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  • #31
    Originally posted by crazywolf
    Hey,

    So according to this law then, every time the moon orbits and goes over my house then its mine right? Hmm I wonder how much moonfront property is appraised at these days eh? Lets not stop there, lets go to Mars, heck all the way to Pluto. And if all the above is true then I want free satelite TV every time that sucker goes over. LOL.

    Seriously I feel like these feather laws, although guiesd under the attempt to preserve a species were aimed at us. They killed our food source and gave us small pox blankets, put our kids in mission schools and force english on them, take our language well why not finish us off and take our spirits too.

    My mother is enrolled, and legally she can sign up for feathers. She decided against is, saying that, even though I could use them for a time, they would get taken when she crossed over, since I am not an enrolled member, they cannot be passed to me, according to the laws right? Secondly, when you sign that paper, (and we all know how NDNs feel about signing papers right) it gives the feds the right to search your house at any time without any kind of warning for feathers that are not legal. It was written right into the application form that came in the mail to us, in the FINE print.

    Next, if you are at a pow wow, dancing your butt off and having a good time, meeting lots of people. Lets say you meet this elder, he likes the way you danced, your singing touched his heart in some way, and he invites you to his house after the pow wow to stay a day or two. You go over, and sit in his back yard, smoke his pipe, and he offers you a feather. If you tell him no, you are deeply gonna offend this guy.

    Finally, I have it under good authority that the feds are going up and down the eastern seaboard, raiding pow wows, ceremonies and just about wherever they can stick their brown noses into searching for feathers. They are also going around the country to sun dances, although this is just a rumor. My question is, why the sudden interest?

    Derek
    Not entirely correct !

    I have discussed this subject with the permit office people , because my children are unable to enroll. My children will be able to posess my feathers , and have several of thier own now. I have provided them with a copy of my permit , proof that they are my children , and a letter stating that I pass those feathers to them. The people stated that that was what I had to do for them to legally posess my feathers !
    It is true that they can ask for an accounting of your feathers , but I've never heard of them doing it !
    Whether you know it or not , the U.S. Fish and Game as well as the State Fish and Game or whatever they call themselves in your area , can come and search your premises at any time and if you ask for a warrant , they will have one within minutes. Those wildlife officers have more authority than about anybody , but will usually not bother anybody , unless there is a complaint !
    Last edited by wardancer; 01-16-2007, 07:34 PM.
    I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


    They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

    There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

    Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
    It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


    sigpic


    There's a chance you might not like me ,

    but there's a bigger

    chance I won't care

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by apacheheart
      ...What you WILL get is alot of phone calls and a "visit"or two from them before you even get the bird....like if you were adopting or something!!And like you said,you'll most likely get pieces from different birds.I've heard horror stories of folks waiting for yearsand then finally getting the package,opening it,and finding the bird or feathers in horrible shape!Or finding that it wasn't what they wanted,contacting them,and being told that that was what they were given so make due.And then of course now they got you on file and will bother you every chance they get.This is no lie folks,You forfeit all your info,therefore you are subject to their scrutiny,and any indiscrepency they find,your feathers,and the right to possess are yanked away.This whole contacting them whenever you want to do things right and stay within the laws is not only a hassle,but can work against you.They can tell you they're gonna take care of it,but it will take a few days or weeks,and the NEXT DAY show up with a warrant to search your premises for illicit feathers.....Hell,you did tell them you had a feather,right??So they have probable cause.I'm not saying that you shouldn't say anything if you feel it's the right thing to do,but it's also said the road to Hell is paved with good intentions....keep smilin'1
      I have recieved many feathers from the repository and I've never been visited and the only phone call I get is when they are ready to ship my feathers. I never hear from them for any other reason. I do know that 2 of the guys filling orders don't give a crap what they send ! The other is always a pleasure to deal with. When I get this one particular guy , I always get the worst he can send me. Maybe he just doesn't like me or something. The main guy always send great stuff and usually just what I want or better ! Now , I'm not stupid , and I'm not going to raise a stink about the 2 , for fear of reprisal , but I pray every time that I get the good guy ! I have heard some ffriends of mine got some part that were in terrible shape. Sometimes they talk you into parts equivilent to a whole bird and that gives them a chance to give out those mismatched parts. If you order a whole bird and they call and offer parts , just tell them you'll wait for the whole bird....have patience
      Being a Tradish , I don't need a ton of tails , so I usually order wing sets and it takes about a year or 14 monthes. Lately I've been ordering 20 misc feathers and you can usually get a couple tail feathers with that. But they are just that MISC. They're not clean , some may be a bit beat up. but you get them in 90 days and sometimes you get some good ones. Just when they call try to be as nice as you can and explain to them what you need. If you're lucky you'll get what you want.
      I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


