is the issue of wannabes,fakes etc important to you??

[Zeke]

KiowaKat started this thread a few years ago to Raise the awareness about a group of people that are using Native Culture for Financial Gain.

You mean, people like like KiowaKat?

So to look at the results of the poll I see most people dont give a rats azz unless it directly effects them.

You mean, people like KiowaKat?

So which one are you???

I am a free enterprise-er from WAY back.

Why do millions of American's purchase Japanese cars? Because they think they're better cars. (And, for many years, they were.)

Now, we can put tariffs (or metaphorical Acts) on Japanese cars -- making it cheaper to buy American regardless of any perceived quality issues -- but we're really just artificially inflating consumer prices to press funds in another direction: towards a class we prefer, regardless of product comparison.

And, of course, those that cannot directly compete LOVE this because it makes them competitive and inflates their prices.

If you turn out the best art/product/widget, you don't require consumer protection. If you desire to be paid for producing Native stuff, directly compete with ANYONE or just take your government cheese, directly.

Protectionism is a handout.

But that's what people like KiowaKat want, even though they attempt to hide their insidious strategy through thinly-veiled rhetoric like, "this is about the consumer."

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

Do you really believe the top-tier vendors, or true artists (you know, the ones doing it for the sake of art, not $$$), are the LEAST concerned?

Me, either.

[IlnuSoldier]

I agree Zeke.

Protectionism IS a handout.

It goes in accordance with all that "the great white father" rhetoric.....

... like saying the native is too weak or too stupid to survive without the white man protecting him and giving him special rules ...

Truth is... if you can't make a dreamcatcher BETTER than some sweatshop in China... you fail.... don't go running to the white man to ask for his protection from "the big bad free market". One has to ask why the "wannabe" would be able to out-craft you in the first place ?

Do you think your CDIB gives you the right to make low-grade art and get away with it ?

How are you going to blame the white man for everything, but then turn around and hide behind him ?

These NDNs seem like the lady that keeps getting abused by her husband, yet for some reason, stays with him and lives in his house.

It is a twisted and distorted way of thinking.

You scream "VICTIM" yet you willfully jump into the circumstances that take away your autonomy.

Stand up and face your opposition directly--- like the old ones did --- and don't hide behind the lame and tired "wannabe" arguement or behind government handouts.

Are the People getting this lazy and weak ?

*sigh* I am glad that I have yet to hear this b.s. up around my home ... yet.


I do believe treaty rights should be honored... and "special circumstances" shoud be made IN RELATION TO THE TREATY RIGHTS...

...but I never saw a treaty which said "Indians are protected from the free market"...

What ? Are Natives afraid the white people will out "indian" them ?

No.. its just about money and a sense of protectionism...

Once the wannabes are out of the way... then the full bloods will want the half bloods to be restricted... all due to money...

Protectionism = Assimiliation made easy
Step 1 : Make Indians push away the Wannabes --- Rather than finding a way to use wannabes as a support and resource, trick the Indian into pushing away any potential NON-native support. This will separate the indian from all other groups, effectively isolating him.
Step 2 : With the non-natives gone, the Full Blood Indian will turn their agressions to the halfbreeds, arguing that Full Bloods deserve more money than halfbreeds. This will isolate the full bloods from their relatives. The halfbreeds will be forced into white society and the full bloods will be isolated.
Step 3 : With non-native support gone and half-breeds gone... Natives will only be able to associate with and marry other fullbloods. This will severly limit their economic and genentic diversity. Within a handful of generations, their DNA will be too close and they will be FORCED to marry outside OR suffer inbreeding.
Step 4 : Those they marry outside will be forced to join white society, as per the laws inacted in Step 2. Those who risk inbreeding will face a series of medical and mental illnesses.
Step 5 : Eventually, the native will either be killed off do to poor breeding conditions or due to the laws inacted in Step2.
Step 6 : Close the reservation and sell off all lands to private companies.

[Josiah]

You mean, people like like KiowaKat?



You mean, people like KiowaKat?



I am a free enterprise-er from WAY back.

Why do millions of American's purchase Japanese cars? Because they think they're better cars. (And, for many years, they were.)

Now, we can put tariffs (or metaphorical Acts) on Japanese cars -- making it cheaper to buy American regardless of any perceived quality issues -- but we're really just artificially inflating consumer prices to press funds in another direction: towards a class we prefer, regardless of product comparison.

And, of course, those that cannot directly compete LOVE this because it makes them competitive and inflates their prices.

If you turn out the best art/product/widget, you don't require consumer protection. If you desire to be paid for producing Native stuff, directly compete with ANYONE or just take your government cheese, directly.

Protectionism is a handout.

But that's what people like KiowaKat want, even though they attempt to hide their insidious strategy through thinly-veiled rhetoric like, "this is about the consumer."

