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  • Fake (wannabe) dance groups



    Boozhoo niji,

    First of all, let me say that I went to AIA, had a wonderful time there, had fun dancing and did not have any major problems except for this one. I want to get other peoples reaction to this.

    There is this group of dancers I have known about for a couple of years, lets refer to it as F troop. I have been watching them for a while, they get hired on by various pow wows in Florida and I can say honestly I was not impressed. The regalia is sub-par, the dancers themselves might not be too bad but the guy that runs the whole affair, we will refer to him as Mr. X, only drums during these shows, does not sing.

    Well I pretty much just ignored them. The bustles on the fancy dancers were made so poorly that the dancers tear them apart just dancing. They are mostly flat and lain on top of each other, and a few of them are actually only semi circles. Now some of these kids look like they could actually dance, but they lack a lot of teaching that would keep them out of trouble at a traditional pow wow, like watching where they were going. I had trouble with them 2 years ago, running up behind me, and I politely asked them to keep space. Last year I ran into the same problem during Grand Entry, they gave me the excuse that I was backing up.

    Finally this year, they put them all the way back at the end of the line and everything was cool. One of them came up to me Saturday afternoon and asked me something. I couldn't remember exactly what the question was, but I was honest, I told him about his bustles and how he could make a better set. Well later that day, Mr. X came up to me, introduced himself, and said that I had been saying some things about his work. Well duh. He told me to mind my own business. I said, I usually do.


    So later, another boy, I don't think he was part of the group, but he came up to me and asked if I would show this one young man some dance steps. This kid was a fancy dancer wearing Gator colors. I looked over and saw Mr. X standing right there, and I simply said, I can't. I saw the young man look down at the ground all disappointed, then I looked at the one that came to me, and pulled him to the side and explained, I would, but I have been approached by a higher authority that I have to mind my own business. Well, that word got around quick.

    The next morning, I was combing out my goats and was approached by the A.D. He came in a good way, gave me a prayer tie, and asked if he could sit in my camp. This man is probably close to twice my age and surprised me with his manners, I thought this was his first time, or very close to his first time being an A.D. I invited him to sit, and sat and listened to him, continuing to comb out my goats. He first of all stated his great admiration of myself and seemed a bit nervous approaching me. I told him that everything was cool, and he could say what he needed to. He asked about why I told the kids yesterday I would not teach, because I am someone they admire and look up to. I explained things and he nodded and understood. Oh yes Mr. X has a history here.

    It seems that, he has a store in the area, he signs kids up that come into his store to dance. He would make all the outfits, teach them how to dance, and take them to pow wows. They put on the show, and at the same time, he promotes his store. Its a neat little operation. So now I am understanding some things. I wonder... could this be considered as exploitation?

    Also, they go to pow wows, and show dances of the different kinds, even the eagle dance and hoop dance, and average Joe public comes to watch and accepts this as being Indian.

    Finally, Mr. X has a iron grip on his flock. I was told by a friend of mine there, that two years ago, he caught a couple of those boys stealing my moves. I use the term lightly, could just say copy or whatever, he said steal. I think its pretty cool though. But when they went off to do their own thing with my moves Mr. X steps in and tells them to NOT dance that way, dance the way he taught them. Its either that or quit the F troop. I was told that one kid actually took off the bustles he was "given" to wear and threw them on the ground and left. And if its the kid I think it is I saw him at Chambers a year ago with a new (and much better) outfit, and being quite the fancy dancer.

    Love it or hate it, the man is doing one thing good, and that is keeping these kids off the street and away from some of the bad crap that goes on in our cities. The bad part is these kids are going to grow up not knowing any better, might go to a real pow wow somewhere and wind up seriously insulting someome, out of ignorance.

    I thought about doing this myself, starting a dance group. The only difference between me and Mr. X would be that... well there are a lot of differences actually. I would not tell the kids exactly how to dance. Our dances are, after all, open to some interpretation. There are guidelines but its not exactly choreographed. I don't think I would ever threaten an kid that wanted to go off and do his own thing by kicking him out of the group. And I would teach or have someone help teach the steps and how to make the regalia, so it would be his/her regalia, not something they would have to leave behind should they leave the group. Finally I would not try to tackle this by myself. For one thing traditionally I can no more teach a lady how to dance than she teach me to dance. I would hire the best I could find in each dance to show these kids what to do. And I dont think I would promote a store using someone elses labor. I would promote the group though, get us more gigs elsewhere.

