is the issue of wannabes,fakes etc important to you??

[TKMJ Productions]

i've debated for weeks wether or not i should do this or not. i may regret it in some way, but i'm going to do it anyway. check out what i found on you tube..........
YouTube - kateri shrine powow

I've heard drums like that in Ohio and out east up into New England. They seem to stick to the northeast states. What did you guys think?

Being a Mohawk gathering, Shouldn't the drum be a water drum? That's what the Mohawk people used.

[sokoki_wolf]

You mean, people like like KiowaKat?



You mean, people like KiowaKat?



I am a free enterprise-er from WAY back.

Why do millions of American's purchase Japanese cars? Because they think they're better cars. (And, for many years, they were.)

Now, we can put tariffs (or metaphorical Acts) on Japanese cars -- making it cheaper to buy American regardless of any perceived quality issues -- but we're really just artificially inflating consumer prices to press funds in another direction: towards a class we prefer, regardless of product comparison.

And, of course, those that cannot directly compete LOVE this because it makes them competitive and inflates their prices.

If you turn out the best art/product/widget, you don't require consumer protection. If you desire to be paid for producing Native stuff, directly compete with ANYONE or just take your government cheese, directly.

Protectionism is a handout.

But that's what people like KiowaKat want, even though they attempt to hide their insidious strategy through thinly-veiled rhetoric like, "this is about the consumer."

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

Do you really believe the top-tier vendors, or true artists (you know, the ones doing it for the sake of art, not $$$), are the LEAST concerned?

Me, either.

interesting that you take cheap shots when someone isnt here to defend themselves zeek...but thats yout style as is very evident to all here...like all those red beads you have too,i see youre still offensive as always...well KK isnt able to defend herself so i felt it only right that someone does....its always been clear to those of us who do in fact care about the fakes and fraud issue,what your own personal agenda is....you pander to that wannabee pan-indian crowd,they give you validity and legitimacy...you, for the record had a job(past tense)that you got based on your being Indian...so once again,your words dont really match your actions in life...youre obviously very ashamed for some reason of being Indian unless it can make a dollar or two for you...do you have ''white envy''? secretly wishing you were white instead of what you were born?
ive said it before and ill repeat myself,your words match exactly the same rhetoric and agenda as the feds and their lower than life informers and infiltrators....
and yes the issue of fakes and frauds IS important to most people who actually give a damn about the future for Indian people...its clearly evident that you dont....

[blacktail]

I've heard drums like that in Ohio and out east up into New England. They seem to stick to the northeast states. What did you guys think?

Being a Mohawk gathering, Shouldn't the drum be a water drum? That's what the Mohawk people used.

my honist opinion...as long as they have a place to go so they're not bothering the rest of us. (understood at face value) i did happen to go to this "powwow" for the first and last time two years ago. if you think this clip is bad you should've been there. at one point during the day i happened to be walking by a van and as the people were getting in i over heard one lady say "there aren't even real indians here." i'm sorry, but i had to laugh. i have to be honist though, some of these people are giving it there best shot at things, without real teachers. however, most just don't care and that's what makes the rest of us mad. and i wouldn't call this a mohawk gathering...just a gathering.

[TKMJ Productions]

my honist opinion...as long as they have a place to go so they're not bothering the rest of us. (understood at face value) i did happen to go to this "powwow" for the first and last time two years ago. if you think this clip is bad you should've been there. at one point during the day i happened to be walking by a van and as the people were getting in i over heard one lady say "there aren't even real indians here." i'm sorry, but i had to laugh. i have to be honist though, some of these people are giving it there best shot at things, without real teachers. however, most just don't care and that's what makes the rest of us mad. and i wouldn't call this a mohawk gathering...just a gathering.

It's hard to assume that the powwow was not a Mohawk gathering from the name alone.

The main problem I have found out east was the damage done to the heritage by the white settlers and armys that took over the land. Remember the loss in heritage is much less out west. If we were invaded at the west coast instead of the east, the reverse would have happened losing heritage out west first.

Out east many people grasp at straws assuming it is the correct way. Who is really there to show them the right and proper way for their tribal backgrounds with so much lost. People out east tend to grasp on a bit of knowlege and twist it to a white way of thinking. After all they are usually educated by the white schools and usually seek the knowlege as adults who are living in a white way. It tends to make them think differently. So how else can they think. I'm not saying it is right or wrong but do think the roots of the persons education and life style tends to make them think the way they do. Over the years I have also noticed more fakes tend to teach their "creative ways" out east more the in the west. The reason for this is the hunger for any knowlege from the eastern people.

As an audio recording engineer, I try to educate myself on the history of the drums that our people use. I feel that is part of my job that I just happen to love to do. Must be a NDN thing. Mind you the education I require is hard to come by out east with the loss of heritage. I am no expert on the subject but do have a good solid knowlege from years of experience and research. I have even researched the Smithsonian music records and have found very little of the music of eastern tribes compaired to tribes west of the MIssissippi River.

