NC Tuscaroras want to tell their side of the story (video)!

[lumbeedancer]

Lumbee Recognition Bill Elicits Concerns From Other Indian Groups - Search - NBC 17

Lumbee Recognition Bill Elicits Concerns From Other Indian Groups

Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008 - 10:34 PM Updated: 08:43 AM

By Sergio Quintana
General Assignment Reporter
WNCN-TV

MAXTON, N.C. -- Last week members of the U.S. Senate's Indian Affairs Committee passed a bill on to the full Senate that could make the Lumbees of North Carolina one step closer to being recognized as a fully sanctioned Indian tribe by the federal government.

Discuss this story

But the bill’s progress has triggered a long standing dispute raised by a smaller group called the Tuscarora of North Carolina.

According to a spokesman for the Lumbee Tribe, if the bill is passed it could mean millions of dollars in benefits for more than 60,000 members of the tribe and their families.

“Our people will have a chance for the same educational opportunities that are available to other members of other federally recognized tribes in the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and it also means healthcare access,” Lumbee spokesman Alex Baker said.

In 1956 the U.S. government recognized the Lumbees as a tribe in a law that was passed called the Lumbee Act.

But under that law, the Lumbees were denied many benefits offered to other tribes.

At Lumbee Tribal offices in Pembroke, officials are trying to get the word out.

“We're asking members that live outside of the territory, outside of North Carolina, to contact their Senators and ask them to support Lumbee recognition,” Alex Baker said.

But members of the Tuscarora Nation of North Carolina are not happy about the bill’s progress.

“The claims the Lumbees are making today, are claims that are valid Tuscarora claims as far as the ancestry of the people, the origins of the people,” Tuscarora member Timothy Jacobs said.

Jacobs says he, and thousands of other North Carolina Tuscaroras, are angry that the Lumbee are using their grandfather’s and grandmother's blood lines as part of the Lumbee claim to the U.S. Government.

They want to voice their concerns to U.S. Lawmakers.

“We [should} be allowed to testify in an open hearing committee that will bring to truth, and it will bring to light the facts of the Tuscarora history, versus the Lumbee history," said Jacobs.

The Lumbee say the North Carolina Tuscarora is a small group of people that are raising familiar concerns.

“These are problems that every Indian tribe faces within the country, there are always splinter groups within a tribe,” Alex Baker said.

The disputes raised by the North Carolina Tuscarora go back decades.

They are very personal, in part because the Lumbee Act of 1956 lumped the two groups together.

That law also bars the North Carolina Tuscarora from seeking their own federal claims.

The Lumbee say this bill could actually help both groups because it could clear the North Carolina Tuscarora to seek their own tribal recognition.

[Blackbear]

so which group is jacobs with anyhow? I told someone I thought he was with Magnotta's group but then i hear he's a Kautenoh... so he's a group hopper like most of the so called tuscaroras there who will go with who they are'nt arguing with or who looks most likely to get some form of recognition.

So this article is almost an exact repeat of one that was written 2 years ago when the Lumbee got close before. Do you get the feeling no one wants to hear it? That no one really cares about the name? That the constant combating of the name for a large group of people and their origins makes it just look like infighting and pettiness to cause problems?

Im serioius.. this article and what it' quotes is the same song and dance that's been presented for at least a half a decade in news articles. You have all the internet to present your "side" of things in the most detailed of manners and what have you guys done with it besides leave up a myspace page that is'nt current nor contains all the facts so it looks like you are still having the same struggles over Neheroka when that was resolved even before you knew about it... and a website with a chronology that shows nothing to support it nor does it mark the parts that are personal opinion. theory or speculation and is presented as cold hard truth/ fact. I mean it even still lists TOTE as meaning tuscaroras of the east when it was proven that it's a redman's lodge term for totem of the eagle expressing a rank within the fraternization.

You're a smart guy.. I know that for a fact... you want people to listen with interest and give a damn, then put you own heart and soul into your research and write something compelling that cannot be dissected. So many of these guys from there like to call me stupid but if I'm that stupid and can dissect their regurgitated crap then what's that say about them? I guess it's just easier to pass me off as some fat angry woman who's way beneath the oh so grand men of that county, than to admit that all they are doing is spinning wheels in the mud and repeating what they've heard from everyone else. .