    There, I said what I wanted to say. I think overall what hurts me the most is this guy is using these kids, making them do soemthing they think they want to do.

    Derek
    I believe in something I want to believe, not what someone wants me to believe.

  • #2
    This is what gets me and has always gotten me about Florida. People act like they are oblivious to what really goes on in the powwow world. All you have to do it take a look at sites like this one to see a ton of photos and videos of how dances and regalia should look. I cannnot for the life of me figure why this are so screwed up there. It's one of a few things, people don't care or they think they know it all. The latter is probably more likely the case.

    If it had been me in that situation...I would have showed the kid some stuff... this is still a free country right? I could care less what Mr. X wanted...he's not the one that asked for help. If he approached me...I would have offered my same helping hand to get his act together.

    It's unfortunate that an organization like AIA has dwindled to what it is today. I remember the days when drums like Eagle Claw were there invited drums and there were hundreds of dancers that came. Now you get them hiring the "F troop" as you call it. I did not go this year and was only there a few hours last year...what a disappointment. I will not go back as long as they continue to bring in such poor quality entertainment, singers, and dancers. If we all start to do that...maybe the dances there will get better.

    Too bad the leadership of the past no longer has a presence in the organzation.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'd worry about Mr. X too, but the only thing I could think of to do if I were in your shoes is go on doing my thing, talking to the kids if they want to, and wait for them to drift away from Mr. X as they learn the right things, which will probably happen. But if he's that controlling, I'd try not to be too confrontational - he could talk it out on his kids.

      Comment


      • #4
        Knock the silly M*$#@& F*&^%$ on his AZZ!!!!


        just my .02.............anyway........
        sigpic

        ...And shephards we shall be. For thee my lord, for thee. Power hath descended forth from thy hand. That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command. So we shall flow a river forth to thee. And teeming with souls shall it ever be. E Nomini Patri, E Fili, E Spiritu Sancti.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by crazywolf View Post


          Boozhoo niji,

          First of all, let me say that I went to AIA, had a wonderful time there, had fun dancing and did not have any major problems except for this one. I want to get other peoples reaction to this.

          There is this group of dancers I have known about for a couple of years, lets refer to it as F troop. I have been watching them for a while, they get hired on by various pow wows in Florida and I can say honestly I was not impressed. The regalia is sub-par, the dancers themselves might not be too bad but the guy that runs the whole affair, we will refer to him as Mr. X, only drums during these shows, does not sing.

          Well I pretty much just ignored them. The bustles on the fancy dancers were made so poorly that the dancers tear them apart just dancing. They are mostly flat and lain on top of each other, and a few of them are actually only semi circles. Now some of these kids look like they could actually dance, but they lack a lot of teaching that would keep them out of trouble at a traditional pow wow, like watching where they were going. I had trouble with them 2 years ago, running up behind me, and I politely asked them to keep space. Last year I ran into the same problem during Grand Entry, they gave me the excuse that I was backing up.

          Finally this year, they put them all the way back at the end of the line and everything was cool. One of them came up to me Saturday afternoon and asked me something. I couldn't remember exactly what the question was, but I was honest, I told him about his bustles and how he could make a better set. Well later that day, Mr. X came up to me, introduced himself, and said that I had been saying some things about his work. Well duh. He told me to mind my own business. I said, I usually do.


          So later, another boy, I don't think he was part of the group, but he came up to me and asked if I would show this one young man some dance steps. This kid was a fancy dancer wearing Gator colors. I looked over and saw Mr. X standing right there, and I simply said, I can't. I saw the young man look down at the ground all disappointed, then I looked at the one that came to me, and pulled him to the side and explained, I would, but I have been approached by a higher authority that I have to mind my own business. Well, that word got around quick.

          The next morning, I was combing out my goats and was approached by the A.D. He came in a good way, gave me a prayer tie, and asked if he could sit in my camp. This man is probably close to twice my age and surprised me with his manners, I thought this was his first time, or very close to his first time being an A.D. I invited him to sit, and sat and listened to him, continuing to comb out my goats. He first of all stated his great admiration of myself and seemed a bit nervous approaching me. I told him that everything was cool, and he could say what he needed to. He asked about why I told the kids yesterday I would not teach, because I am someone they admire and look up to. I explained things and he nodded and understood. Oh yes Mr. X has a history here.

