is the issue of wannabes,fakes etc important to you??

[NorthofAda]

Good post! I can relate to that. I used to work in the tourism industry, and i'd get alot of people who come through asking about their genelogy. Alot of them did not know which tribe they were from, and just would expect me to know, but I couldn't. It was crazy!

I pretty much told them to start on their family tree, and go from there.

You mean you don't have those mystical NDN powers of being able to identify people by tribe and family by just lookin' at 'em? J/k!

[Blackbear]

You know, of all the people who have claimed to be tuscarora who would have been last affiliated with the nation over 7 generations ago ( or in the late 1700's at best) who think they look "more tuscarora" than those of us in NY who are recognized.. I've only met two people who have showed me photos of their ancestors that even closely resemble modern day families from NY. Stranger yet, one of those people kinda resembles me when she was younger and she and I used to go at it on forums... LOL!

But how do you expect to realistically say you look more like a people from the 1700's than those who you know for fact descend from those people?

But one of the excuses was that WE look different for intermarrying with the other 5 nations which I find funny because originally we had broken off from those original five nations and those five nations used to be only one till they broke off each other. So tuscarora marrying onieda, marrying onondaga, marrying seneca, marrying mohawk marrying cayuga.. we are still marrying our own right? LOL!

[outershell]

i always think the truth is more important..... *

perhaps some wannabees can be converted to supporters and or hobbiest if educated correctly

but the plastic shamen and culture vultures should be dealt with harshly. they do the most damage.
the general public needs to be educated on spotting frauds and so forth




*unless the question is, "do i look fat in this outfit?"

[kiowakat]

i always think the truth is more important..... *

perhaps some wannabees can be converted to supporters and or hobbiest if educated correctly

but the plastic shamen and culture vultures should be dealt with harshly. they do the most damage.
the general public needs to be educated on spotting frauds and so forth




*unless the question is, "do i look fat in this outfit?"

LMAO love the asterick........

[RainbowSpiriDancer]

this is what we here, get to look forward to when the wannabe's throw a pow-wow here in missouri or southern Illinois......blah


YouTube - 2007 pow-wow in Cahokia

YouTube - Cahokia Powwow 2006


can you imagine living around these clowns? they end up in our schools talkin to kids in them ridiculous costumes...yes, they hire a ndn singer and he is suppose to bring his ontourage, then it ends up to be two or three singers around the drum. we use to have kick *** pow-wows at Jefferson Barracks then it moved to Cahokia Mounds, oklahoma, nebraska, kansas ndns use to come, but now its come to this in them videos...

I've watched the videos and I can understand your concern. I saw the children running in and out of the circle and adults walking through the circle. It is a shame but they don't know any better. I saw other disrespects too. They need to learn! And I understand that we've already given them an inch and they've taken the rest! But it will be the way that you see on the videos, and you will see more and more of it, until they learn better.

[Blackbear]

I wonder why this thread keeps showing your post being made yesterday, everyday? LOL!!! must be a glitch.

I keep coming here to see what else you have to say Rainbow, and it's the same post that's been there since Jan 30th it says.. and I don't even think that dates' the right one! ROFLMAO

[kiowakat]

hey BB it took me quite a bit of time to figure this out also, I was looking everyday and same post LOL, its when somebody votes it brings it back up to top lol....

[RainbowSpiriDancer]

I wonder why this thread keeps showing your post being made yesterday, everyday? LOL!!! must be a glitch.

I keep coming here to see what else you have to say Rainbow, and it's the same post that's been there since Jan 30th it says.. and I don't even think that dates' the right one! ROFLMAO

Hi Blackbear,

How are you? I don't know what's going on with the post but I've not said anything else.

[kiowakat]

Hi Blackbear,

How are you? I don't know what's going on with the post but I've not said anything else.

when somebody votes it brings it back up to the top.

[Blackbear]

ok that makes sense... and I probably should know that but I forgot this was a poll to begin with LOL

[MyPeanut]

I am so glad that being light skinned and thought as a wannabe has been mentioned on this board. I am in no way claiming to be a fullblood as I am only half--but it boggles me that my brother and mother are accepted so much because they are dark and 'look' Native--while I am frowned upon because I resemble my very white father. Over the years I felt that phenotypically I was becomming more and more embarassing, until I finally decided to stop going to powwows altogether and I cut myself off from the Native world. I have to say that genetics are very interesting, as my 2 month old is as dark as my mother and brother--though she is only 1/4th.

