Cheroenhaka Nottoway

[FluteMaker]

now we get into the question of which community? so far lots of people on this thread do seem to feel these nottoway people are not on the level but im sure if you ask the nottoway group itself they'll tell you that theyre as real as real gets.
i dont see a problem with people of a like heritage coming together, but who is it that gets to grant them a positive light?
i dont know any of these nottoway people so i cant tell you anything about them, although the chick blessing the creek was kinda creepy, but just becaues lots of us dont see them as legit that doesnt mean others dont. know what i mean? which ndn community? and has the ndn counter culture officially begun?

[Kiss_My_Grits!!]

i can buy that. some times websters is a bit more rational than the us government. but heres a new twist... on another web page i saw a news article about a lipan apache guy who was taking the fish and wildlife service to court asking for his eagle feathers back, since the lipan had been terminated he lost his "right" to posses eagle feathers and some undercover guy at a powwow busted him and took the feathers.question is, regardless of quantum, since his people got terminated does that mean he is no longer ndn and his people are no longer a tribe or nation?

Were the Menominee no longer a tribe when they were terminated? Did they cease to be Indian? Did the magically become Indian again when they tribe was re-recognized?

I don't believe that you have to be enrolled to be Indian nor do I believe you have to have federal recognition to be considered a tribe or nation. I know too many fullbloods who are ineligible to enroll in a tribe, too many people who are 63/64 Indian who are of multiple tribes so their kids can't enroll. I also know there are legitimate tribes caught up in federal government bureaucracy that are struggling to obtain fed rec.

But I do believe you have to be recognized by an established community. I think this is true whether it is an individual or community level. I know some federally recognized tribes acknowledge their nonfederally recognized cousins such as the Miami of OK and the Miami of IN but from the Apaches I know, many don't acknowledge the Lipan.

[FluteMaker]

i can buy that. some times websters is a bit more rational than the us government. but heres a new twist... on another web page i saw a news article about a lipan apache guy who was taking the fish and wildlife service to court asking for his eagle feathers back, since the lipan had been terminated he lost his "right" to posses eagle feathers and some undercover guy at a powwow busted him and took the feathers.question is, regardless of quantum, since his people got terminated does that mean he is no longer ndn and his people are no longer a tribe or nation?

[Blackbear]

what i meant was how can a nation be soverign if they have to follow another nations laws? like the us is a soverign nation,and canada is a soverign nation, but canada isnt run by us laws. canada doesnt ask permission of the us to open casinos or to dedicate land within its own borders for its own uses. the us certainly doesnt hold funds in trust for canada. mexico either.
for true soverignty does there also have to be true self determination too? in addition to internation standing

Because the Cheroenhaka are'nt a nation, they are tribe. The definitions below should help you understand it better.

na·tion (nshn)
n.
1.
a. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
b. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
2. The government of a sovereign state.
3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: "Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity" Robert Conquest.
4.
a. A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
b. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.

tribe (trb)
n.
1. A unit of sociopolitical organization consisting of a number of families, clans, or other groups who share a common ancestry and culture and among whom leadership is typically neither formalized nor permanent.
2. A political, ethnic, or ancestral division of ancient states and cultures, especially:
a. Any of the three divisions of the ancient Romans, namely, the Latin, Sabine, and Etruscan.
b. Any of the 12 divisions of ancient Israel.
c. A phyle of ancient Greece.
3. A group of people sharing an occupation, interest, or habit: a tribe of graduate students.
4. Informal A large family.
5. Biology A taxonomic category placed between a subfamily and a genus or between a suborder and a family and usually containing several genera.

[FluteMaker]

Would I be successful in establishing a foreign embassy in Washington D.C.?

hey, why not? i live here in DC and it seems like just sbout everyone else has an embasy.


what i meant was how can a nation be soverign if they have to follow another nations laws? like the us is a soverign nation,and canada is a soverign nation, but canada isnt run by us laws. canada doesnt ask permission of the us to open casinos or to dedicate land within its own borders for its own uses. the us certainly doesnt hold funds in trust for canada. mexico either.
for true soverignty does there also have to be true self determination too? in addition to internation standing

[Renegade]

Kiss my grits:

I think you are on to something. As we build and rebuild the tribal civilization the Industrial Authoritarian civilization becomes a moot point and collapses under its own weight. So yes, “sovereignty just exists. Much like the air we breath, it is just there. But that is a very idealistic view and not grounded in reality. The truth of the matter is, in order to be recognized as a sovereign entity, you have to be recognized.”

