Congress tells Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma: No Funding

[CherokeeTsisqua]

I'm not Cherokee but it seems that what is happening to them is just wrong. I don't think the Freedmen really want to be Cherokee, they just want all the benefits.......

Then why do the freedmen Cherokees go to the stomp grounds, speak Cherokee, have hog frys and live just as much like Cherokees as anyone else? Because they do have Cherokee blood. They are of mixed ancestry. That's really the only difference between them and Cherokees mixed with white blood.

And you know most Indian people want their benefits like health care even if it is the worst in the country.

[Kakeeya]

I'm not Cherokee but it seems that what is happening to them is just wrong. I don't think the Freedmen really want to be Cherokee, they just want all the benefits.......

[CherokeeTsisqua]

Just because your ancestors were listed in the Dawes rolls doesn't mean they were Indian!

If you want to know the truth, they only Indians in the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma are the original Dawes enrollees because they are enrolled and have their own roll numbers.

Everyone else is only a descendant of an original enrollee until Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma reorganized under the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act (OIWA) and reopens the rolls that were closed. Although everyone's membership card says they are cherokee citizens they are really not until they have their own roll number and when the last enrollees die, legally there will be no Cherokees left. Only their descendants.

[CHEROSAGE]

Cont': The Freedmen didn't try to secede from the CNO BUT rather were voted out as did the Seminole. I should think that if the Cherokee Freedmen get their recognition the same should apply to the Seminole Freedmen.

The whole principle that is being ignored is that these Freedmen whether Black or Mixed-blood were given acknowledgement by the, at that time Dept of War now Interior, BIA. They were appropriated for by the US Government. The Freedmen were not necessarily treatied for by the Cherokee, BUT rather given to the 5 Tribes.

[CHEROSAGE]

eap7: We must remember that the Delaware seceded from the CNO to try to gain their own individualism and recognition. I suppose! Not ALL of the Shawnee fell into the mixing pot of "disfavor", if you will. IF, you remember a certain Shawnee leader, wqho is a friend, wanted to make a go of things for his Shawnee people away from the CNO. I know that the CNO have told certain Shawnee that they had an option to remain just Shawnee or declare themselves as Cherokee. I, also, know that the White Oak Stomp Grounds is in dispute as the CNO were claiming it as Cherokee land, no longer Shawnee.

I agree that the Delawre are getting a raw deal and have stated so in many other postings. I don't agree with Chad in his testifying against the Delawres of Oklahoma in the Supreme Court. I don't approve of his way of treating these Shawnee, either. It would be just as easy to say that these people are now strong enough to be independent and have good relations with them, than to deny them the Fed. Rec. they deserve. This is simply childish get backs for seceding. I remember when several States made this same move and a longer costly war broke out.

[eap7]

To get on my soapbox- it really bothers me that the Freedmen case has gotten a lot more attention than the Delaware Tribe of Indians losing federal recognition to another tribe. Nothing like that had ever happened before, and it sets a dangerous precedent that I believe all Indian people should know about. Plus the CNO is trying to do the same thing to the Shawnees. Maybe the Freedman being disenrolled is easier for people to relate to because the people in question are black. I guess it then gets boiled down to "they're being racist"? And in today's world that's more noteworthy?

[eap7]

The thing about Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma is that they sued the Delaware Tribe who were also adopted like the Shawnees and freedmen through treaties.

Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma insisted that because of that treaty the Delawares are now Cherokee citizens and should have their federal funding and recognition taken away. And that is what the 10th Circuit court did to the Delawares.

And those same rules apply to the Cherokee freedmen, but when it comes to them the tribe wants to boot them out. You can't have it both ways. It's gotta be one way or the other. So if Smith wants the freedmen out, he has to let the Delawares go to. And they want to be released because they retain their own culture, religion and language.

Yes thank you for pointing this out. I agree with you 100%. The CNO can't have it both ways- they can't enfranchise Indian people who have our own culture, religion, language, gov't, etc, because of a treaty, and then simultaneously disenfranchise another separate group who happen to be black, because of a treaty.

[John Cornsilk]

I suppose, eh. I've noted a discrepancy in my own family's records when contrasted with what the Dawes rolls said and what other census documents recorded. It depended on who was looking at you how much indian they thought you were...

So, in today's reality, how do you rectify this? If a person's ancestors were mixed, Cherokee and black, and the Dawes commission just lumped them in with the Freedmen, without giving them a chance to own up to their full ancestry, how could they prove that they were truly Cherokee - or should the CNO just relent and accept all listed Freedmen as citizens? Hard to see a truly fair way to work through this situation.

The answer for smith and cno is simple, obey the law, and people babbling on the issue could try and learn a little before posting bs, a good place to start is Cormsilks then contact me I can give you all kinds of links to learn Cherokee Stuff!