When a drum comes into my studio for recording, the first question I ask is what style (tribe) the music I am to record comes from. That tells me what type of microphone and other recording gear I tend to use to capture the sound. If you say you are Lakota, I expect Lakota songs or close from surronding areas. If you are Eastern Cherokee, I expect to hear something on the order of a rabbit dance song at some point. The point I am trying to make is that people from an area tend to have a certain style of song in the Native enviorment. When a drum comes in that does not tend to do songs in the way of the tribe claimed. It make me wonder. Never the less reguardless of the material, I will do my best to record the sounds as performed.

Edited side note: Our drum music from tribe west of the Mississippi River and the Eastern Band Cherokee tend to use a five or six note scale in their songs in a panatonic format. These scales were derived from the old music scales of eastern Aisa. That tends to prove where our music was derived from along with the travels of our people's migration per anthropological (sp?) records. Why do some of the drums that we question use a modern seven tone scale derived from the masters of modern music? (Bach, Mozart, etc) It appears that the drums that claim northeastern tribal heritage in the U.S. tend to use the seven tone scale while drums from southeast Canada still use five and six tone scales as well. Why the change in scales in such a small part of North America? I feel it is the white influience that has caused the loss and change in the music.

[SuzzeQ4]

It is hard to fathom at times, cause livin in South eaast Ontarion I am surrounded by Mohawks, Algonquins and Anishnawbe. The Mohawks here Know a lot of their knowledge, lots speak the language, lots a water drum groups etc. Although there are regions here that are like what you talk about. It just seems wierd because a short (1 hr or less) car ride away are the same people with lots of knowledge. So yeah it is sad. One small pocket nearby has lost a lot of thier ways...or so one would think. They follow a lot of the ways of thier neighbours. Yet 3 hours a way are others of thier Nation...lazy I guess, in a hurry maybe. Thing is there are 2 very traditional families in this community. They don't know a thing about beads, powwows or how to make a fancy shawl regalia but they can teach ya how to harvest rice, hunt, track, build a canoe and lots of ceremoies too. Now if you ask for a ceremony to get your NDN name they will look at you like you got 2 heads; old, less flashy stuff though. But people want the flash. I think this is the problem, the people want flashy stuff and showin off at powwow (sure its great fun with your people) but the other stuff doesn't seem on their radar. Sad.

[blacktail]

agreed for the most part. but don't forget those of us who haven't forgotten the old ways. look at kanatsiohareke. we have a philosiphy (sp?) "carlisle indian school in reverse" giving back the language...giving back the ceremonies...giving back what ever else was taken away.

[Silverhawk76]

Hello all -

I have been reading this thread with interest.

I have been walking & living my Path and I've realized - why are we EVEN worried about the other person and what they think of us? Most oftentimes, the other person wouldn't know WHO WE ARE down to our Core Inner Self / Inner Spirit / Being. So how can they "judge" / decide what we believe or feel is right or wrong? Only we know that for ourselves. It seems we're too busy focusing on the OTHER instead of our own SELF. And we are also the ones that are making the choice to accept what others think of us as our own truth. You have a CHOICE - ALWAYS.

If we stopped worrying about NDN quotas, or even what nationality / Tribe we are, etc and so on. And focused on our OWN Self / Spirit / Inner Being and be secure in who we really are and knowing we are FULLY LOVED by Creator / Source/ God / or however way you believe. And possibly even "take the time" to understand - really understand where the other person is coming from by COMMUNICATING, why they think/feel the way they do then we wouldn't feel so "threatened" (as we'd also already be secure within) we'd probably even come away often from it thinking - my gosh, I thought / believed differently about this person / event / whatnot and it wasn't TRUE! and the world would be a much better place because we have Love for ourselves and for others. Everyone has their own reality, experience, Path, beliefs, etc - and beliefs, opinions, realities are always changing too as we continue on our Journey! ;-)

I'm not you or anybody else - I'm ME - I am a Spiritual Person and AM NDN deep inside where it matters to ME (not anyone else!) - I don't need to justify myself or back it up with "evidence (quota, outside appearance, etc) or whatnot" to anybody else. I'm happy & secure with who I am- I am AMY! ;-)

I respect others as they know who they are and it would be presumptous (sp?) of me to judge them nor is really my place to do so.

And better yet, do you think that Creator / Source / God / or however way you believe - is Judging us like we are judging each other? NO. We are just being ridiculous and wasting our energy when we could put our energy to better use and the world would be AWESOME.

Creator / Source / God / etc - is in ALL of US - experiencing LIFE through each of us - so do you think Source Creator is judging the other parts of Self?

