Porcupine... ?also victim of Pow wow's????

[absolutely gorgeous]

Now that is a cool discussion...

lets not forget that the main reason animal populations are declining is becuase of pollution and habbitat loss. What little us natives do take, isn't even considerable in talking about population declines.

I dont know about out west, but here in northern minnesota, porky's arn't protected becuase there so many here, there isnt a limit and can be taken anytime of the year. I hunt them once in a while, but we dont shoot them just for quills or hair, we give it to people who use them, many of the elders in my family still eat porcupine, or have to use them in certain feasts.


when you take the number of eagles that have been hit by cars, electicuted, poisoned, shot by farmers and non natives, then compare that number to the eagles that are taken for native use, the number would be something like 500-1, if even that high. To say powwows are a major threat to the eagle populations would simply be wrong. Sure sometimes people do try sell eagle feathers, but that number isnt anything compared to the other reasons eagles are declining.


I also happen be a wildlife biology major, and we have been studying population statistics. One last thing I want to point out, is many facts you hear about populations can be sort of cloudy. Like they will estimate what the natural population once was, then compare it with the current population estimates. Sure maybe at one time we had 50 million porcupines (just randomly making the number up for example) but then we also had so many billions of acres of land. To get a real sense, you have to compare the current populations, to the amount of natural habitat left. With every species, each one has its limites to how much area it needs to have. So a lot of population estimates are just based on how many used to be, and how many are left, rather than how many currently are here with respect to the amount of land they have left.


So of course populations are decling, becuase the natural habbitat is declining, not becuase of powwows.

Okayyy... I thank you for your most excellent response/comment. Instead of writing about what I do or don't do with a huge judgemental finger pointing at me - someone actually responded to the core of the issue. I think it's great that in other areas of the continent, porcupines are quite numerous... but here on the west slope of the Rockies, we may not be so lucky. Unless there is a good... I mean good... study across the board, including reservations... no one really knows what kind of decline there is, what it is caused from, if there are any remedies... and on and on.

Thank You.

Pow wow's don't kill anything. Bottom line. They don't kill eagles. They don't kill porcupines. They don't kill dentalium or abalone...

and in the end, we know what kills whom.

[anishtradish]

lets not forget that the main reason animal populations are declining is becuase of pollution and habbitat loss. What little us natives do take, isn't even considerable in talking about population declines.

I dont know about out west, but here in northern minnesota, porky's arn't protected becuase there so many here, there isnt a limit and can be taken anytime of the year. I hunt them once in a while, but we dont shoot them just for quills or hair, we give it to people who use them, many of the elders in my family still eat porcupine, or have to use them in certain feasts.


when you take the number of eagles that have been hit by cars, electicuted, poisoned, shot by farmers and non natives, then compare that number to the eagles that are taken for native use, the number would be something like 500-1, if even that high. To say powwows are a major threat to the eagle populations would simply be wrong. Sure sometimes people do try sell eagle feathers, but that number isnt anything compared to the other reasons eagles are declining.


I also happen be a wildlife biology major, and we have been studying population statistics. One last thing I want to point out, is many facts you hear about populations can be sort of cloudy. Like they will estimate what the natural population once was, then compare it with the current population estimates. Sure maybe at one time we had 50 million porcupines (just randomly making the number up for example) but then we also had so many billions of acres of land. To get a real sense, you have to compare the current populations, to the amount of natural habitat left. With every species, each one has its limites to how much area it needs to have. So a lot of population estimates are just based on how many used to be, and how many are left, rather than how many currently are here with respect to the amount of land they have left.


So of course populations are decling, becuase the natural habbitat is declining, not becuase of powwows.

[Roachman]

After you stated "seeing 100;s of Feathers and Roaches at a powwow" and then talked about their decling no.s - It seems like us natives had a Big part of their demise.I'm sure not only me but other viewers share this point - Perhaps you should not have mentioned '' Powwows'' in your ''DISCUSSION''. as for giving up your native traditions - that is truly your choice - wouldn't that be giving up your identity as a Indian? again, we would not be who we are as a people - without our winged , and four-legged brothers. Their are certain prayers and ceremonies when we use our earthly brothers. - I agree , civilization does have a impact on earthly brothers - I;m afraid - the way mother earth is being torn apart - all creatures may be gone- in a couple 100 years or so. I am sorry we do not agree on your ''Discussion'' - I'll leave with this famous quote '' Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only when the last fish has been caught, only then will we realize Money cannot be eaten.'' SITTING BULL.

[absolutely gorgeous]

Hello Again, perhaps my other response went through... I don't know. But, from your last comment - I obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. I am just putting the thought out there... for discussion... however, as Wocuswoman says (I heartily agree with her) the population of human kind is growing exuberantly in some places. Depletion of natural habitat for the creatures we love - while a majority of human kind have to have their starbucks, shopping malls and interstate highways.

AND ... I am not BLAMING natives for their demise... as I remarked in the thread about eagles...
"People, industry, profit - kill eagles. The by - products of people and the present day (and accumulated past industrial societies) kill eagles.