[NorthofAda]

Northofada, that is true, BUT often the whites who were enrolling did as they wanted. IF a person who appeared Black showed up to enroll then often they were automatically enrolled as a Freedman and not given the oppertunity to give their mixed blood pedigree. Same as those who were given lesser blood quantums. Example, someone who may have been 1/2 could have been enrolled as 1/4 or less.

I suppose, eh. I've noted a discrepancy in my own family's records when contrasted with what the Dawes rolls said and what other census documents recorded. It depended on who was looking at you how much indian they thought you were...

So, in today's reality, how do you rectify this? If a person's ancestors were mixed, Cherokee and black, and the Dawes commission just lumped them in with the Freedmen, without giving them a chance to own up to their full ancestry, how could they prove that they were truly Cherokee - or should the CNO just relent and accept all listed Freedmen as citizens? Hard to see a truly fair way to work through this situation.

[CHEROSAGE]

Northofada, that is true, BUT often the whites who were enrolling did as they wanted. IF a person who appeared Black showed up to enroll then often they were automatically enrolled as a Freedman and not given the oppertunity to give their mixed blood pedigree. Same as those who were given lesser blood quantums. Example, someone who may have been 1/2 could have been enrolled as 1/4 or less.

[CHEROSAGE]

Hey Cherokee Tsisqua, O Si yo, We must also remember that not all Cherokees in the War between the States fought for the Confederacy. I had family anscesters on both sides. We must remember that the Ross(ers) fought for the Union and the Watie(rs) were the pro-confederates. Yes, there were more or at least it seems there were more followers of Stand Watie at the time. I had an anscester who helped in the Ft. Scott siege. I had family at the Pea Ridge. I had family who were Slave owners and family who didn't. So the blanket statement is false.

I also, would like to point out that not all Cherokee Citizens voted for the removal. This was not a unanimous vote to oust the Freedmen.

[NorthofAda]

From the CNO website..."To be eligible for CDIB/Tribal Citizenship with the Cherokee Nation, you must be able to provide documents that connect you to an enrolled lineal ancestor, who is listed on the (DAWES ROLL) FINAL ROLLS OF CITIZENS AND FREEDMEN OF THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, Cherokee Nation. This roll was taken between 1899-1906 of Citizens and Freedmen residing in Indian Territory (now NE Oklahoma)."

Just because your ancestors were listed in the Dawes rolls doesn't mean they were Indian. In my own research I've read quite a bit about this. Intermarried whites, freedmen, etc., were listed on the rolls in their respective categories, but weren't considered tribal members unless they were categorized as BB, or "By Blood." I could go live in Mexico, for example, and couldn't claim to be Mexican just because I lived there. The same was true of the Freedmen. They lived in IT when the Dawes was compiled, but they weren't Indian. The US Gov't is wrong in trying to force the CNO to reinstate people who weren't part of that nation in the first place. If you're of mixed ancestry, black and Indian, and you have legitimate ancestors on rolls, then fine. Just because your ancestors lived in IT back in the day doesn't make you an Indian!

[CherokeeTsisqua]

Wiyan

Also...I notice that in this story, the black people continue to idenitify themselves SEPERATE from Native American people, which is so telling. There is no unity on their part, either.

The thing about Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma is that they sued the Delaware Tribe who were also adopted like the Shawnees and freedmen through treaties.

Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma insisted that because of that treaty the Delawares are now Cherokee citizens and should have their federal funding and recognition taken away. And that is what the 10th Circuit court did to the Delawares.

And those same rules apply to the Cherokee freedmen, but when it comes to them the tribe wants to boot them out. You can't have it both ways. It's gotta be one way or the other. So if Smith wants the freedmen out, he has to let the Delawares go to. And they want to be released because they retain their own culture, religion and language.

[Lakota Wiyan]

Also...I notice that in this story, the black people continue to idenitify themselves SEPERATE from Native American people, which is so telling. There is no unity on their part, either.

[Lakota Wiyan]

Does full citizen rights mean that the tribe has to ignore it's own right to tribal self determination? This makes me cry, because its the US Government punishing the current tribal members for a treaty that was signed so many generations ago, that grants rights to people who do NOT share the same blood lines as the REAL Cherokee people. I am the last person to condemn another race, but there is an entire CONTINENT where they can trace their roots and find their ethnic identity. And since WHEN does the US Gov. uphold it's own treaties with Native American tribes. I say, until the Laramie Treaty and countless other broken treaties, are upheld, THIS treaty is just as void as they seem to be. If the tribes are to be considered soverign in the best sense of the word, the US Gov needs to step back and let the Cherokee tribe identify itself as it's people determine, which they did. If these former slaves descendants are so concerned about belonging to this tribe, the decision by Congress should outrage and appall them, and they should NEVER allow this gross injustice, this withholding of tribal funds necessary to house and care for its people. This just sickens me, and I hope that this violation by the Freedman against the true Cherokee is settled soon, so that the Cherokee people can regain it's footing and try and keep it's head up. FREEDMEN...You are FREE...so stop infringing on Native American people and using the greatest enemy, the US Gov against us. Have some dignity.