      They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

      There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

      Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
      It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


      sigpic


      There's a chance you might not like me ,

      but there's a bigger

      chance I won't care

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by straightboy
        As I stated earlier(see above quote)!! The problem I see with this issue is that there are so many ways people can receive feathers other than the government( gifts, awards, roadkill, honors, trading etc.) Have any of you experienced doing it the way the government wants?? It's a hassle. You've got to fill out alot of paperwork. Then on the average in three years later you MAY get your bird?! I say may because I've heard stories of people getting different parts of different birds. This raises another question from me who handles the feathers at the repository?? Do you want that person touching someting as sacred feathers?? I'm not downing the people that work there , but just a question??
        Maybe I'm way off base but...
        In my opinion that feather is not sacred , until we make it so !
        Until then it's just a feather that belongs to the bird or the Creator...until it reaches it's place , where it belongs. I know there are those that will disagree with that way of thinking , but think about it....if that bird dies in the mountains and is never found...would the Creator allow that if it were a sacred item ? Even the poached feathers , are they sacred ? I say not...until they reach the right owner. I think that those feathers are just feathers until we make them sacred to ourselves. Other societies don't consider the eagle sacred...go ask an Albainian or a Austrian if they know that eagle feathers are sacred....for that matter ask a white baptist ! Yes they are sacred to NDN people , but that's because WE made them so.
        When I get those feathers from the repository I first clean them , well actually first I clean myself , then clean the feathers , then I pray and give thanks for them and ask that they are blessed....Then they are sacred ! Just My opinion and my way of doing things....
        I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


        They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

        There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

        Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
        It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


        sigpic


        There's a chance you might not like me ,

        but there's a bigger

        chance I won't care

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by wardancer View Post
          Maybe I'm way off base but...
          In my opinion that feather is not sacred , until we make it so !
          Until then it's just a feather that belongs to the bird or the Creator...until it reaches it's place , where it belongs. I know there are those that will disagree with that way of thinking , but think about it....if that bird dies in the mountains and is never found...would the Creator allow that if it were a sacred item ? Even the poached feathers , are they sacred ? I say not...until they reach the right owner. I think that those feathers are just feathers until we make them sacred to ourselves. Other societies don't consider the eagle sacred...go ask an Albainian or a Austrian if they know that eagle feathers are sacred....for that matter ask a white baptist ! Yes they are sacred to NDN people , but that's because WE made them so.
          When I get those feathers from the repository I first clean them , well actually first I clean myself , then clean the feathers , then I pray and give thanks for them and ask that they are blessed....Then they are sacred ! Just My opinion and my way of doing things....
          ...Very true.It is up to you how sacred the feathers become,and even then I see some dancers treat them like some accessory they need to go with their outfit,and if you pull them aside and tell them,they get all offended about it,but continue to make the same mistakes.As for the calls and visits thing,it seems that if you're in a state with a pretty high NDN populace,OK for example,they tend to be less likely to bother,unless of course theres a problem,and lots of folks I know are afraid to put in multiple requests,for fear that thay will call attention to themselves.I've gotten feathers from the repository,and some of them were really beat up,but I kept them anyway and now wouldn't think to part with them.I take care of them just as much as the one's in good shape....keep smilin'1

          Comment


          • #35
            Thanks Wardancer, you have said things well. I received my bird from one of the repositories, myself. I have just requested the one bird because I have no need for any more Eagle Feathers. I'm not a Tradish' dancer so I don't need so many feathers, no Bustle here. I know of your families situation and since you were told this is the way I want to thank you for the info. My other (?) is what about those Tribal Members who have lost their Fed. Rec.? I know that the Delawares of OK lost their Fed. Rec. recently. How are they to defend their right to their Feathers? Wardancer, as you know, when we first received our feathers years ago we were able to honor friends who aren't Fed. Rec. ,or even not NDN at all, with an Eagle Feather or part. How do we account for these Feathers/Parts?
            BOB