[lumbeedancer]

Personally I agree that there are certain minor things (like the TOTE reference) that I may or may not agree with personally, but its not fair to say that nothing presented on that timeline is relevent because the majority of it very much is (ie. the 1840 article stating that the people came from the regions round about the Roanoke and Neuse rivers, the c. 1867 letter that those two ministers wrote to the Freedmens Bureau stating that the Lowries were said to be descendants from the Tuscarora Indians, the 1872 Townsend article refering to Henry Berry as a Tuscarora, Townsends 1872 "Swamp Outlaws" which stated that the whole gang (which included Oxendines, Lowries, a Strong, and a Dial) had Tuscarora blood in them, Mary Norments 1875 "The Lowrie History" which stated the Lowries, Locklears, and Cumbos were Tuscarora (and infered that the rest of the community was as well), the John Gormen diary which stated that Tuscaroras (and mentioned no other Indians being here) migrated to "Robeson" from the Roanoke River in Halifax county due to encrouchment from the planters, the first sentence of Hamilton McMillans Croatan Bill stating that the people claimed to be from that friendly tribe that lived along the banks of the Roanoke River in eastern NC (where the friendly Tuscaroras recieved their reservation), the 1885 Fayetteville Observer Article quoting Hamilton McMillan saying that even though he labeled the people Croatan the people themselves (as a whole) said that they were actually Tuscarora and that Croatan was just a village, quotes from the LRDA Settlement Pattern Study documenting certain families as coming from Tuscarora territory, etc......

I can agree with you about putting together a much more concise presentation of the facts and it is something that I am personally planning to help do (these things take time and you must also understand that that timeline was put together by one individual who didn't have anyone else to help him at the time and who was also involved in many other things as well. Of course it wasn't going to be perfect, it is a work in progress). I also want folks to understand that Tim's statements here (in this particular article, re-read it closely, or better yet watch the video, if you think I'm lying) were not really so much about the 22 thing (which is the same old song and dance), so much as the geneology and over-all history of the people in general.

As I'm sure your aware; myself along with several other individuals did a presentation about Tuscarora history in North Carolina at the Southeastern Indian Studies Conference at UNCP last month. Well during the question and answer session I ended up getting into a small debate (a debate that Tim was there to hear and take part in as well) with Arlinda Locklear (the Lumbee tribe's attourney) about the way the Lumbee tribe is presenting the geneology of the people here in DC claiming that they were Cheraw.

At her last hearing in DC Mrs Locklear stated that the Locklear, Lowrie, Chavis, and Oxendine families were all originally Cheraws. The fact of the matter is that the genealogical record documents the Locklear, Lowrie, and Chavis families as all coming from somewhere around the Halifax County area in Northeastern North Carolina (coincidentally the same place that General Gorman said the Tuscaroras migrated from) and documents the Oxendine family as coming from VA.

The bottom line being that none of them could have possibly been descended from the South Carolina Cheraws: to the contrary they all appear to be actually of Tuscarora blood (or mostly Tuscarora blood). So when Tim said in this article that the Lumbee officials were using legitimate Tuscarora claims to support their case (i.e. their Cheraw claim) he was absolutely correct. He was also justified in stating that the Tuscaroras should be allowed to voice their concerns in an open hearing and bring truth to the Tuscarora history vs the Lumbee history (i.e. their Cheraw claim).

At the conference last month Mrs. Locklear heavily stressed how the Lumbee bill provides an avenue for the Tuscarora to be able to petition seperately if the bill passes. But the fact of the matter is that the same family names that were used in the Lumbees presentation would be used in a Tuscarora presentation (or petition depending on how things work out) if we should ever have one of our own one day. This is a major conflict of intirests because if these families are allready federally recognized as being Cheraws by the time the Tuscarora get there, well I'm sure by now everybody can see the problem here!

Bottom line Jolie; what is going on now (I can't speak about the past) with the majority of the Tuscarora here (not including Maggnotta who is petty and beyond ignorant) is not the same old song and dance. There are many who are educated (some on the PHD level) who are finally starting to get involved now and they aren't playing around!

Disagree with individual statements all you want, just don't knock the entire NC Tuscarora Nation when you do it!


BH

FYI: From what Tim has told me he has never chosen a side as far as the Tuscarora factions go here, he works with all of them when he can; the ultimate objective (of him, myself, and many others from various groups working together at this time) is to bring all of them together politically in the end (who knows maybe even some of the ill-informed Lums out there as well), we are all one and the same!

[Blackbear]

Bobby.. I'll have to address this later.. in the morning if I get a chance before heading to my baby appointments... but when there is a NC Tuscarora NATION to knock, then there can be a request not to.

Not a one of you groups are even unified enough to make a difference or represent everyone calling themselves tuscarora there. This is why all the claims of me just feeling threatened by them is so very wrong. There is no threat that I can see. More or less I am addressing those with the biggest media mouths right now because they are the only ones you hear about.

[Blackbear]

Personally I agree that there are certain minor things (like the TOTE reference) that I may or may not agree with personally, but its not fair to say that nothing presented on that timeline is relevent because the majority of it very much is

I never said it was entirely off... but there is enough represented wrong there to warrent it useless as a tool when you don't know for sure what is and what is'nt real.