There is a lot that is happening in our world that most people are not aware of. The world is undergoing the greatest social transition in history, driven by information technology. The good news is that the civilization being created as part of the transition is a tribal civilization based upon natural laws. So to move into the future perhaps one does not need recognition but to survive today perhaps one does.

[Renegade]

Flutemaker, you are correct the list goes on and on and on

Dancingeagle: Yes your wife is British American, just like a black person is African American, and a Jew is Jewish American. Why are English the only people who do not have to have a qualifier in front of American. They are just the pure Americans and all of the rest of us have to be qualified. Sorry, dude but I think they brainwashed you on this one. To take it to the next level, since the United States is an illegal entity, none of these people are American, thus your wife is just British. And it will be a fine day when they all go home!!

In regards to who is Indian and who is not this is very complex. I was in a debate last month with some people from South American who claimed that bloodline does not matter. If one is not 100% living in the traditional ways, as some of the Indians in South American and Mexico, then you are not Indian. This is why most Mexican’s don’t consider themselves Indian. By this definition there are no Indians in the US. But it is more complex than this. However, there is a simply answer. In life we all use our senses to determine what something is. A duck is a duck because we look at it and see a duck. He can claim to be a cat all he wants but if we see a duck then it is a duck. If it looks like a duck, walks like duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck, then it is a duck. Today most people, Indian, white or black are mixed. But we categorize based upon our senses. So people who have a significant degree of Indian ancestry, look Indian, have Indian cultural and social aspects are Indian. Most of the people claiming Nottoway fit this criteria.

[Kiss_My_Grits!!]

this brings up a new question, how can a tribe be truely soverign if we have to beg permission to exist and follow laws implimented by an outside entity?

tribes can only have casinos after the US government gives the ok,

ndn people can have eagle feathers if they have a permit from the feds

the feds hold our lands in trust

the feds hold (and 'misplace' )our monies in trust

and the list goes on and on.

Part of me says that sovereignty just exists. Much like the air we breath, it is just there. But that is a very idealistic view and not grounded in reality. The truth of the matter is, in order to be recognized as a soveriegn entity, you have to be recognized.

As an example, Tibet is viewed by some as being a seperate and sovereign entity but to most people of the world, they are not. If I moved to Russia, bought thousands and thousands of acres, and then proceeded to declare myself and the land sovereign, do you think people would recognize those claims? Would my citizens be afforded protection if they wandered across our border? Could I establish international trade agreements with another sovereign entity? Would I be successful in establishing a foreign embassy in Washington D.C.?

[DANCINGEAGLE]

Dancingeagle:

What I am speaking of is the original topic. It was the topic before this thread was started and before you joined powwow.com and before were born and before your parents and grandparents were born all the way back to 1492.

How do you define a real tribe? I can assure you it not what we called tribes prior to 1492. Name me some tribes in the US that operate based upon true tribal principals? In fact name me some true tribal organizing principals? Most Indians no long even know what true tribal principals are. It is easy to call oneself a tribe, or to be recognized by white people as tribes. But what do white people know about tribes. Some people say that the Federally recognized Indians on the rez are the real tribes. But reservations were created to kill tribalism and Indianism. So is this the place to look to see what a true tribe is? This is not a criticism of tribes or tribes on reservations but a statement of sad fact. How many tribes still operate on the principals of tribalism and how many are just Industrial Age bureaucracies? There is a lot of confusion regarding what tribalism is and many Indians themselves are confused.

Knowing the Nottoway personally, I can say that they are as tribal as any other Indian people. I say what I am speaking of, that you are trying to ignore, is the original issue. And much of what it being written on this thread is pure speculation out of ignorance. I do NOT agree with how the Nottoway has approached reorganization!! But everyone must chose their own path and accept the consequences of that path. I can say, based upon personal knowledge, that the Nottoway have "significant" Nottoway Indian ancestry.