People with no respect kill eagles, hawk, badgers, ermine, and all kinds of living four footed, two footed creatures - for no better reason than the human is uncaring about themselves, the natural world, and the creature they kill. When I see senseless death, I think of what my elders spoke to me... 'what goes around comes around'... we are going to get back all the disrespect we feed out to the world.

A couple of years ago, I felt supremely blessed to have seen a golden eagle that had been killed by a fast semi... and I picked up it poor broken body. It was beautiful and I wept for its death. Only a few days before I had seen this same eagle flying over the Yellowstone River.

Greed and disrespect have put into place the the whole idea behinid the repository. And as the pitiful human beings we are in this present day world, we cannot govern ourself and the natural world to the natural world's benefit.

The numbers of porcupine deaths is subjective, as well as the sense of waste. Without human kind, these animals would live and die, out on the mountains, along the rivers, and under the trees... as they have for thousands of years. But we native people have given a cultural and spiritual value to these creatures... that is why we still use them... even for a 'pow wow' with monetary prizes. A well made roach is beautiful... otherwise why do so many men wear these? Native people also didn't hunt animals to extinction, although there is an anthropologist out there who suggests that natives of North American hunted the mammoth to extinction.

As a Native of my own reservation, I chose to step back away from a practice that would encourage more senseless wasteful deaths of these very slow and dim sighted creatures. My choice makes sense only to me. As a native of my reservation lands, I also could see a diminishing population of an animal I love and respect. Do I want it to become extinct on my reservation?... or within my part of the state? No.

There is too much senseless death of these poor creatures... I do agree with that.

[Roachman]

I make Roaches - roughly 40 or 50 a year - a dancer does not order a new Roach every year - a good one will last several years. I get my hair from a Furbuyer - he only has a couple trappers get him hair - the other 2 or 3 hundred - will shoot a Porcupine and leave it to Rot! - Can you imagine how many thousands - are left to Rot across the West every year? They are nothing to a whiteman. Blaming natives was inconsiderate.- I like to think the Porcupines Spirit is at ease - knowing a part of him will live on in the circle. Where would we be as a people - if the creator - did not give us such Wild and Beautiful animals - to make us what we are today! AHO!

[Roachman]

I agree with Wocuswoman - I make roaches and I buy hair off the Res - from a Furbuyer - Just a few Trappers & Hunters bring in hair and quills - the other 2 or 3 hundred - shoot them in traps and snares - then toss them aside to Rot! Can you imagine how many are wasted across the West every year?- I think that was inconsiderate - Blaming natives of their decline. I make roughly 40 to 50 roaches a year. Every dancer does not order a new Roach every year - a good Roach will last several years. I like to think the Porcupines Spirit is at ease - knowing a part of him still lives in the circle - not laying in some ditch rotting.- We would not be who we are today - if the creator - did not give us such wild and Beautiful things to be a part of us.I,m sorry you feel this way. AHO!

[Roachman]

I buy my hair from a furbuyer - off the Res. - He tells me that Hundreds of trappers &Hunters actually throw them away - no good to a white man - what I get comes from a few trappers - It actually makes me feel good to use the hair - they are not wasted in vain, or left to rot - they live on in the dance circle. I,ve seen them shot, lying in a field to rot- by White hunters! - When I receive hair, I offer tobacco to the creator for the life taken.-I like to think the Porcupines Spirit is at ease - knowing he is still alive in the circle. AHO!

[WocusWoman]

They eat porcupine still in Bush Alaska, so it is not wasted. I think the biggest contributor to the low populations are the overgrowth of cities and road systems, not powwows or Native people's artwork.

[absolutely gorgeous]

Read an old and current thread titled: Pow wows are biggest killer of eagles. Read many comments and made a couple... and here is a start to another related/relevant thread.

Please read this regarding a study:
Missoulian: Porcupine quest: Population appears to be declining in West, researchers say<img src="/newsart/minivideo.jpg" border="0" align="absmiddle">

Any one who is a passionate observer or participant of a pow wow, not only sees hundreds of eagle feathers, but hundreds of porcupine roaches and hair pieces.

I am a porcupine quillworker, and I used to teach at the local tribal college. For the most part my tribal game wardens would bring me road kill, and I was thankful and yet saddened at each of these deaths. And listened impatiently at people who consider porcupines pesty varmints, eating tree bark, vehicle wires, and hurting those poor dogs' noses.

I have noticed a declining population, and on road trips to various reservations would see porcupine road kill. And usually because of the quills and guard hair, those carcasses didn't stay put for very long. On my res you don't even have time to turn around - it will be gone before you get there.

I stopped teaching this old art, knowing that not teaching would not save these slow creatures - but I believed even if I bought quills or guard hair on a salted hide or in a package, I was still contributing to the demise of porcupines in their range. And I DEFINITELY do NOT CONDONE killing porcupines JUST for their parts.

I once saw a business (leathers and such) that had clean porucpine quills stored in 55 gallon garbage cans!!! Once I got past my avarice for so many clean even quills, I was finally horrified to consider how many porcupines were stripped of their quills and most likely their guard hair.

Whether it is eagle feathers, porcupine quills/guardhair, abalone shells, otter fur, ... actually any material coming from our winged, four legged, other wise a non-human fellow beings... we ought to consider our part in their extinction or demise for profit.