(ie. the 1840 article stating that the people came from the regions round about the Roanoke and Neuse rivers, the c. 1867 letter that those two ministers wrote to the Freedmens Bureau stating that the Lowries were said to be descendants from the Tuscarora Indians,

This is a new one on me.... I've not seen these articles so I cannot comment.

the 1872 Townsend article refering to Henry Berry as a Tuscarora, Townsends 1872 "Swamp Outlaws" which stated that the whole gang (which included Oxendines, Lowries, a Strong, and a Dial) had Tuscarora blood in them, Mary Norments 1875 "The Lowrie History" which stated the Lowries, Locklears, and Cumbos were Tuscarora (and infered that the rest of the community was as well), the John Gormen diary which stated that Tuscaroras (and mentioned no other Indians being here) migrated to "Robeson" from the Roanoke River in Halifax county due to encrouchment from the planters, the first sentence of Hamilton McMillans Croatan Bill stating that the people claimed to be from that friendly tribe that lived along the banks of the Roanoke River in eastern NC (where the friendly Tuscaroras recieved their reservation), the 1885 Fayetteville Observer Article quoting Hamilton McMillan saying that even though he labeled the people Croatan the people themselves (as a whole) said that they were actually Tuscarora and that Croatan was just a village, quotes from the LRDA Settlement Pattern Study documenting certain families as coming from Tuscarora territory, etc......

But McMillan also said they were croatan and in another article he said cherokee. I think McMillan was just, "not right in the head" and definitely not a reliable source but a worthy footnote. Normant I think made it all up because she was a writer and went with the "bloodthirstiest" tribe she knew of from that region. And those surnames from Tuscarora Territory were from VA before that so how do we know that it's tuscarora and not algonquin or siouan blood for sure? They never really lived on the reservation but in the areas AROUND it instead. Although the Brooks name does come from the Mattamuskeet rez I think.....which would make them more likely to be tuscarora than the others.

I can agree with you about putting together a much more concise presentation of the facts and it is something that I am personally planning to help do (these things take time and you must also understand that that timeline was put together by one individual who didn't have anyone else to help him at the time and who was also involved in many other things as well. Of course it wasn't going to be perfect, it is a work in progress). I also want folks to understand that Tim's statements here (in this particular article, re-read it closely, or better yet watch the video, if you think I'm lying) were not really so much about the 22 thing (which is the same old song and dance), so much as the geneology and over-all history of the people in general.

Then what were they about because I watched the video and it still sounded like the same old song and dance to me. And I understand the one person doing the timeline but it's been up for at LEAST a year and none of the mistakes pointed out have ever been corrected yet the site is promoted at every turn. Maybe a note should be put on the page that it's under constant construction and that inaccuracies are being corrected when convenient. At least that's somewhat honest.

As I'm sure your aware; myself along with several other individuals did a presentation about Tuscarora history in North Carolina at the Southeastern Indian Studies Conference at UNCP last month. Well during the question and answer session I ended up getting into a small debate (a debate that Tim was there to hear and take part in as well) with Arlinda Locklear (the Lumbee tribe's attourney) about the way the Lumbee tribe is presenting the geneology of the people here in DC claiming that they were Cheraw.

At her last hearing in DC Mrs Locklear stated that the Locklear, Lowrie, Chavis, and Oxendine families were all originally Cheraws. The fact of the matter is that the genealogical record documents the Locklear, Lowrie, and Chavis families as all coming from somewhere around the Halifax County area in Northeastern North Carolina (coincidentally the same place that General Gorman said the Tuscaroras migrated from) and documents the Oxendine family as coming from just over the VA line (not to far away, they could have been Nottaway or something though).

And they could very well have been algonquins .. the Oxendine were'nt the only ones that came down from VA.. so did those other names.

The bottom line being that none of them could have possibly been descended from the South Carolina Cheraws: to the contrary they all appear to be actually of Tuscarora blood (or mostly Tuscarora blood). So when Tim said in this article that the Lumbee officials were using legitimate Tuscarora claims to support their case (i.e. their Cheraw claim) he was absolutely correct. He was also justified in stating that the Tuscaroras should be allowed to voice their concerns in an open hearing and bring truth to the Tuscarora history vs the Lumbee history (i.e. their Cheraw claim).

Unless the cheraw blood came AFTER those names came to Robeson county which still has never been proved or disproved, but should'nt just be dismissed.

At the conference last month Mrs. Locklear heavily stressed how the Lumbee bill provides an avenue for the Tuscarora to be able to petition seperately if the bill passes. But the fact of the matter is that the same family names that were used in the Lumbees presentation would be used in a Tuscarora presentation (or petition depending on how things work out) if we should ever have one of our own one day. This is a major conflict of intirests because if these families are allready federally recognized as being Cheraws by the time the Tuscarora get there, well I'm sure by now everybody can see the problem here!

why worry? if they can't prove the cheraw blood, it won't happen will it now? The fact is, no one can claim blood from any particular tribe because all the clear lines were severed and that's why everything there is theory. And no,I'm not saying that there's no indian blood, a distinction of who is what is not clear and may never be. And you could still be Lumbee and claim Tuscarora bloodlines and let the others claim what they want to and still be possibly 50% wrong or right either way, but united as a people with common ancestry at least in the surnames and kinship. Just because the 6 separate nations make up the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee, does not mean that we can't identify as individual nations does it?