You keep mentioning 1492. In 1492, Columbus was lost at sea. The history books don't mention that.

However, is it ancestery or true bloodline? My wife's ancesters were from Britain, but, that does not make her British. The bloodline has been weened out. So, there is a difference.

[FluteMaker]

Dancingeagle:

What I am speaking of is the original topic. It was the topic before this thread was started and before you joined powwow.com and before were born and before your parents and grandparents were born all the way back to 1492.

How do you define a real tribe? I can assure you it not what we called tribes prior to 1492. Name me some tribes in the US that operate based upon true tribal principals? In fact name me some true tribal organizing principals? Most Indians no long even know what true tribal principals are. It is easy to call oneself a tribe, or to be recognized by white people as tribes. But what do white people know about tribes. Some people say that the Federally recognized Indians on the rez are the real tribes. But reservations were created to kill tribalism and Indianism. So is this the place to look to see what a true tribe is? This is not a criticism of tribes or tribes on reservations but a statement of sad fact. How many tribes still operate on the principals of tribalism and how many are just Industrial Age bureaucracies? There is a lot of confusion regarding what tribalism is and many Indians themselves are confused.

Knowing the Nottoway personally, I can say that they are as tribal as any other Indian people. I say what I am speaking of, that you are trying to ignore, is the original issue. And much of what it being written on this thread is pure speculation out of ignorance. I do NOT agree with how the Nottoway has approached reorganization!! But everyone must chose their own path and accept the consequences of that path. I can say, based upon personal knowledge, that the Nottoway have "significant" Nottoway Indian ancestry.

this brings up a new question, how can a tribe be truely soverign if we have to beg permission to exist and follow laws implimented by an outside entity?

tribes can only have casinos after the US government gives the ok,

ndn people can have eagle feathers if they have a permit from the feds

the feds hold our lands in trust

the feds hold (and 'misplace' )our monies in trust

and the list goes on and on.

[Renegade]

Dancingeagle:

What I am speaking of is the original topic. It was the topic before this thread was started and before you joined powwow.com and before were born and before your parents and grandparents were born all the way back to 1492.

How do you define a real tribe? I can assure you it not what we called tribes prior to 1492. Name me some tribes in the US that operate based upon true tribal principals? In fact name me some true tribal organizing principals? Most Indians no long even know what true tribal principals are. It is easy to call oneself a tribe, or to be recognized by white people as tribes. But what do white people know about tribes. Some people say that the Federally recognized Indians on the rez are the real tribes. But reservations were created to kill tribalism and Indianism. So is this the place to look to see what a true tribe is? This is not a criticism of tribes or tribes on reservations but a statement of sad fact. How many tribes still operate on the principals of tribalism and how many are just Industrial Age bureaucracies? There is a lot of confusion regarding what tribalism is and many Indians themselves are confused.

Knowing the Nottoway personally, I can say that they are as tribal as any other Indian people. I say what I am speaking of, that you are trying to ignore, is the original issue. And much of what it being written on this thread is pure speculation out of ignorance. I do NOT agree with how the Nottoway has approached reorganization!! But everyone must chose their own path and accept the consequences of that path. I can say, based upon personal knowledge, that the Nottoway have "significant" Nottoway Indian ancestry.

[DANCINGEAGLE]

Getting back to the original topic, the Cheroenhaka Nottoway are really not a tribe. They are a group of people trying to legetimize themselves by saying that they are ndn. Just a few years ago, the "tribe" split because some of the people did not agree with the views of the "chief". The ones that split are now calling themselves something else. The rest of the people are trying to get recognition in VA. It has only been in the past 8-10 years that they came together and said that they were ndn.

[Joe's Dad]

Flutemaker:

There are a lot of tribes in the Southeast that have received state recognition in the past 50 years. In VA and NC alone have close to 15 tribes that would have no recognition at all if there was not for state recognition received in the past couple of decades. And there are tens of thousands of people with claims to significant Indian ancestry with no recognition. Like you I sometimes question the validity of any kind of recognition from the white man. My attitude typically is F their recogition. Imagine Hitler had won WWI and 200 years later you have jews begging for recognition and jewish stars and cards from the Nazis.

