds out. I use a colander to push the pulp through (if you have young ones at home, maybe they'll do it). There are less trees available around here every year due to construction. I have seen big persimmons (Japanese?) in the gro store, but they didn't have any taste to me.
                      Dance together.


                      • #12
                        This person does their Homework.....

                        Historian without a doubt lives up to that title.....
                        "She also has a very soft skin. The only trouble with snake women is they copulate with horses, which makes them strange to me. She say's she doesn't. That's why I call her "Doesn't Like Horses". But, of course, she's lying."


                        • #13
                          Yep, that was a good reading!


                          ...that's so, so true...


                          • #14
                            This show looks interesting: Desperate Crossing - the untold story of the Mayflower.

                            It will be on the History channel on Sunday, 8pm Eastern, 7pm Central, 6 pm Mt.

                            The preview was telling how they stole food and stuff. Might be worth a watch.
                   is what it is...


                            • #15
                              I watched it last night

                              I watched “Desperate Crossing: the Untold Story of the Mayflower” last night on the History Channel. They actually did go into a lot of the facts that brought up here, including the story of Squanto (Tisquantum) and the English digging up corn that didn’t belong to them etc...


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