Bottom line Jolie; what is going on now (I can't speak about the past) with the majority of the Tuscarora here (not including Maggnotta who is petty and beyond ignorant) is not the same old song and dance. There are many who are educated (some on the PHD level) who are finally starting to get involved now and they aren't playing around!

Then they need to get digging.. cause it's still sounding like the same old song and dance. Conspiracy theories and government denials.

BH

FYI: From what Tim has told me he has never chosen a side as far as the Tuscarora factions go here, he works with all of them when he can; the ultimate objective (of him, myself, and many others from various groups working together at this time) is to bring all of them together politically in the end (who knows maybe even some of the ill-informed Lums out there as well), we are all one and the same!

convenient of him... sorry, never trusted the guy myself. I don't think he's totally honest and I have said that to him in a post before.

Well don't expect to hear much from me after this... I'm having a baby this week. yes... this week. Just can't give a definite date yet because i've been given three, but as early as tomorrow is a possibility.

[lumbeedancer]

Well, congratulations on the baby!


In regards to everything else:

McMillan named the people Croatan and openly admitted that they had never been called this before he invented this designation. Although he seems crazy in everything he said about the Croatan thing (which makes sense because, from the start it was known and even admitted by him to be made up), that doesn't mean you can just shrug off what he said about the people claiming to be Tuscarora. If he was trying to prove his Croatan theory it would make no-sense for him to state that the people themselves claimed to be Tuscarora if it wasn't true and there is no reason for him to have stated in the Croatan Bill that the people claimed to be from that friendly tribe that lived along the banks of the Roanoke river in eastern NC if it wasn't true (coincidentally the geneology seems to verify this statement a lot more than folks might realize).

In a two day period this man was documented saying that we not only claimed to be Tuscarora but we claimed to be from the "EXACT SAME PLACE THAT THE TUSCARORA LIVED" as well. That's to coincidental for my taste....not to mention all the "OLDER" references to Tuscarora as well.

In regards to Norment just making it up there are several things that indicate otherwise;

1.) the fact that she said James Lowrie (the first Lowrie to Robeson and this is documented by his 1767 land grant) "himself" made the Tuscarora claim and gave "NINE WITNESSES" to attest to this claim.......and specifically stated that this "WAS NOT CURRENT RUMOR"......as in she went out of her way to make it clear that this was a "FACT!" ,

2.) The letter I mentioned (that has been cited on the timeline the whole time) by the two ministers to the freedmens Bureau about the murder of Henry Berry's brother and father stating that "They are said to be descendants from the TUSCARORA INDIANS" was written about the year 1867 (about 8 years before Norment wrote her book)

3.) The "Swamp Outlaws" by George Alphred Townsend (along with his article in the Harpers Ferry Magazine) which addressed the entire gang as having Tuscarora blood was written in 1872 (about 3 years before Norments 1875 the Lowrie History), and

4.) General Gorman's memiors were written about the exact same time as Norments book (perhaps a little bit earlier) and mentioned that TUSCARORAS (it specifically said Tuscaroras and no other tribe) had migrated to Robeson due to encrouchment from the planters.

So how could she have been coming out of left field when "EVERYBODY ELSE" was saying the exact same thing?


In regards to your claim that "everyone else" came from Virginia first; that is absolutely "NOT TRUE!"

1.) All the Locklears in Robeson descend from Robert Locklear who in 1738 lived at Quankey Pocisin on the Roanoke River in the part of Bertie County that is now known as Halifax county NC. The trail ends here for this family point blank! Not to mention that Norment specifically described one of his descendants in Robeson (Bettie Locklear) as being Tuscarora.

2.) The Chavis family in Robeson all descend from a Bartholemew Chavis who about the year 1720 recieved 300 acres on the Roanoke River in the Part of Chowan county that would later become Bertie County and is currently known as Northampton County NC (accross the River from current day Halifax). It has been "SPECULATED" that he was the same Bartholemew who was mentioned in VA, but not proven. Either way his son William Chavis (father of the first Chavis' to Robeson) recieved a deed of gift from his father in 1727 for land in Bertie County on the South Side of the Roanoke River near the Quankey Pocosin (the same one that Robert Locklear lived near) in what became Edgecomb County in 1741 and Halifax County in 1758. So even "IF (and this is an "IF") Bartholemew came from VA his son was born on the Roanoke River in NC (I don't know who his son's mother was). Willaim married a woman named Frances who was the daughter of Gibby Gibson and these two were the parents of the Chavis' who came to Robeson. Well anyway, there was a Walter Gibson listed as being a Tuscarora chieftain in 1777. So in all likelihood (considering that both the Chavis's and Locklears were both later living in a community said to have originated from the Roanoke river and to have been a Tuscarora community or "Half-Breed Tuscarora" community) I would say there is a very strong likelihood that Frances was from the same set of Gibsons as Walter.