          It seems that, he has a store in the area, he signs kids up that come into his store to dance. He would make all the outfits, teach them how to dance, and take them to pow wows. They put on the show, and at the same time, he promotes his store. Its a neat little operation. So now I am understanding some things. I wonder... could this be considered as exploitation?

          Also, they go to pow wows, and show dances of the different kinds, even the eagle dance and hoop dance, and average Joe public comes to watch and accepts this as being Indian.

          Finally, Mr. X has a iron grip on his flock. I was told by a friend of mine there, that two years ago, he caught a couple of those boys stealing my moves. I use the term lightly, could just say copy or whatever, he said steal. I think its pretty cool though. But when they went off to do their own thing with my moves Mr. X steps in and tells them to NOT dance that way, dance the way he taught them. Its either that or quit the F troop. I was told that one kid actually took off the bustles he was "given" to wear and threw them on the ground and left. And if its the kid I think it is I saw him at Chambers a year ago with a new (and much better) outfit, and being quite the fancy dancer.

          Love it or hate it, the man is doing one thing good, and that is keeping these kids off the street and away from some of the bad crap that goes on in our cities. The bad part is these kids are going to grow up not knowing any better, might go to a real pow wow somewhere and wind up seriously insulting someome, out of ignorance.

          I thought about doing this myself, starting a dance group. The only difference between me and Mr. X would be that... well there are a lot of differences actually. I would not tell the kids exactly how to dance. Our dances are, after all, open to some interpretation. There are guidelines but its not exactly choreographed. I don't think I would ever threaten an kid that wanted to go off and do his own thing by kicking him out of the group. And I would teach or have someone help teach the steps and how to make the regalia, so it would be his/her regalia, not something they would have to leave behind should they leave the group. Finally I would not try to tackle this by myself. For one thing traditionally I can no more teach a lady how to dance than she teach me to dance. I would hire the best I could find in each dance to show these kids what to do. And I dont think I would promote a store using someone elses labor. I would promote the group though, get us more gigs elsewhere.

          There, I said what I wanted to say. I think overall what hurts me the most is this guy is using these kids, making them do soemthing they think they want to do.

          Derek
          I think it's sad that circumstances are such there that you aren't given the liberty to teach someone who asked you for help in a good way. I would think someone like this F-troop leader, if he was really wanting the best for his kids, he would welcome input from someone like you with the skill and the knowledge and willingness to share. No adult should be given the authority to threaten and dictate to a bunch of kids like that.

          I hope you do get an opportunity to take some kids under your wing and teach them to dance. They could then learn what it means to dance for enjoyment, not because some dictator is lording things over them. And they'd look a lot better dancing, no doubt about that, with your input and guidance.

          Don't let this discourage you from sharing your knowledge in the future - you sound like you'd make a great teacher!

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Derek, You should start a program teaching, your good. I like your moves. I under stand respecting his wished but Damn it's just wrong for him to be like that, how are those kids going to learn & have their own unique style?
            don't you be wastin' all your money
            on syrup and honey because i'm sweet enough





            Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile.

            Comment


            • #7
              Support those who wish to learn..

              I'm all for pro-learning. If somebody wishes to learn new steps to dance to, then I say teach them.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree with .50....and can think of 2 good reasons, left and right.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 50cal View Post
                  Knock the silly M*$#@& F*&^%$ on his AZZ!!!!


                  just my .02.............anyway........
                  You know.. that's partly why one of my friends up here has the rep for being an ahole... well that and he can be one... but mostly because powwows up here were started by a bunch of hobbyists and nu age wannabes and were really goofy. My friend and hubby started throwing their own and making them more traditional and would be told by some of the wannabes that what they were doing was wrong... and mind you, my hubby is from a powwow throwing family who started one of the biggest powwows in Oklahoma... so it's not like these two men don't know what they are doing.....

                  Instead of being polite crazywolf... maybe you need to open your mouth a little wider and tell this man what he's doing is wrong... it's him that should be minding his business if he does'nt know what he's doing.. not the other way around.
                  Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Blackbear View Post
                    You know.. that's partly why one of my friends up here has the rep for being an ahole... well that and he can be one... but mostly because powwows up here were started by a bunch of hobbyists and nu age wannabes and were really goofy. My friend and hubby started throwing their own and making them more traditional and would be told by some of the wannabes that what they were doing was wrong... and mind you, my hubby is from a powwow throwing family who started one of the biggest powwows in Oklahoma... so it's not like these two men don't know what they are doing.....