;-)

Thanks -

Take care,
Amy

[SuzzeQ4]

If we stopped worrying about NDN quotas, or even what nationality / Tribe we are, etc and so on. And focused on our OWN Self / Spirit / Inner Being and be secure in who we really are
Amy

OK, I am just going to address this comment.
You can't follow your traditional ways without focusing on your Nation. If you try you'll be doing the pan-NDN thing and totally missing the mark.

[steelemagnolia63]

I think that you need to practice the traditions of your nation, not someone elses. Let me put this in very simple terms. We might all be apples but we are different kinds of apples. Some are Granny Smiths, some are Red Delicious, some are MacIntosh and so on. We are different we are not all from the same tree. Wannabes are Oranges no matter how hard they try they can't be an apple and more than we can be an orange....not even deep down inside where it's important...

Fakes and Wannabes seem to think that Native Americans are all the same, and for some reason they seem to think that we are all plains tribes. They come off with that I am ndn down in my heart where it's important to me. I am ndn because I am walking the "red road". I am ndn because I care for Mother Earth. I am ndn because some other pseudo-ndn adopted me and gave me a "native" name. To me this is almost always the red flag of the wannabe nation.

My path is not to be an ndn. I was born 7/16th Cherokee, I am Native American, my path is that of one of the Creator's humble creatures just trying to be the best human being that I can be. My path is to be a bridge between my ancestors and my children, their children, the generations that follow and anyothers who ask my help along their journey.

[TKMJ Productions]

Hello all -

I have been reading this thread with interest.

I have been walking & living my Path and I've realized - why are we EVEN worried about the other person and what they think of us? Most oftentimes, the other person wouldn't know WHO WE ARE down to our Core Inner Self / Inner Spirit / Being. So how can they "judge" / decide what we believe or feel is right or wrong? Only we know that for ourselves. It seems we're too busy focusing on the OTHER instead of our own SELF. And we are also the ones that are making the choice to accept what others think of us as our own truth. You have a CHOICE - ALWAYS.

If we stopped worrying about NDN quotas, or even what nationality / Tribe we are, etc and so on. And focused on our OWN Self / Spirit / Inner Being and be secure in who we really are and knowing we are FULLY LOVED by Creator / Source/ God / or however way you believe. And possibly even "take the time" to understand - really understand where the other person is coming from by COMMUNICATING, why they think/feel the way they do then we wouldn't feel so "threatened" (as we'd also already be secure within) we'd probably even come away often from it thinking - my gosh, I thought / believed differently about this person / event / whatnot and it wasn't TRUE! and the world would be a much better place because we have Love for ourselves and for others. Everyone has their own reality, experience, Path, beliefs, etc - and beliefs, opinions, realities are always changing too as we continue on our Journey! ;-)

I'm not you or anybody else - I'm ME - I am a Spiritual Person and AM NDN deep inside where it matters to ME (not anyone else!) - I don't need to justify myself or back it up with "evidence (quota, outside appearance, etc) or whatnot" to anybody else. I'm happy & secure with who I am- I am AMY! ;-)

I respect others as they know who they are and it would be presumptous (sp?) of me to judge them nor is really my place to do so.

And better yet, do you think that Creator / Source / God / or however way you believe - is Judging us like we are judging each other? NO. We are just being ridiculous and wasting our energy when we could put our energy to better use and the world would be AWESOME.

Creator / Source / God / etc - is in ALL of US - experiencing LIFE through each of us - so do you think Source Creator is judging the other parts of Self?

;-)

Thanks -

Take care,
Amy

[Silverhawk76]

OK, I am just going to address this comment.
You can't follow your traditional ways without focusing on your Nation. If you try you'll be doing the pan-NDN thing and totally missing the mark.

Hello Suzze,

Can you explain that quote above a bit better as I'm guessing at what you mean but don't want to assume so I'd like a bit more clarification. Thanks. ;-)

Copying and pasting Steel Magnolia's post below with my comments in Bold (how do I put 2 different posts on here using the quotes, BTW?)

I think that you need to practice the traditions of your nation, not someone elses. Let me put this in very simple terms. We might all be apples but we are different kinds of apples. Some are Granny Smiths, some are Red Delicious, some are MacIntosh and so on. We are different we are not all from the same tree. Wannabes are Oranges no matter how hard they try they can't be an apple and more than we can be an orange....not even deep down inside where it's important...

Don't waste your time being someone that you aren't. It doesn't work. And it kills your Spirit when you do that. I know from personal experience and also going through the experience of Domestic Violence. Just BE yourself. I guess that 3 words better explains what I mean in both of my posts - JUST BE YOURSELF.