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

Do you really believe the top-tier vendors, or true artists (you know, the ones doing it for the sake of art, not $$$), are the LEAST concerned?

Me, either.

So I take it you replied no...

I am aware of Supply and demand and Just in Time Manufacturing concepts or Six-Sigma and Lean Principles
Which none of these applies here...
Its the fact that some native sat down and made (not manufactured) the item that gives its value and allows a higher price to CHARGED!!!
So if I were a merchant and my supply of the goods were hit and miss another words when they felt like making it, well I would look for other sources too!
Just across the ocean is a place that makes Bazillions of this stuff and who is to know!
Now if I were to say its CHINESE MADE
Would I be able to charge the Same Price????
COME ON ZEKE ANSWER THAT QUESTION

I thought not
IT would not have the same value!!!
That is the real issue here...
Its the thought that somebody sat down and made it
Good or bad and the system is self correcting that is for sure
For if you make crap nobody will buy it.
I grew up around those Trading posts out to the west they had hundreds of them on the Rez in Arizona
You know the ones they would pay a few dollars and maybe a bottle wine to the guy that spent weeks making it then the Trader would turn sell it for a $1000.00 to the rich tourists and that rich tourist bought it because it was NATIVE MADE
Would they pay the same if it had a big ole sign on it that said MADE IN CHINA!

ANSWER THAT QUESTION ZEKE


Those same traders now are out of Business because the Natives finally woke up to the fact we dont need the middle man and now sell that DIRECTLY to the RICH Tourists who still buy the jewelry and crafts because they are native made
That puts a value on the item, which then becomes an universal value known throughout the World.
Take that same piece to Europe and you could sell it for an even Higher Price
Why is that ZEKE
Because it was made in China?

Travel the World Zeke and you find crafts all over the place....
They do beautiful Silver work I have seen it and bought pieces in the outdoor markets in Colombo.
They have little signs on the pieces telling you who made them Like the Tamil which they charge a little more for because they are known to do great work.
That is the law there. (Imagine that)

Take Persian Rugs for example
Now if they are made say in India and called Persian rugs they dont have the same value now do they?
I have bought them in Pakistan from a guy that assured me they were not Indian Made!
LOL
Actually the Indian made rugs looked just the same as the Persian Rugs, It takes a real expert that knows the patterns and the materials to tell the difference. But because they were made in India they were up to 50 or 60 percent lower in price!!! So a guy could go over to India and buy hundreds of Rugs and then come back to the States and Sell them for Top Dollar and just Call them Persian! Hmmmmmm


Its not a Tariff system that is in place around the world its a DISCLOSURE system
hmmmmm
So if I were to tell you who made it and that would Lower the VALUE of the piece.
Now that is different is it not ZEKE

Its not a perfect system but it was better than what we had

And all laws can be modified
When nobody buys Native crafts or is willing to pay top dollar then this will not be an Issue any longer now will it
But it has been rolling for more than a Hundred Years now
Who is to say what it will be in a Thousand

[IlnuSoldier]

To use a nature metaphor

Flexible = supple = Life
Rigid = tight = death

Light = Compassion, Wisdom, Understanding, Patience, generosity, flexible
Dark = Isolationism, Rigid thinking, close mindned, lack of patience, deliberate ignorance, unmerciful, lack of compassion

Do you want to live in a world of Light and Life... or Death and Darkness ?

A tree that is kept it small dark wooden crate... dies.
A tree that is allowed open space and sunlight... lives.


This entire argument could lead to one question :

Why not adopt a wannabe and give them the gift of compassion, patience, and understanding ? Guide them. Obviously, they are confused and seeking something meaningful... even if their search is twisted.
Why not share, in a sacred way of course, these things. Does DNA really determine one's spiritual path ?

Why not trade with these wannabes ? Trade them authentic religion for their unwavering support ?

My people, the Mi'kmaw and French, did this AND IT WORKED BEAUTIFULLY.

Unfortunately... this requires the native have a healthy self-image and understanding of who they are in the world -- BEFORE they can guide the wannabe.

And that is the key factor : Poor Self-Understanding.

This "cloistered-thinking" is going to get us all killed.

Before you are Indian, you are HUMAN. Do not let the mentally-imposed concepts of "Indian" over-ride the basic qualities AND RESPONSIBILITIES of being human.

The world is bigger than your rez.

[IlnuSoldier]

Josiah - It is not exactly the actual law or event that is deadly... it is the mind-set and the expectation.. the ideology ... that is distrubing.

[SuzzeQ4]

Well not only do I agree with Josiah, the point was made better, and backed up through world example (unless the whole world is wrong).