We should have our own recognition process and we should be working to search out those lost to the holocaust of the past 500 years, to reteach and to rebuild our nation. Instead we scratch and fight for crumbs from the oppressors table. We have 100,000,000 Indians south of the border, on the reservation called Mexico, who mostly have been brainwashed into thinking they are not Indian. That border is there to keep them on the reservation and to keep Indians from retaking Turtle Island.

So I say lets spend our energy rebuilding our Indian nation, reteaching Indians people who no longer see themselves as Indians because of brainwashing by whites, welcoming people who have reawakened on their own to their Indian roots. We live in a time of awakening and homecoming.. Lets celebrate and be positive.

Is there a lot of confusion and ignorance as we re-awaken. Yes, I'd say this is true of all Indian people. White people came here with the intention of killing our culture and knowledge and were largely successful. So we are in a remembering process. Just because one person or community is 20 or 30 years ahead of another person or tribe, is no reason to be smug about it. Yes, there are phonies looking at their Indianness for their own personal self gain. But we have all adopted selfish white ways as norm because we no long get our needs met via the natural family and tribal system which keeps us healed and focused on other's needs and not our own needs. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones and we all now live in glass houses. Until we again live in real tribal communities where the needs of the family are met via the community we will all continue to live in the white mans glass houses.

If any of you are really serious about your Indianness we are building tribal communities in VA with internal economies, family, ceremony at the center. Lets rebuild our tribal nation our way, getting into the substance and out of the fluff.

Renegade

This is a lot of writing for not too many to read. Most people don't read threads like this. Start a new thread in the Native Life forum with this message to see what responses you'll receive.

[Renegade]

Rebuild

Flutemaker:

There are a lot of tribes in the Southeast that have received state recognition in the past 50 years. In VA and NC alone have close to 15 tribes that would have no recognition at all if there was not for state recognition received in the past couple of decades. And there are tens of thousands of people with claims to significant Indian ancestry with no recognition. Like you I sometimes question the validity of any kind of recognition from the white man. My attitude typically is F their recogition. Imagine Hitler had won WWI and 200 years later you have jews begging for recognition and jewish stars and cards from the Nazis.

We should have our own recognition process and we should be working to search out those lost to the holocaust of the past 500 years, to reteach and to rebuild our nation. Instead we scratch and fight for crumbs from the oppressors table. We have 100,000,000 Indians south of the border, on the reservation called Mexico, who mostly have been brainwashed into thinking they are not Indian. That border is there to keep them on the reservation and to keep Indians from retaking Turtle Island.

So I say lets spend our energy rebuilding our Indian nation, reteaching Indians people who no longer see themselves as Indians because of brainwashing by whites, welcoming people who have reawakened on their own to their Indian roots. We live in a time of awakening and homecoming.. Lets celebrate and be positive.

Is there a lot of confusion and ignorance as we re-awaken. Yes, I'd say this is true of all Indian people. White people came here with the intention of killing our culture and knowledge and were largely successful. So we are in a remembering process. Just because one person or community is 20 or 30 years ahead of another person or tribe, is no reason to be smug about it. Yes, there are phonies looking at their Indianness for their own personal self gain. But we have all adopted selfish white ways as norm because we no long get our needs met via the natural family and tribal system which keeps us healed and focused on other's needs and not our own needs. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones and we all now live in glass houses. Until we again live in real tribal communities where the needs of the family are met via the community we will all continue to live in the white mans glass houses.

If any of you are really serious about your Indianness we are building tribal communities in VA with internal economies, family, ceremony at the center. Lets rebuild our tribal nation our way, getting into the substance and out of the fluff.

Renegade

[eap7]

Blessing the River

That article was interesting to me...Julianne Jennings, who's blessing the river, used to live up here in New England. She'd go around to powwows in MA and RI and tell people she was one of the few MASSACHUSETT Indians left (there's no Massachusett tribe anymore). She'd sing songs allegedly in the Massachusett language and tell crazy stories. Now she's Nottaway? Wondered where she'd gone. lol