                    Instead of being polite crazywolf... maybe you need to open your mouth a little wider and tell this man what he's doing is wrong... it's him that should be minding his business if he does'nt know what he's doing.. not the other way around.
                    and always take the advice of a fiesty pregnant bear....
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by crazywolf View Post


                      Boozhoo niji,

                      First of all, let me say that I went to AIA, had a wonderful time there, had fun dancing and did not have any major problems except for this one. I want to get other peoples reaction to this.

                      There is this group of dancers I have known about for a couple of years, lets refer to it as F troop. I have been watching them for a while, they get hired on by various pow wows in Florida and I can say honestly I was not impressed. The regalia is sub-par, the dancers themselves might not be too bad but the guy that runs the whole affair, we will refer to him as Mr. X, only drums during these shows, does not sing.

                      Well I pretty much just ignored them. The bustles on the fancy dancers were made so poorly that the dancers tear them apart just dancing. They are mostly flat and lain on top of each other, and a few of them are actually only semi circles. Now some of these kids look like they could actually dance, but they lack a lot of teaching that would keep them out of trouble at a traditional pow wow, like watching where they were going. I had trouble with them 2 years ago, running up behind me, and I politely asked them to keep space. Last year I ran into the same problem during Grand Entry, they gave me the excuse that I was backing up.

                      Finally this year, they put them all the way back at the end of the line and everything was cool. One of them came up to me Saturday afternoon and asked me something. I couldn't remember exactly what the question was, but I was honest, I told him about his bustles and how he could make a better set. Well later that day, Mr. X came up to me, introduced himself, and said that I had been saying some things about his work. Well duh. He told me to mind my own business. I said, I usually do.


                      So later, another boy, I don't think he was part of the group, but he came up to me and asked if I would show this one young man some dance steps. This kid was a fancy dancer wearing Gator colors. I looked over and saw Mr. X standing right there, and I simply said, I can't. I saw the young man look down at the ground all disappointed, then I looked at the one that came to me, and pulled him to the side and explained, I would, but I have been approached by a higher authority that I have to mind my own business. Well, that word got around quick.

                      The next morning, I was combing out my goats and was approached by the A.D. He came in a good way, gave me a prayer tie, and asked if he could sit in my camp. This man is probably close to twice my age and surprised me with his manners, I thought this was his first time, or very close to his first time being an A.D. I invited him to sit, and sat and listened to him, continuing to comb out my goats. He first of all stated his great admiration of myself and seemed a bit nervous approaching me. I told him that everything was cool, and he could say what he needed to. He asked about why I told the kids yesterday I would not teach, because I am someone they admire and look up to. I explained things and he nodded and understood. Oh yes Mr. X has a history here.

                      It seems that, he has a store in the area, he signs kids up that come into his store to dance. He would make all the outfits, teach them how to dance, and take them to pow wows. They put on the show, and at the same time, he promotes his store. Its a neat little operation. So now I am understanding some things. I wonder... could this be considered as exploitation?

                      Also, they go to pow wows, and show dances of the different kinds, even the eagle dance and hoop dance, and average Joe public comes to watch and accepts this as being Indian.

                      Finally, Mr. X has a iron grip on his flock. I was told by a friend of mine there, that two years ago, he caught a couple of those boys stealing my moves. I use the term lightly, could just say copy or whatever, he said steal. I think its pretty cool though. But when they went off to do their own thing with my moves Mr. X steps in and tells them to NOT dance that way, dance the way he taught them. Its either that or quit the F troop. I was told that one kid actually took off the bustles he was "given" to wear and threw them on the ground and left. And if its the kid I think it is I saw him at Chambers a year ago with a new (and much better) outfit, and being quite the fancy dancer.

                      Love it or hate it, the man is doing one thing good, and that is keeping these kids off the street and away from some of the bad crap that goes on in our cities. The bad part is these kids are going to grow up not knowing any better, might go to a real pow wow somewhere and wind up seriously insulting someome, out of ignorance.

                      I thought about doing this myself, starting a dance group. The only difference between me and Mr. X would be that... well there are a lot of differences actually. I would not tell the kids exactly how to dance. Our dances are, after all, open to some interpretation. There are guidelines but its not exactly choreographed. I don't think I would ever threaten an kid that wanted to go off and do his own thing by kicking him out of the group. And I would teach or have someone help teach the steps and how to make the regalia, so it would be his/her regalia, not something they would have to leave behind should they leave the group. Finally I would not try to tackle this by myself. For one thing traditionally I can no more teach a lady how to dance than she teach me to dance. I would hire the best I could find in each dance to show these kids what to do. And I dont think I would promote a store using someone elses labor. I would promote the group though, get us more gigs elsewhere.