I am going to expand on it, using Zekes Japanese car example. How would all the consumers who love Japanese cars feel if everyone was allowed to slap a "made in Japan" label on their car? When you buy products (here in Canada or the US) you have a "made in label", a "Native made" label is no different.

[Zeke]

How would all the consumers who love Japanese cars feel if everyone was allowed to slap a "made in Japan" label on their car?

If the intrinsic worth/quality/value of the car is the same, it doesn't matter: except who gets paid. All things being equal, to the consumer, it's the same high-quality car. This is NOT about the consumer.

In this case, Genetics are being used as a provenance for worth and it is Protectionist drivel designed to assist the producer that cannot compete.

What's worth more, a tanned hide from China, done 200 years ago, or one done in a backyard (by a Native loon) in St. Louis, done last month?

And don't dare say, "It depends upon what someone is willing to pay," because that's the whole point.

We're manufacturing competitiveness. Josiah has attempted to justify the requirement -- for protectionism -- related to Made in China signs in his eloquent post. Think real hard about what you're willing to do to corner the White Man Trinket Market: because that is all his argument applies to.

It's sort of like slapping tariffs on Hyundais until they cost the same as Cadillacs, hoping that those who have already decided they're not going to spend much $$$ will buy Cadillacs. (They just won't spend, anything.)

If Cadillac wants to be in this market -- cheap and disposable White Man's Trinkets -- they have to build a different car. Or, in this case, produce a better trinket.

But folks, like KiowaKat, will still want to be paid their Honorarium, simply because Dad once had a good night with the Mrs. So they don't even TRY to be competitive.

Folks that care about an item's provenance, check. Folks that don't care, cannot be made to. Who does that impact? It impacts the short-sighted, uncompetitive, no modern skills, Protectionist, Entitlement, neo-Autocratic, and damaging producers of Native goods for personal profit.

In sum, people like KiowaKat.

They're no different then the beggars that sat by Route 66 on blankets waiting for tourists, except they -- also -- desire a Federal Act to prevent anyone from sitting beside them.

SAD.

[IlnuSoldier]

Does this mean that all hamburgers have to be made by white people from now on... since white people created the hamburger.... we now have to go to white people for hamburgers...

..no more hamburgers on the rez eh ?

No more hamburger venders at powwows 'cause Indians are stealing the white man's ideas and culture ?

If I buy a hamburger from an indian vender...is he a wannabe ? Is the hamburger I am buying a fake hamburger ?

How can I tell the real hamburgers from the fake ones ?

Does every Indian that sells a hamburger now have to pay white people a percentage of the hamburger sale ?

Does a hamburger need to say "WHITE MADE" for me to know its a real hamburger ?

[IlnuSoldier]

I don't want to do this...but..

What about Non-Status Indians... specifically, those of us who voluntarily disenrolled a few years back to free ourselves from government domination ?

Yea... approach this topic for a second... please =)

Matter of fact...PLEASE say that we "are not indians anymore"

OR that we can't make "native crafts" anymore...

Or..better yet... PLEASE try to say that I owe you money 'cause I sold a dreamcatcher last week...



Native American = The only race determined by ink on paper rather than blood in veins.

[OLChemist]

Addressing just IACA:

If the intrinsic worth/quality/value of the car is the same, it doesn't matter: except who gets paid.

Ahh... But to the buyer it does matter. Collectors want "the real thing." For the most part collectors are members of a socioeconomic group that thinks of race/culture in essentialist terms -- ie "blood."

Folks that care about an item's providence, check.

Provenance can be faked. And, again I say, the IACA is protectionist, but not for the artist. It protects the collector from fraud.

Fraud damages the market value for all works. For this reason fraudulent representation of an artist's work, by the artist or the gallery, devalues all work. This is the same market force that governs the value of collectable artworks by non-Native artists. In this the IACA serves as a fair-labeling act.

The reality is quality does out. Well made, beautiful pieces by non-Natives command the same prices as comparable Native made pieces. But, they do not have overlapping sets of buyers or marketing outlets. The collectors market for Native artworks is as closed to non-Native artists as the market for Picasso's is to me.

[Josiah]

If the intrinsic worth/quality/value of the car is the same, it doesn't matter: except who gets paid. All things being equal, to the consumer, it's the same high-quality car. This is NOT about the consumer.

In this case, Genetics are being used as a providence for worth and it is Protectionist drivel designed to assist the producer that cannot compete.

What's worth more, a tanned hide from China, done 200 years ago, or one done in a backyard (by a Native loon) in St. Louis, done last month?

And don't dare say, "It depends upon what someone is willing to pay," because that's the whole point.

We're manufacturing competitiveness. Josiah has attempted to justify the requirement -- for protectionism -- related to Made in China signs in his eloquent post. Think real hard about what you're willing to do to corner the White Man Trinket Market: because that is all his argument applies to.