            Comment


            • #36
              I don't know , Bob , I guess you'd have to make up a believable story ! LOL Maybe a tornado swooped down and blew them all away ! LOL
              I've never heard of them asking for an accounting , but that doesn't mean they couldn't. According to their rules you are supposed to keep a record of when and who you gift feathers to....now personally , I think it's non of their business , but that's just me ! I'll make up something if that time ever comes !
              As far as tribes that lost their status.....I can't answer that ! Next time I call out there , I'll ask about that.
              I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


              They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

              There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

              Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
              It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


              sigpic


              There's a chance you might not like me ,

              but there's a bigger

              chance I won't care

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by CHEROSAGE View Post
                Thanks Wardancer, you have said things well. I received my bird from one of the repositories, myself. I have just requested the one bird because I have no need for any more Eagle Feathers. I'm not a Tradish' dancer so I don't need so many feathers, no Bustle here. I know of your families situation and since you were told this is the way I want to thank you for the info. My other (?) is what about those Tribal Members who have lost their Fed. Rec.? I know that the Delawares of OK lost their Fed. Rec. recently. How are they to defend their right to their Feathers? Wardancer, as you know, when we first received our feathers years ago we were able to honor friends who aren't Fed. Rec. ,or even not NDN at all, with an Eagle Feather or part. How do we account for these Feathers/Parts?
                You bring up a good point, about tribes who have been terminated. I read a case where some Indians in the southwest, forget where, were members of terminated tribes and they were found to be unable to possess eagle feathers. As for the Delawares, technically we weren't terminated- we just lost status and became part of the Cherokee Nation. But I've heard Chad Smith won't approve any more eagle requests so I don't know how that goes...

                Comment


                • #38
                  all i can say is that if contemp trad dancers didnt need 3 birds for these outfits and bustles they make, the problem wouldnt be as big. they arent sacred, they are bling.

                  also, i understand the white folks who get them also contribute to the problem.

                  The real question is.....Why do they want them?
                  Because they are sacred? heck no!

                  They want to look cool like the contemp trad NDN dancers!!!

                  Now that the Chicken dance is getting big, there will be a shortage of pheasant feathers.

                  When I first started dancing I used to be jealous of the people with the real feathers. It became a quest to get real feathers. I would be looking around the the ground on the highways and in fields, I was obsessed with finding at least 1 feather! I took a 3 week trip out west, only saw 1 eagle, and scoured the ground around where he was sitting hoping to find a feather.

                  Now I could care less. I now understand that I only wanted them so I would look good.

                  Its not worth it.
                  There are 2 types of people in the world...
                  Really stupid people who think they are smart
                  and
                  Really smart people who think they are smart.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by eap7 View Post
                    You bring up a good point, about tribes who have been terminated. I read a case where some Indians in the southwest, forget where, were members of terminated tribes and they were found to be unable to possess eagle feathers. As for the Delawares, technically we weren't terminated- we just lost status and became part of the Cherokee Nation. But I've heard Chad Smith won't approve any more eagle requests so I don't know how that goes...
                    Hey eap7 : 1 person does not "approve" eagle requests. Youhave to send a form , to the tribe , that they fill out to certify you are a legit tribal member. There is another form to send to a known holy man in the tribe , and it certifies that the feathers will be used for religous purposes. Both forms then go to the permit office for verification. Once verified your name goes on the list. Another thing , this is only done the first time , after that you just re-order !
                    Now I don't know yet about tribes that lose status....seems if someone was already approved , they wouldn't have to re-approve....I'll see if I can find out !
                    I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


                    They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

                    There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

                    Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
                    It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


                    sigpic


                    There's a chance you might not like me ,

                    but there's a bigger

                    chance I won't care

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by wardancer View Post
                      Hey eap7 : 1 person does not "approve" eagle requests. Youhave to send a form , to the tribe , that they fill out to certify you are a legit tribal member. There is another form to send to a known holy man in the tribe , and it certifies that the feathers will be used for religous purposes. Both forms then go to the permit office for verification. Once verified your name goes on the list. Another thing , this is only done the first time , after that you just re-order !
                      Now I don't know yet about tribes that lose status....seems if someone was already approved , they wouldn't have to re-approve....I'll see if I can find out !
                      Yeah I know, I have an order in right now, but I'm saying I had heard Chad Smith told whomever in the CNO to not approve any more requests for eagle feathers. This was just gossip so I don't know if its right. If someone had a permit then their tribe is terminated, they legally can't have feathers anymore, from what I understand.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Feathers Issue

                        Like many threads on this site - this subject has been talked about so many times. And again there are some great posts and some great discussions here just like at those other threads.