and,

3.) Lowry (Lowery/Lowrie)- The entire Lowry family in Robeson are descended from a James Lowry who recieved his first Bladen (Robeson) County land grant on October 26, 1767 Mary Norment's 1875 "The Lowrie History" states that "James Lowrie first came to Robeson (then Bladen County) from Bute County (now Franklin and Warren Counties)..........It was in Franklin county that James Lowrie married. His wife's maiden name was Sarah Kearsey (nicknamed Sally Kearsy) a half-breed Tuscarora Indian woman, and from this couple all the Lowries in Robeson trace back their origin. The above statement in regard to the origin of the Lowrie family is not current rumor, but a true statement as given by James Lowrie himself and corraborated by...." she goes on to list nine different witnesses. Well anyway she does state that his father was a white judge from VA, but that's irrellevant because the Kersey Lady from Warren/Bute (right next to Halifax County NC where the Chavis's and Locklears came from) was the source of Indian blood in this family.

Although I'll acknowledge a possible "part" Nansemond or Saponi descent in the Chavis family and some other non-Tuscarora descent in the founder of the Oxendine family they definately were not Cheraw (who lived in SC) The way I read it is that they (all these families together)were mainly Tuscarora (collectively), possibly part Saponi or Nansemond, and in part non-Indian and definately not-Cheraw. The fact that the Indian community in Robeson was Tuscarora at its core is illustrated farther by the fact that the Oxendine descendants in Robeson were at least "in Part" considered to be Tuscarora as well (after they had been there long enough to intermarry with the others) as evidenced by the 1872 statement in the "Swamp Outlaws" describing Pop Oxendine (one of the Lowrie gang members) with the following statement: "Like the rest, he had the Tuscarora Indian blood in him.....

[Blackbear]

Well I'm about ready to come back to this conversation. Little man has been keeping me rather busy lately and I was just recently able to climb stairs again... c sections are'nt any fun I tell ya. Hopefully I can come back in the morning and reply... but do me a favor would ya? I hear rumor that Sekon is being said to be my "blind follower". This is absolutley not true and a discredit to her own intelligence. The woman can think for herself and can research for herself as well. So let them guys know that the two of us do not share a brain, just an opinion most of the time and a love of history.

[ECSN]

Well, congratulations on the baby!


In regards to everything else:

McMillan named the people Croatan and openly admitted that they had never been called this before he invented this designation. Although he seems crazy in everything he said about the Croatan thing (which makes sense because, from the start it was known and even admitted by him to be made up), that doesn't mean you can just shrug off what he said about the people claiming to be Tuscarora. If he was trying to prove his Croatan theory it would make no-sense for him to state that the people themselves claimed to be Tuscarora if it wasn't true and there is no reason for him to have stated in the Croatan Bill that the people claimed to be from that friendly tribe that lived along the banks of the Roanoke river in eastern NC if it wasn't true (coincidentally the geneology seems to verify this statement a lot more than folks might realize).

In a two day period this man was documented saying that we not only claimed to be Tuscarora but we claimed to be from the "EXACT SAME PLACE THAT THE TUSCARORA LIVED" as well. That's to coincidental for my taste....not to mention all the "OLDER" references to Tuscarora as well.

In regards to Norment just making it up there are several things that indicate otherwise;

1.) the fact that she said James Lowrie (the first Lowrie to Robeson and this is documented by his 1767 land grant) "himself" made the Tuscarora claim and gave "NINE WITNESSES" to attest to this claim.......and specifically stated that this "WAS NOT CURRENT RUMOR"......as in she went out of her way to make it clear that this was a "FACT!" ,

2.) The letter I mentioned (that has been cited on the timeline the whole time) by the two ministers to the freedmens Bureau about the murder of Henry Berry's brother and father stating that "They are said to be descendants from the TUSCARORA INDIANS" was written about the year 1867 (about 8 years before Norment wrote her book)

3.) The "Swamp Outlaws" by George Alphred Townsend (along with his article in the Harpers Ferry Magazine) which addressed the entire gang as having Tuscarora blood was written in 1872 (about 3 years before Norments 1875 the Lowrie History), and

4.) General Gorman's memiors were written about the exact same time as Norments book (perhaps a little bit earlier) and mentioned that TUSCARORAS (it specifically said Tuscaroras and no other tribe) had migrated to Robeson due to encrouchment from the planters.

So how could she have been coming out of left field when "EVERYBODY ELSE" was saying the exact same thing?


In regards to your claim that "everyone else" came from Virginia first; that is absolutely "NOT TRUE!"

1.) All the Locklears in Robeson descend from Robert Locklear who in 1738 lived at Quankey Pocisin on the Roanoke River in the part of Bertie County that is now known as Halifax county NC. The trail ends here for this family point blank! Not to mention that Norment specifically described one of his descendants in Robeson (Bettie Locklear) as being Tuscarora.