It's sort of like slapping tariffs on Hyundais until they cost the same as Cadillacs, hoping that those who have already decided they're not going to spend much $$$ will buy Cadillacs. (They just won't spend, anything.)

If Cadillac wants to be in this market -- cheap and disposable White Man's Trinkets -- they have to build a different car. Or, in this case, produce a better trinket.

But folks, like KiowaKat, will still want to be paid their Honorarium, simply because Dad once had a good night with the Mrs. So they don't even TRY to be competitive.

Folks that care about an item's providence, check. Folks that don't care, cannot be made to. Who does that impact? It impacts the short-sighted, uncompetitive, no modern skills, Protectionist, Entitlement, neo-Autocratic, and damaging producers of Native goods for personal profit.

In sum, people like KiowaKat.

They're no different then the beggars that sat by Route 66 on blankets waiting for tourists, except they -- also -- desire a Federal Act to prevent anyone from sitting beside them.

SAD.

No it gives them equal footing
Again if you make a beautiful product, people will buy it...
That is fact of life!
That is not the issue here
Its the fact that somebody can make a Million of those products at a fraction of the cost and pass them off as NATIVE and get the same price as if they were handmade.
That is the very core of the issue.
There would be no issue if I hung a sign on it and called it "made by Wannabe" and it has a value that was equal to what I was selling!
Well then I would have to go back and hone my skills and make mine better

Its passing it off as AUTHENTIC, When they know very well that has value that is disturbing.
How does the common craftsman combat this??
Well going to the government and ask for protection
LOL
Do you honestly think that a bunch of Backwoods Skindns could get that kind of response
LOL
That is too funny
It was the RICH TOURIST that found out they bought a Knock-off they are the ones that have the clout to get laws changed!!!
The way of the political system is not to serve the common man. Its to get reelected
And you get reelected by listening to people that have MONEY!!!
That is where the law came from....




Round and Around we go
Where we stop nobody knows

[SuzzeQ4]

mislabeling of products is not allowed. Why should it be different for Native crafts? The consumer has a right to know exactly what they are buying and then make their choice.
The crafts person obviously doesn't want other people faking what the product is (no artist of any genre wants that).
The product will only sell for what its worth. So if I make crap, It will still be crap with or with out proper labeling, but if I produce quality, that people want then I want them to know that it is
A) authentic, and B) quality.
I buy Native childrens books for my kids. (I buy other books to but for b-days ect. I buy Native books) so as a consumer I like to know that the author is in fact NDN cause as far as I am concerened it isn't an NDN book if the author is white. I make a choice to support NDN authors. It's like americanschoosing american made or canadians choosing canadian made. People would be mighty pissed if they bought something they thought was american made (due to labeling) only to find out it came from china, regardless of quality, it's a choice. Likewise the producer of the product would be pissed cause they have lost a market that wants specifically american made. No different.

I guess my question is: If every other product requires proper labeling, why should we expect less?

[IlnuSoldier]

Again.... it isn't the actual labeling... it is the mind set of protectionism that is disturbing.

Everything you are talking about is "sans culture"--- PURE business ... which is the same idea I had in relation to plastic shamans on that other topic thread...

PURE business... fine... but it sounds like double talk because on THIS board everyone is supporting "basic business, nothing personal".. but on the OTHER thread that ideology is not supported. WTF ?

Again though... I ask what is the definition of "native made" .... and then you have to go right back into the CDIB and Non-Status arguement.....

So again, it boils back down to the same arguement... somebody wanting special LEGAL attention due to their DNA.

You can't forge a Piccaso because HE -- A SINGLE MAN IN THE COURSE OF HISTORY-- is himself.

Also, you can't forge other artist due to COPYRIGHT laws based on each individual piece of art--- based around a singular particular PERSON.

A singular person is easy to define... a copyright is easy to define.

But a race ? You expect to define an entire race easily on paper?

Again, I ask... if I disenroll from a tribe, am I no longer native ? Did my race change suddenly when i signed my disenrollment papers ?

If I make a dream catcher, is it no longer "native made" ?

Who determines who is "native" ? Oh...the CDIB ?

Again--- race determined by ink on paper rather than blood and family relations.

So..the basic premise of your idea seems fair and safe--- until you dig into its deeper implications.

[SuzzeQ4]

Ok, well then let's do away with "american made", "canadian made"
"made in tiwan" etc, etc. After all nationality is defined on a piece of paper...birth certificates and passports, from the country A nation is defined by lines drawn on a map, lines that unlike blood, get redifined all the time.

[blacktail]

i've debated for weeks wether or not i should do this or not. i may regret it in some way, but i'm going to do it anyway. check out what i found on you tube..........
YouTube - kateri shrine powow