                        BUT - like some have said many times in the past and even at this thread - when regards to this subject you really need to actually read the laws.

                        There is way too much "I heard that..." and "I was told this... " and so forth.

                        With access to the Internet you can get the complete full edition of all the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Laws and all the laws regarding each and every U.S. State and U.S. Territory. I urge everybody to read them and stop relying on rumor, hearsay and more.

                        Once you read the laws you may be very surprised in what you find out. Being Federally Recognized is not a blanket to protect you. You do need papers for each item. The laws are not just for birds, they include many other animals and even plants. Some people don't realize that the DNR could come after you for use of an endangered plant and not your feathers!

                        This is not just a Native American Issue. Other Cultures have and still value many animals and their parts for religious and cultural reasons and need them for many religious and cultural ceremonies, etc. This is well known.

                        Finally, with regards to Eagles - some of the laws are actually new in thoughts of time - the Bald Eagle Act was passed in 1940 and it was amended to the Eagle Act in 1962 to include Golden Eagles and The Endangered Species Act was not passed until 1973. Others are very old like the Weeks-McLean Law of 1913 and The Migratory Bird Act of 1918.

                        I have feathers and have papers for each – heck some I don’t need papers I just need a receipt. Yes, for all you “younguns”, those of us “old folks” can remember when you could buy Eagle Feathers out of the store and out of the catalog.

                        Again, when in doubt, I urge everybody to read the laws and understand what they really say.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Tom Iron Eagle- you bring up some very good points! Liked your post. I've read the laws because its a very interesting legal issue to me, and what I'm wondering is-

                          has anyone actually personally known someone who had feathers confiscated from them (either federally recognized tribal members or not)? Who went to jail and/or were fined?

                          I'm wondering if this is another law that isn't really enforced. Because of the Migratory Bird Act, its illegal to pick up a seagull feather from the beach but I see this all the time. Its illegal to sell macaw feathers but they are all over ebay, in catalogs, etc. Heck it was illegal for Indians to be within the city limits of Boston until 2005 but no one was getting the boot LOL. So I'm wondering if people have personal knowledge of these laws being enforced or are they yet another unenforceable statue?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            crazy horse

                            Originally posted by Coyot_In_The_House View Post
                            "One does not own the land upon which the people walk...."

                            Tashunka Witko
                            i gifted all my wambli, ive got 1 i pray with.ive got the papers still for the ones gifted.
                            sigpicMITAKUYE OYASIN... "then I was standing on the highest mountain of them all , and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world . and while i stood there I saw more than I can tell . and I Under Stood more then I saw . for I Was Seeing in a Sacred manner the Shapes of All . Hehaka Sapa. dec 1863-aug 17 or 19 , 1950.. listen online TO KILI 90.1 FM porcupine butte

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Papers?

                              That's the whole point of my posts....?

                              Muck! Papers....

                              We need an uprising, or a revolution or some dam thing....

                              Conspiracy Theorists of the world UNITE!!!
                              Last edited by Coyot_In_The_House; 01-24-2007, 02:08 PM. Reason: 2 many "Good Indians"
                              "She also has a very soft skin. The only trouble with snake women is they copulate with horses, which makes them strange to me. She say's she doesn't. That's why I call her "Doesn't Like Horses". But, of course, she's lying."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by eap7 View Post
                                ...what I'm wondering is-

                                has anyone actually personally known someone who had feathers confiscated from them (either federally recognized tribal members or not)? Who went to jail and/or were fined?

                                I'm wondering if this is another law that isn't really enforced.
                                Oh, yes it is. I do know someone who was traveling with regalia and did not have her papers. She had a heck of a hassel getting them back.

                                Besides, just check out www.indianz.com and www.narf.org . They have articles on numerous cases.

                                Originally posted by eap7 View Post
                                Its illegal to sell macaw feathers but they are all over ebay, in catalogs, etc.
                                Really? I thought it was trade in imported -- not captive breed -- birds that was illegal.

                                Comment

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                                  This info was posted on MySpace. Just sharing....

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