2.) The Chavis family in Robeson all descend from a Bartholemew Chavis who about the year 1720 recieved 300 acres on the Roanoke River in the Part of Chowan county that would later become Bertie County and is currently known as Northampton County NC (accross the River from current day Halifax). It has been "SPECULATED" that he was the same Bartholemew who was mentioned in VA, but not proven. Either way his son William Chavis (father of the first Chavis' to Robeson) recieved a deed of gift from his father in 1727 for land in Bertie County on the South Side of the Roanoke River near the Quankey Pocosin (the same one that Robert Locklear lived near) in what became Edgecomb County in 1741 and Halifax County in 1758. So even "IF (and this is an "IF") Bartholemew came from VA his son was born on the Roanoke River in NC (I don't know who his son's mother was). Willaim married a woman named Frances who was the daughter of Gibby Gibson and these two were the parents of the Chavis' who came to Robeson. Well anyway, there was a Walter Gibson listed as being a Tuscarora chieftain in 1777. So in all likelihood (considering that both the Chavis's and Locklears were both later living in a community said to have originated from the Roanoke river and to have been a Tuscarora community or "Half-Breed Tuscarora" community) I would say there is a very strong likelihood that Frances was from the same set of Gibsons as Walter.

and,

3.) Lowry (Lowery/Lowrie)- The entire Lowry family in Robeson are descended from a James Lowry who recieved his first Bladen (Robeson) County land grant on October 26, 1767 Mary Norment's 1875 "The Lowrie History" states that "James Lowrie first came to Robeson (then Bladen County) from Bute County (now Franklin and Warren Counties)..........It was in Franklin county that James Lowrie married. His wife's maiden name was Sarah Kearsey (nicknamed Sally Kearsy) a half-breed Tuscarora Indian woman, and from this couple all the Lowries in Robeson trace back their origin. The above statement in regard to the origin of the Lowrie family is not current rumor, but a true statement as given by James Lowrie himself and corraborated by...." she goes on to list nine different witnesses. Well anyway she does state that his father was a white judge from VA, but that's irrellevant because the Kersey Lady from Warren/Bute (right next to Halifax County NC where the Chavis's and Locklears came from) was the source of Indian blood in this family.

Although I'll acknowledge a possible "part" Nansemond or Saponi descent in the Chavis family and some other non-Tuscarora descent in the founder of the Oxendine family they definately were not Cheraw (who lived in SC) The way I read it is that they (all these families together)were mainly Tuscarora (collectively), possibly part Saponi or Nansemond, and in part non-Indian and definately not-Cheraw. The fact that the Indian community in Robeson was Tuscarora at its core is illustrated farther by the fact that the Oxendine descendants in Robeson were at least "in Part" considered to be Tuscarora as well (after they had been there long enough to intermarry with the others) as evidenced by the 1872 statement in the "Swamp Outlaws" describing Pop Oxendine (one of the Lowrie gang members) with the following statement: "Like the rest, he had the Tuscarora Indian blood in him.....

The Chavis name is associated with the Mehhrrin tribe. The Mehhrrin's was just to the East of Halifax....I would have to look thru my records to see their exact location.

Have you read that Robert K booklet yet? It has lots and lots of information...it even includes a Surname list and brief history on some of the surnames.

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1023&context=robert_thomas

[ECSN]

Ok I'm looking at the name list in the Robert K thomas' booklet.

It has chavis listed with the Cheraw of NC and SC.
The Saponi did bring back some cheraw during one of their trips to the Catawba's areas.....Cheraw if I'm not mistaken did band with the catawba.

Chavis is also listed with the Mehrrins ( which I believe was the first area the Chavis was found).

[Joe's Dad]

Well, congratulations on the baby!


In regards to everything else:

McMillan named the people Croatan and openly admitted that they had never been called this before he invented this designation. Although he seems crazy in everything he said about the Croatan thing (which makes sense because, from the start it was known and even admitted by him to be made up), that doesn't mean you can just shrug off what he said about the people claiming to be Tuscarora. If he was trying to prove his Croatan theory it would make no-sense for him to state that the people themselves claimed to be Tuscarora if it wasn't true and there is no reason for him to have stated in the Croatan Bill that the people claimed to be from that friendly tribe that lived along the banks of the Roanoke river in eastern NC if it wasn't true (coincidentally the geneology seems to verify this statement a lot more than folks might realize).

In a two day period this man was documented saying that we not only claimed to be Tuscarora but we claimed to be from the "EXACT SAME PLACE THAT THE TUSCARORA LIVED" as well. That's to coincidental for my taste....not to mention all the "OLDER" references to Tuscarora as well.