Fakes and Wannabes seem to think that Native Americans are all the same, and for some reason they seem to think that we are all plains tribes. They come off with that I am ndn down in my heart where it's important to me. I am ndn because I am walking the "red road". I am ndn because I care for Mother Earth. I am ndn because some other pseudo-ndn adopted me and gave me a "native" name. To me this is almost always the red flag of the wannabe nation.

Understood. And I also do understand through another avenue from standing within the Deaf Community - like what does it really mean to be Deaf? Are you REALLY DEAF? Are you Deaf or deaf, can you still be Deaf even though you have Cochlear Implant? Etc.

My path is not to be an ndn. I was born 7/16th Cherokee, I am Native American, my path is that of one of the Creator's humble creatures just trying to be the best human being that I can be. My path is to be a bridge between my ancestors and my children, their children, the generations that follow and anyothers who ask my help along their journey.

After experiencing Domestic Violence and getting out of it and figuring where do I go from such a traumatic experience - I guess the experience has stripped a lot of things off for me. Yes, it has been very much life-changing experience for me but I do find that the basic makeup of who I am is still there regardless of what has happened. I'm simply a happy-go-lucky woman that just loves to smile & laugh. It is such a Blessing to be myself again.

I apologize - I find I'm having a hard time putting all this into words - Sign language is easier *smiles*

Thanks & Take care,
Amy

[Zeke]

They're still around?

This message is hidden because sokoki_wolf is on your ignore list.

Did somebody say something?

[blacktail]

i don't think it's so much as being uncomfortable with one self. it's a matter of a select few ruining it for the rest of us. those that buy in to the stereotypes and only make it worse. i'm sure you all have heard the "indians smoke the wacky tobbaccy in them pipes" same sort of thing. though on the up side it does pose the oppretunity to educate the uninformed. as far as doing your own traditions, i agree to a point. however i see nothing wrong with doing something someone elses way with respect and honor. (attending a powwow/gathering and dancing the "oposite way") myself, i'm haudenosaunee. but i do some things a little lakota here, and a little anishinabe there because these people have also taught me things and they are my elders, those whom i call family and whom i greatly respect. they also deserve to have their ways remembered and passed on as long as you know which is lakota, anishinabe, haudenosaunee.

[Silverhawk76]

i don't think it's so much as being uncomfortable with one self. it's a matter of a select few ruining it for the rest of us. those that buy in to the stereotypes and only make it worse. i'm sure you all have heard the "indians smoke the wacky tobbaccy in them pipes" same sort of thing. though on the up side it does pose the oppretunity to educate the uninformed. as far as doing your own traditions, i agree to a point. however i see nothing wrong with doing something someone elses way with respect and honor. (attending a powwow/gathering and dancing the "oposite way") myself, i'm haudenosaunee. but i do some things a little lakota here, and a little anishinabe there because these people have also taught me things and they are my elders, those whom i call family and whom i greatly respect. they also deserve to have their ways remembered and passed on as long as you know which is lakota, anishinabe, haudenosaunee.

Blacktail,
Yep, stereotypes are pretty harmful for sure - I really dislike this stereotype also "Deaf and Dumb" or even "Deaf Mute" I can however see how hearing people can perceive Deaf people like that. Just like you wrote - it's an opportunity to educate the uninformed / ignorant. I do volunteer my time talking with hearing parents of Deaf children - letting them know what options there are, going out in the Deaf Community and talk about important issues, passing information along, and being a role model to Deaf Youth.

It's also just simply that hearing people consciously and unconsciously pick up information because you hear things all the time, we don't. So we have to get our info another way - either being told by our family, friends, Deaf Community, school, or the internet. It doesn't help that 90% of hearing parents don't even bother to learn sign or communicate with their Deaf child and some parents do abandon their Deaf child at the nearest State school for the Deaf - anyways, I'm going off point here *smile*

I also agree that it's important to be respectful and give credit where it's due.

I'm wondering what we can actively do to help bridge the gap between Elders and Youth and every one in between.

Thanks and take care,
Amy

[steelemagnolia63]

Amy your quotations of my post sort of have me a bit perplexed...


I was trying to impart that you should practice your nations ways, if you got be who you are out of that then I suppose that is what you needed to see... if you are a granny smith then be a granny smith not a red delicious.... and if you are an orange then be the best orange that you can be and be happy being that orange....



After experiencing Domestic Violence and getting out of it and figuring where do I go from such a traumatic experience - I guess the experience has stripped a lot of things off for me. Yes, it has been very much life-changing experience for me but I do find that the basic makeup of who I am is still there regardless of what has happened. I'm simply a happy-go-lucky woman that just loves to smile & laugh. It is such a Blessing to be myself again.

I apologize - I find I'm having a hard time putting all this into words - Sign language is easier *smiles*

Ok I don't really get what this has to do with my path and the path of a Native American but I do sympathize with your pain as a victim of abuse....