Cheroenhaka Nottoway

[Kiss_My_Grits!!]

this brings up a new question, how can a tribe be truely soverign if we have to beg permission to exist and follow laws implimented by an outside entity?

tribes can only have casinos after the US government gives the ok,

ndn people can have eagle feathers if they have a permit from the feds

the feds hold our lands in trust

the feds hold (and 'misplace' )our monies in trust

and the list goes on and on.

Part of me says that sovereignty just exists. Much like the air we breath, it is just there. But that is a very idealistic view and not grounded in reality. The truth of the matter is, in order to be recognized as a soveriegn entity, you have to be recognized.

As an example, Tibet is viewed by some as being a seperate and sovereign entity but to most people of the world, they are not. If I moved to Russia, bought thousands and thousands of acres, and then proceeded to declare myself and the land sovereign, do you think people would recognize those claims? Would my citizens be afforded protection if they wandered across our border? Could I establish international trade agreements with another sovereign entity? Would I be successful in establishing a foreign embassy in Washington D.C.?

[Renegade]

Flutemaker, you are correct the list goes on and on and on

Dancingeagle: Yes your wife is British American, just like a black person is African American, and a Jew is Jewish American. Why are English the only people who do not have to have a qualifier in front of American. They are just the pure Americans and all of the rest of us have to be qualified. Sorry, dude but I think they brainwashed you on this one. To take it to the next level, since the United States is an illegal entity, none of these people are American, thus your wife is just British. And it will be a fine day when they all go home!!

In regards to who is Indian and who is not this is very complex. I was in a debate last month with some people from South American who claimed that bloodline does not matter. If one is not 100% living in the traditional ways, as some of the Indians in South American and Mexico, then you are not Indian. This is why most Mexican’s don’t consider themselves Indian. By this definition there are no Indians in the US. But it is more complex than this. However, there is a simply answer. In life we all use our senses to determine what something is. A duck is a duck because we look at it and see a duck. He can claim to be a cat all he wants but if we see a duck then it is a duck. If it looks like a duck, walks like duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck, then it is a duck. Today most people, Indian, white or black are mixed. But we categorize based upon our senses. So people who have a significant degree of Indian ancestry, look Indian, have Indian cultural and social aspects are Indian. Most of the people claiming Nottoway fit this criteria.

[Renegade]

Kiss my grits:

I think you are on to something. As we build and rebuild the tribal civilization the Industrial Authoritarian civilization becomes a moot point and collapses under its own weight. So yes, “sovereignty just exists. Much like the air we breath, it is just there. But that is a very idealistic view and not grounded in reality. The truth of the matter is, in order to be recognized as a sovereign entity, you have to be recognized.”

There is a lot that is happening in our world that most people are not aware of. The world is undergoing the greatest social transition in history, driven by information technology. The good news is that the civilization being created as part of the transition is a tribal civilization based upon natural laws. So to move into the future perhaps one does not need recognition but to survive today perhaps one does.

[FluteMaker]

Would I be successful in establishing a foreign embassy in Washington D.C.?

hey, why not? i live here in DC and it seems like just sbout everyone else has an embasy.


what i meant was how can a nation be soverign if they have to follow another nations laws? like the us is a soverign nation,and canada is a soverign nation, but canada isnt run by us laws. canada doesnt ask permission of the us to open casinos or to dedicate land within its own borders for its own uses. the us certainly doesnt hold funds in trust for canada. mexico either.
for true soverignty does there also have to be true self determination too? in addition to internation standing

[Blackbear]

what i meant was how can a nation be soverign if they have to follow another nations laws? like the us is a soverign nation,and canada is a soverign nation, but canada isnt run by us laws. canada doesnt ask permission of the us to open casinos or to dedicate land within its own borders for its own uses. the us certainly doesnt hold funds in trust for canada. mexico either.
for true soverignty does there also have to be true self determination too? in addition to internation standing

Because the Cheroenhaka are'nt a nation, they are tribe. The definitions below should help you understand it better.

na·tion (nshn)
n.
1.
a. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
b. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
2. The government of a sovereign state.
3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: "Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity" Robert Conquest.
4.
a. A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
b. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.

tribe (trb)
n.
1. A unit of sociopolitical organization consisting of a number of families, clans, or other groups who share a common ancestry and culture and among whom leadership is typically neither formalized nor permanent.
2. A political, ethnic, or ancestral division of ancient states and cultures, especially:
a. Any of the three divisions of the ancient Romans, namely, the Latin, Sabine, and Etruscan.
b. Any of the 12 divisions of ancient Israel.
c. A phyle of ancient Greece.
3. A group of people sharing an occupation, interest, or habit: a tribe of graduate students.
4. Informal A large family.
5. Biology A taxonomic category placed between a subfamily and a genus or between a suborder and a family and usually containing several genera.

[FluteMaker]

i can buy that. some times websters is a bit more rational than the us government. but heres a new twist... on another web page i saw a news article about a lipan apache guy who was taking the fish and wildlife service to court asking for his eagle feathers back, since the lipan had been terminated he lost his "right" to posses eagle feathers and some undercover guy at a powwow busted him and took the feathers.question is, regardless of quantum, since his people got terminated does that mean he is no longer ndn and his people are no longer a tribe or nation?

[Kiss_My_Grits!!]

i can buy that. some times websters is a bit more rational than the us government. but heres a new twist... on another web page i saw a news article about a lipan apache guy who was taking the fish and wildlife service to court asking for his eagle feathers back, since the lipan had been terminated he lost his "right" to posses eagle feathers and some undercover guy at a powwow busted him and took the feathers.question is, regardless of quantum, since his people got terminated does that mean he is no longer ndn and his people are no longer a tribe or nation?

Were the Menominee no longer a tribe when they were terminated? Did they cease to be Indian? Did the magically become Indian again when they tribe was re-recognized?

I don't believe that you have to be enrolled to be Indian nor do I believe you have to have federal recognition to be considered a tribe or nation. I know too many fullbloods who are ineligible to enroll in a tribe, too many people who are 63/64 Indian who are of multiple tribes so their kids can't enroll. I also know there are legitimate tribes caught up in federal government bureaucracy that are struggling to obtain fed rec.

But I do believe you have to be recognized by an established community. I think this is true whether it is an individual or community level. I know some federally recognized tribes acknowledge their nonfederally recognized cousins such as the Miami of OK and the Miami of IN but from the Apaches I know, many don't acknowledge the Lipan.

[FluteMaker]

now we get into the question of which community? so far lots of people on this thread do seem to feel these nottoway people are not on the level but im sure if you ask the nottoway group itself they'll tell you that theyre as real as real gets.
i dont see a problem with people of a like heritage coming together, but who is it that gets to grant them a positive light?
i dont know any of these nottoway people so i cant tell you anything about them, although the chick blessing the creek was kinda creepy, but just becaues lots of us dont see them as legit that doesnt mean others dont. know what i mean? which ndn community? and has the ndn counter culture officially begun?