                      There, I said what I wanted to say. I think overall what hurts me the most is this guy is using these kids, making them do soemthing they think they want to do.

                      Derek
                      HAHAHA I know exactly what group you're talking about. I was told waaaaaay back when AIA was a really good powwow that they had reputable people in their group that tried to help them out but eventually they got pushed out and they no longer wanted anyone to help them. I also don't think that Mr. X is entirely to blame. I remember last year when we were lining up for GE I was standing in front of their fancy shawl dancers with my friend and I overheard them discussing how they didn't like another shawl dancer because she requested a doublebeat and they didn't know how to it and how they gonna push her out the line. Ridiculous stuff. Also supposedly they get paid for every performance/event they attend and dance at but they never stay very long. Ususally they stay long enough to go in GE and an exhibition.
                      Don't ever stop dancing

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PrairieTX View Post
                        This is what gets me and has always gotten me about Florida. People act like they are oblivious to what really goes on in the powwow world. All you have to do it take a look at sites like this one to see a ton of photos and videos of how dances and regalia should look. I cannnot for the life of me figure why this are so screwed up there. It's one of a few things, people don't care or they think they know it all. The latter is probably more likely the case.

                        If it had been me in that situation...I would have showed the kid some stuff... this is still a free country right? I could care less what Mr. X wanted...he's not the one that asked for help. If he approached me...I would have offered my same helping hand to get his act together.

                        It's unfortunate that an organization like AIA has dwindled to what it is today. I remember the days when drums like Eagle Claw were there invited drums and there were hundreds of dancers that came. Now you get them hiring the "F troop" as you call it. I did not go this year and was only there a few hours last year...what a disappointment. I will not go back as long as they continue to bring in such poor quality entertainment, singers, and dancers. If we all start to do that...maybe the dances there will get better.

                        Too bad the leadership of the past no longer has a presence in the organzation.

                        I totally agree. I mean come on, they have a store! It's actually a fair decent store. The majority of their stuff comes from Crazy Crow, so it's more of a place for supplies but they do sell powwow DVDs and videos! Weird huh?

                        They only reasoning I have for the jacked-up regalia is that maybe they don't want to put in the effort to make their regalia or maybe they feel like they can't afford to.
                        Don't ever stop dancing

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Blackbear View Post
                          You know.. that's partly why one of my friends up here has the rep for being an ahole... well that and he can be one... but mostly because powwows up here were started by a bunch of hobbyists and nu age wannabes and were really goofy. My friend and hubby started throwing their own and making them more traditional and would be told by some of the wannabes that what they were doing was wrong... and mind you, my hubby is from a powwow throwing family who started one of the biggest powwows in Oklahoma... so it's not like these two men don't know what they are doing.....

                          Instead of being polite crazywolf... maybe you need to open your mouth a little wider and tell this man what he's doing is wrong... it's him that should be minding his business if he does'nt know what he's doing.. not the other way around.

                          I think that's our problem Derek, we're too nice and polite...
                          Don't ever stop dancing

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MayChe View Post
                            I totally agree. I mean come on, they have a store! It's actually a fair decent store. The majority of their stuff comes from Crazy Crow, so it's more of a place for supplies but they do sell powwow DVDs and videos! Weird huh?

                            They only reasoning I have for the jacked-up regalia is that maybe they don't want to put in the effort to make their regalia or maybe they feel like they can't afford to.
                            I think its more of the the first rather than the latter. I can understand not having money to do certain things, but sometimes people just look rediculous and there is no excuse for that. I was talking to my dad on the phone about this thread yesterday....he thought the whole thing was really funny. His opinion is that some people just think they know it all....they don't want help. I agree with that and the not wanting to put in the effort.

                            Hey you might see my brothers over there. They like to make appearances every now and then. If yu see them...tell them stay outta trouble!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MayChe View Post
                              I think that's our problem Derek, we're too nice and polite...
                              Honestly I do not go out of my way to be nice and polite. Most of the time it just occurs naturally.
                              I believe in something I want to believe, not what someone wants me to believe.

                              Comment

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