I think many non-natives are drawn to the circle for several reasons--I've encountered those that are sick and seek out the circle's healing energy, for example. So I don't have a problem with wannabe's per say--but I do have a problem with people who don't follow protocol. Far too many times I have seen wannabes acting inappropriately in regalia.

[Josiah]

I am so glad that being light skinned and thought as a wannabe has been mentioned on this board. I am in no way claiming to be a fullblood as I am only half--but it boggles me that my brother and mother are accepted so much because they are dark and 'look' Native--while I am frowned upon because I resemble my very white father. Over the years I felt that phenotypically I was becomming more and more embarassing, until I finally decided to stop going to powwows altogether and I cut myself off from the Native world. I have to say that genetics are very interesting, as my 2 month old is as dark as my mother and brother--though she is only 1/4th.

I think many non-natives are drawn to the circle for several reasons--I've encountered those that are sick and seek out the circle's healing energy, for example. So I don't have a problem with wannabe's per say--but I do have a problem with people who don't follow protocol. Far too many times I have seen wannabes acting inappropriately in regalia.

I have met every shade of skin color from light to down right dark
Good people and not good people
Its the same in every race
Grew up on a rez but not mine own (mom worked for BIA)
Belong to a tribe that every wannabe across the nation has claimed at one time or another (cherokee)
Myself and siblings were not made welcome with our white kinfolk and have not been in contact with since the early 70's!
And yet despite all of this
I live by the words my Father who was full blood told me when I was very young
"They cant take what is inside you!! If you think of yourself as NDN that is what you are, the rest is just noise"

Never waver from that fact

As for Wannabes, Fakes and Frauds
They are people that dont think of themselves as NDN
They dress up, they wear wigs and tell all who will listen that they are NDN. But deep down inside they know that they are not. They will get what is coming to them in the end...

[Brain Box Babe]

I got a whold bunch of questions

This is a great thread!

Thanks for starting it.

However, I’ve got a lot of questions about how this issue is dealt with on the internet that I’d like answered. Excuse my long-windedness, but this has been bugging me.

The first thing I want to know is why is it that every REAL NDN I know spends a good deal of time sitting around complaining in about the twinkies and the waanabees, but at the same time we’re all so afraid to take any action to stop them? Every pow wow, some fool does something that starts everyone talking about the wanabee issue, but nobody ever goes up to the fool and tries to educate him. Why are we always silent? Why do we all just laugh at him behind his back?

And another thing I want to know is why is it so easy for a few manipulative people to stop all discussion about the wanabee issue? Whenever somebody brings it up on the internet there’s always some conspiracy theorist fear monger who starts forecasting the horror that will happen when the government starts regulating Native spirituality! I think that’s just a load of manure. The government’s gonna come in and ruin everything conspiracy theory is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of, but still nobody ever calls these guys on their silly rhetoric. Does anyone in their right mind really believe the government would start going gung ho trying to protect our spirituality? Oh please!

Don’t we already have laws against fraud, flim-flam artists and crooked people who misrepresent themselves as something they’re not? What would be the harm in enforcing the existing laws that are already on the book? It seems to me we could send thousands of twinks and waanaabes to jail and it wouldn’t have any impact whatsoever on our true religious practices. It might even scare the hell out of all the potential wanabees who are thinking about making a living telling pretty lies about our religions. I think it would be great to arrest all the frauds and fakes, take their money and give it to the tribes they ripped off with their lies, but that’s a utopian pipedream.

Why is it that we can never have any thoughtful, intelligent discussions about how to discourage nonNDNS from becoming wannabes in the first place? Why is there always one bleak scenario presented? Why can’t we talk about ways to make selling ceremonies socially unacceptable in the dominant white society? Why can’t we do our own educating? Who’s idea was it to get the government involved in the first place? When did it become taboo to talk about creative ways to discourage these fools, take all the profit out of it by getting nonNDNs to boycott them? A boycott never hurt anybody. Even a failed on at least raises consciousness about the issue.

Why is this always the only scenario that anyone ever talks about is the tired old – don’t’ say nothing about wanabees because the big bad scary government will want to regulate them. It doesn’t want to regulate all the kooks, psychics, crystal healers, astrologers, tarot card readers now, so why would anyone think it would bother to try to regulate the fake shame-men? Why is this silly scare tactic so successful?