In regards to Norment just making it up there are several things that indicate otherwise;

1.) the fact that she said James Lowrie (the first Lowrie to Robeson and this is documented by his 1767 land grant) "himself" made the Tuscarora claim and gave "NINE WITNESSES" to attest to this claim.......and specifically stated that this "WAS NOT CURRENT RUMOR"......as in she went out of her way to make it clear that this was a "FACT!" ,

2.) The letter I mentioned (that has been cited on the timeline the whole time) by the two ministers to the freedmens Bureau about the murder of Henry Berry's brother and father stating that "They are said to be descendants from the TUSCARORA INDIANS" was written about the year 1867 (about 8 years before Norment wrote her book)

3.) The "Swamp Outlaws" by George Alphred Townsend (along with his article in the Harpers Ferry Magazine) which addressed the entire gang as having Tuscarora blood was written in 1872 (about 3 years before Norments 1875 the Lowrie History), and

4.) General Gorman's memiors were written about the exact same time as Norments book (perhaps a little bit earlier) and mentioned that TUSCARORAS (it specifically said Tuscaroras and no other tribe) had migrated to Robeson due to encrouchment from the planters.

So how could she have been coming out of left field when "EVERYBODY ELSE" was saying the exact same thing?


In regards to your claim that "everyone else" came from Virginia first; that is absolutely "NOT TRUE!"

1.) All the Locklears in Robeson descend from Robert Locklear who in 1738 lived at Quankey Pocisin on the Roanoke River in the part of Bertie County that is now known as Halifax county NC. The trail ends here for this family point blank! Not to mention that Norment specifically described one of his descendants in Robeson (Bettie Locklear) as being Tuscarora.

2.) The Chavis family in Robeson all descend from a Bartholemew Chavis who about the year 1720 recieved 300 acres on the Roanoke River in the Part of Chowan county that would later become Bertie County and is currently known as Northampton County NC (accross the River from current day Halifax). It has been "SPECULATED" that he was the same Bartholemew who was mentioned in VA, but not proven. Either way his son William Chavis (father of the first Chavis' to Robeson) recieved a deed of gift from his father in 1727 for land in Bertie County on the South Side of the Roanoke River near the Quankey Pocosin (the same one that Robert Locklear lived near) in what became Edgecomb County in 1741 and Halifax County in 1758. So even "IF (and this is an "IF") Bartholemew came from VA his son was born on the Roanoke River in NC (I don't know who his son's mother was). Willaim married a woman named Frances who was the daughter of Gibby Gibson and these two were the parents of the Chavis' who came to Robeson. Well anyway, there was a Walter Gibson listed as being a Tuscarora chieftain in 1777. So in all likelihood (considering that both the Chavis's and Locklears were both later living in a community said to have originated from the Roanoke river and to have been a Tuscarora community or "Half-Breed Tuscarora" community) I would say there is a very strong likelihood that Frances was from the same set of Gibsons as Walter.

and,

3.) Lowry (Lowery/Lowrie)- The entire Lowry family in Robeson are descended from a James Lowry who recieved his first Bladen (Robeson) County land grant on October 26, 1767 Mary Norment's 1875 "The Lowrie History" states that "James Lowrie first came to Robeson (then Bladen County) from Bute County (now Franklin and Warren Counties)..........It was in Franklin county that James Lowrie married. His wife's maiden name was Sarah Kearsey (nicknamed Sally Kearsy) a half-breed Tuscarora Indian woman, and from this couple all the Lowries in Robeson trace back their origin. The above statement in regard to the origin of the Lowrie family is not current rumor, but a true statement as given by James Lowrie himself and corraborated by...." she goes on to list nine different witnesses. Well anyway she does state that his father was a white judge from VA, but that's irrellevant because the Kersey Lady from Warren/Bute (right next to Halifax County NC where the Chavis's and Locklears came from) was the source of Indian blood in this family.

Although I'll acknowledge a possible "part" Nansemond or Saponi descent in the Chavis family and some other non-Tuscarora descent in the founder of the Oxendine family they definately were not Cheraw (who lived in SC) The way I read it is that they (all these families together)were mainly Tuscarora (collectively), possibly part Saponi or Nansemond, and in part non-Indian and definately not-Cheraw. The fact that the Indian community in Robeson was Tuscarora at its core is illustrated farther by the fact that the Oxendine descendants in Robeson were at least "in Part" considered to be Tuscarora as well (after they had been there long enough to intermarry with the others) as evidenced by the 1872 statement in the "Swamp Outlaws" describing Pop Oxendine (one of the Lowrie gang members) with the following statement: "Like the rest, he had the Tuscarora Indian blood in him.....

It's not mine to figure out where these names came from...I'm just sitting here reminiscing of all the great people I met with those surnames in my almost 30 years in NC.

[lumbeedancer]

Ok I'm looking at the name list in the Robert K thomas' booklet.

It has chavis listed with the Cheraw of NC and SC.
The Saponi did bring back some cheraw during one of their trips to the Catawba's areas.....Cheraw if I'm not mistaken did band with the catawba.