Even if by some miracle, the government decided it was going to crack down on the thousands of twinkies out there all it would be would be a twinkie war – one fraud turning in another to eliminate the competition. It might be fun to watch them all self destruct pointing the finger at each other and turning each other in. Almost poetic justice.

Why does all intelligent discussion immediately shut down whenever one of these guys tries to scare us into thinking that telling the Twinkies that their emperor is naked is going to bring disastrous government regulations on all of us? I really can’t see this ever happening. Is there anybody out there who’s not buying this bull? It’s hard enough to get existing laws enforced keepin the anthros from digging up our ancestors and putting them on display.

What about assembling an army of comedians, satirists, writers, play writes, poets and other cultural warriors to do artistic battle with the wanaabes?
What would happen if NDNS started going public -- making fun of wannabes and confronting them with their silly romantic notions? What about demanding media accountability? What would happen if we protested every time a Lefty radio station interviewed a twinkly fraud and let him falsely represent himself as a shaman? What is we all started confronting the Left for never verifying twinkie credentials? What would happen if the so-called alternative media got swamped from call from irate NDNS who don’t like puff pieces on frauds who tell lies about us?

It seems to me that big payoff for being a wanabee (even bigger than the money) is emotional. It's the ego gratification bragging to all the white folks about how cool and spiritual you are. If the white folks got wise and told the wanabees how full of it they are, there would be no emotional pay off and they’d stop all their foolishness. If you caught hell from all your trendy white friends every time you bragged about going to a sweat lodge, you’d stop doing it pretty fast. You don’t need the government to do that. You don’t need the government to start a social movement. You don’t need the government to start raising consciousness, or to start encouraging people to speak out, and talk about the harm that wanabees do to Native people who are trying to preserve our culture on our terms and with some integrity. I’m tired of these discussions going in the same circles. I want an alternative to the limited all-actions-against-wanaabees-lead-to-a-disasterous-government-crackdown thinking. Why can’t I have it?

Why can't we ever deal with this issue honestly and directly?

Why do I always gotta listen to some pointless sob story about how innocent some nose-bleed is and how horribly they were treated by this NDN or that NDN. What does that have to do with anything? Why do we let ourselves get side-tracked by talking about defining an wanabe? How pointless is that? Wannabes are like pornography, I may not know how to define one, but I sure know one when I see one! Every NDN I know has really strong "skin-dar" we don't know where it comes from, but we know when we're dealing with an outsider.

So why can't we start talking productively about all the different things that each of us individually can do about this issue instead of having every discussion degrade into petty defensiveness and emotional bs?

[Blackbear]

This is a great thread!

Thanks for starting it.

However, I’ve got a lot of questions about how this issue is dealt with on the internet that I’d like answered. Excuse my long-windedness, but this has been bugging me.

The first thing I want to know is why is it that every REAL NDN I know spends a good deal of time sitting around complaining in about the twinkies and the waanabees, but at the same time we’re all so afraid to take any action to stop them? Every pow wow, some fool does something that starts everyone talking about the wanabee issue, but nobody ever goes up to the fool and tries to educate him. Why are we always silent? Why do we all just laugh at him behind his back?

Maybe partly is because alot of people don't want to bring anything negative to the circle and even though there might be some negative feelings about them, it's nothing compared to public confrontation. Or it could be some feel it's up to the folks running the powwow, or they just figure they are'nt qualified to do the job themselves, and some I'd say are just plain entertained by making fun of them. Me personally don't need to be confronting people who are obviously out of their friggin minds... I've done that and even now I'm internet stalked by one LOL!

And another thing I want to know is why is it so easy for a few manipulative people to stop all discussion about the wanabee issue? Whenever somebody brings it up on the internet there’s always some conspiracy theorist fear monger who starts forecasting the horror that will happen when the government starts regulating Native spirituality! I think that’s just a load of manure. The government’s gonna come in and ruin everything conspiracy theory is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of, but still nobody ever calls these guys on their silly rhetoric. Does anyone in their right mind really believe the government would start going gung ho trying to protect our spirituality? Oh please!

HUH? I'm not sure what you are exactly asking.. I know alot of the discussions are quelched because of people's behavior during the discussions and how hateful some get.. breaking forum rules and whatnot.... but if there's some theory about the government regulating native spirituality... well that is partly proven already since, well... they do. Take eagle feathers and peyote into consideration.. it's really not far fetched.

Don’t we already have laws against fraud, flim-flam artists and crooked people who misrepresent themselves as something they’re not? What would be the harm in enforcing the existing laws that are already on the book? It seems to me we could send thousands of twinks and waanaabes to jail and it wouldn’t have any impact whatsoever on our true religious practices. It might even scare the hell out of all the potential wanabees who are thinking about making a living telling pretty lies about our religions. I think it would be great to arrest all the frauds and fakes, take their money and give it to the tribes they ripped off with their lies, but that’s a utopian pipedream.

Claiming you are something you are not is not EXACTLY against the law in of itself. It's what laws they break that gets them in trouble like taking sexual advantage of people, not paying taxes, recieving grants under false status....

Why is it that we can never have any thoughtful, intelligent discussions about how to discourage nonNDNS from becoming wannabes in the first place? Why is there always one bleak scenario presented? Why can’t we talk about ways to make selling ceremonies socially unacceptable in the dominant white society? Why can’t we do our own educating? Who’s idea was it to get the government involved in the first place? When did it become taboo to talk about creative ways to discourage these fools, take all the profit out of it by getting nonNDNs to boycott them? A boycott never hurt anybody. Even a failed on at least raises consciousness about the issue.

Why is this always the only scenario that anyone ever talks about is the tired old – don’t’ say nothing about wanabees because the big bad scary government will want to regulate them. It doesn’t want to regulate all the kooks, psychics, crystal healers, astrologers, tarot card readers now, so why would anyone think it would bother to try to regulate the fake shame-men? Why is this silly scare tactic so successful?

Even if by some miracle, the government decided it was going to crack down on the thousands of twinkies out there all it would be would be a twinkie war – one fraud turning in another to eliminate the competition. It might be fun to watch them all self destruct pointing the finger at each other and turning each other in. Almost poetic justice.

Why does all intelligent discussion immediately shut down whenever one of these guys tries to scare us into thinking that telling the Twinkies that their emperor is naked is going to bring disastrous government regulations on all of us? I really can’t see this ever happening. Is there anybody out there who’s not buying this bull? It’s hard enough to get existing laws enforced keepin the anthros from digging up our ancestors and putting them on display.

What about assembling an army of comedians, satirists, writers, play writes, poets and other cultural warriors to do artistic battle with the wanaabes?
What would happen if NDNS started going public -- making fun of wannabes and confronting them with their silly romantic notions? What about demanding media accountability? What would happen if we protested every time a Lefty radio station interviewed a twinkly fraud and let him falsely represent himself as a shaman? What is we all started confronting the Left for never verifying twinkie credentials? What would happen if the so-called alternative media got swamped from call from irate NDNS who don’t like puff pieces on frauds who tell lies about us?

It seems to me that big payoff for being a wanabee (even bigger than the money) is emotional. It's the ego gratification bragging to all the white folks about how cool and spiritual you are. If the white folks got wise and told the wanabees how full of it they are, there would be no emotional pay off and they’d stop all their foolishness. If you caught hell from all your trendy white friends every time you bragged about going to a sweat lodge, you’d stop doing it pretty fast. You don’t need the government to do that. You don’t need the government to start a social movement. You don’t need the government to start raising consciousness, or to start encouraging people to speak out, and talk about the harm that wanabees do to Native people who are trying to preserve our culture on our terms and with some integrity. I’m tired of these discussions going in the same circles. I want an alternative to the limited all-actions-against-wanaabees-lead-to-a-disasterous-government-crackdown thinking. Why can’t I have it?

Why can't we ever deal with this issue honestly and directly?

Why do I always gotta listen to some pointless sob story about how innocent some nose-bleed is and how horribly they were treated by this NDN or that NDN. What does that have to do with anything? Why do we let ourselves get side-tracked by talking about defining an wanabe? How pointless is that? Wannabes are like pornography, I may not know how to define one, but I sure know one when I see one! Every NDN I know has really strong "skin-dar" we don't know where it comes from, but we know when we're dealing with an outsider.

So why can't we start talking productively about all the different things that each of us individually can do about this issue instead of having every discussion degrade into petty defensiveness and emotional bs?

want to finish answering you but the kid just woke up for his midnight feeding frenzy..... later!

[Blackbear]

Why is it that we can never have any thoughtful, intelligent discussions about how to discourage nonNDNS from becoming wannabes in the first place? Why is there always one bleak scenario presented? Why can’t we talk about ways to make selling ceremonies socially unacceptable in the dominant white society? Why can’t we do our own educating? Who’s idea was it to get the government involved in the first place? When did it become taboo to talk about creative ways to discourage these fools, take all the profit out of it by getting nonNDNs to boycott them? A boycott never hurt anybody. Even a failed on at least raises consciousness about the issue.

Good question... and I think one of the biggest things to do for some of these guys is to get the folks to hire them to take responsibility to check into who they are hiring to speak or teach at their functions.

Why is this always the only scenario that anyone ever talks about is the tired old – don’t’ say nothing about wanabees because the big bad scary government will want to regulate them. It doesn’t want to regulate all the kooks, psychics, crystal healers, astrologers, tarot card readers now, so why would anyone think it would bother to try to regulate the fake shame-men? Why is this silly scare tactic so successful?

Even if by some miracle, the government decided it was going to crack down on the thousands of twinkies out there all it would be would be a twinkie war – one fraud turning in another to eliminate the competition. It might be fun to watch them all self destruct pointing the finger at each other and turning each other in. Almost poetic justice.

Hmm.. it was my thinking more people were looking toward the US government to have laws in place to begin with and maybe stiff penalties for law breakers. Right now about the only one that you got on them is the use of eagle feathers and certain regulated "medicines". It actually would'nt hurt them to do this... fines help keep things in this country running and pay salaries... but should'nt these folks with these ideas write a bill or present it instead of just hoping it happens.... or is that what you are getting at?

Why does all intelligent discussion immediately shut down whenever one of these guys tries to scare us into thinking that telling the Twinkies that their emperor is naked is going to bring disastrous government regulations on all of us? I really can’t see this ever happening. Is there anybody out there who’s not buying this bull? It’s hard enough to get existing laws enforced keepin the anthros from digging up our ancestors and putting them on display.

What about assembling an army of comedians, satirists, writers, play writes, poets and other cultural warriors to do artistic battle with the wanaabes?
What would happen if NDNS started going public -- making fun of wannabes and confronting them with their silly romantic notions? What about demanding media accountability? What would happen if we protested every time a Lefty radio station interviewed a twinkly fraud and let him falsely represent himself as a shaman? What is we all started confronting the Left for never verifying twinkie credentials? What would happen if the so-called alternative media got swamped from call from irate NDNS who don’t like puff pieces on frauds who tell lies about us?

very interesting ideas.....

It seems to me that big payoff for being a wanabee (even bigger than the money) is emotional. It's the ego gratification bragging to all the white folks about how cool and spiritual you are. If the white folks got wise and told the wanabees how full of it they are, there would be no emotional pay off and they’d stop all their foolishness. If you caught hell from all your trendy white friends every time you bragged about going to a sweat lodge, you’d stop doing it pretty fast. You don’t need the government to do that. You don’t need the government to start a social movement. You don’t need the government to start raising consciousness, or to start encouraging people to speak out, and talk about the harm that wanabees do to Native people who are trying to preserve our culture on our terms and with some integrity. I’m tired of these discussions going in the same circles. I want an alternative to the limited all-actions-against-wanaabees-lead-to-a-disasterous-government-crackdown thinking. Why can’t I have it?

I still think it's a form of mental illness based in narcissm...... and seriously I'm thinking of getting a psychology degree now to do a study myself since no one else seems to be.. LOL

Why can't we ever deal with this issue honestly and directly?

Why do I always gotta listen to some pointless sob story about how innocent some nose-bleed is and how horribly they were treated by this NDN or that NDN. What does that have to do with anything? Why do we let ourselves get side-tracked by talking about defining an wanabe? How pointless is that? Wannabes are like pornography, I may not know how to define one, but I sure know one when I see one! Every NDN I know has really strong "skin-dar" we don't know where it comes from, but we know when we're dealing with an outsider.

So why can't we start talking productively about all the different things that each of us individually can do about this issue instead of having every discussion degrade into petty defensiveness and emotional bs?

Because alot of the real go getters are'nt wasting their time online hon... that's pretty much it.