Chavis is also listed with the Mehrrins ( which I believe was the first area the Chavis was found).

The Chavis surname in Robeson County can be traced back to a Bartholemew Chavis who I mentioned earlier.

As I said earlier, his son William Chavis (who was living on the Roanoke River in Halifax.....right next to the Locklears who came to Robco....who can't be traced at all past that location) married a woman named Frances who was the daughter of Gibby Gibson (there was a branch of the Gibson family also living near by). These two were the parents of the first Chavis' in Robeson.

Well anyway (in regards to the ones you mention being in SC)Williams brother John Chavis (who grew up on the Roanoke in NC) went to SC and is is said to be the probable ancestor of a Frederick Chavis who petitioned the South Carolina Legislature with Lewis Chavis, Durany Chavis, James Jones, Bartley Jones, Mary Jones, Jonathan Williams and Polly Dunn on December 9, 1859 inquiring if persons of Indian descent were considered to be free persons of color and liable to pay the poll tax [South Carolina Archives series S165015, year 1859, item 12

The Chavis's were never listed as Cheraw .....and they didn't originate from the Cheraw area in SC even though some moved there.

In regards to the Thomas booklet......come to think of it I think I did read it before (a friend had it) last month (but I don't have it with me to look back over at the moment and I didn't take any notes....just a quick read through). This may be a different one than you have though.......as the one I read I believe was written specifically for the Lumbee tribe (I don't think it was ever published). I'm gonna have to get back up with my buddy to look over it again.

One thing I do find intiresting about the Chavis family (at least the ones who came to robeson) is that they lived right next to the Locklears and Gibson't before coming here (hell they married into the Gibson family....also intiresting is that there were Gibsons who came here also). One of the Locklear descendants in Robeson (Bettie Locklear) was specifically described as being of Tuscarora origin in Mary Norment's "The Lowrie History" in 1885. It's also ironic that a member of the Gibson family was mentioned as being a Tuscarora Chieftain in 1777 in Bertie (which Halifax was originally part of and still borders to this day). It's also crazy that Gorman specifially stated that Tuscaroras migrated to Robeson from the Roanoke river in Halifax due to encrouchment.

Even more ironic was that there was a documented Tuscarora Chieftain who complained about whites taking Tuscarora land and telling them their tittle is no good in the 1750s...meaning that Gorman described specific reasons Tuscaroras came to Robeson that coincide with recorded history from over 100 yrs prior......even more ironic is that a man by the exact same name as the Chieftain who wrote that letter (James Blount)showed up in Robco (a community that was repeatedly said to be a Tuscarora community and said to have migrated here for the same reasons this documented Chieftain addressed) 2 years after he was last documented as being a chieftain on the Indian Woods reservation on the Roanoke River.

Taking these factors into consideration with other things I've allready stated here earlier (especially the info regarding a Tuscarora identity being the first affiliation ever given by anyone in Robco) and combinig it with what was addressed on your thread (there only being a handfull of saponi's and meherrins in that area......but a crap load of Tuscaroras)..........I hope that people can begin to understand where I'm coming from on this thread (and others where I've touched on this issue).

I am not coming out of left field and all the "REAL EVIDENCE" out there overwelimingly proves that the people in Robeson are primarily of Tuscarora descent!

How Lumbee leaders can know these things and safe-gaurd it from their own people I will never understand. Before I knew about it I spent years asking UNCP profesors things, Legal Service personel things (mainly, a particular fellow who helped write the Lumbee Siouan petition), and numerouse other "SO-CALLED" experts things......and 'NONE OF THEM" would tell me that any information like this existed........'NOT A ONE!" Hell....I even paid to take a college class at UNCP called "History and Culture of the Lumbee".......and every rediculouse theory in the book was discussed.......except for the one (which technically isn't a theory) that actually has evidence to support it!

And they have been doing this Bulls&!t to "EVERYONE" for "YEARS!" Rolling their eyes whenever the word Tuscarora came up.....and basically making me (and everyone else who ever trusted them because of their positions and so-called expertice) never give any creedence whatsoever to the possibility that our people were even connected to the Tuscarora at all......... let alone that that's primarily what they are!

People just have no idea the things that have (and still are)
gone on over the years!

Lums!!!! Please look into these things and start holding people accountable........Go to the UNCP library and take a look at the Lumbee petition and then compare it to what you see on here.......draw whatever conlusions you want..........just make sure you have all the facts before you do...........Things are not what they seem to be. People you might see as your enemies at the moment........just might actually turn out to be looking out for your best intirests at heart in the long run!

[Blackbear]

The Chavis name is associated with the Mehhrrin tribe. The Mehhrrin's was just to the East of Halifax....I would have to look thru my records to see their exact location.

Have you read that Robert K booklet yet? It has lots and lots of information...it even includes a Surname list and brief history on some of the surnames.

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcon...=robert_thomas

There are a few people in Robeson and NC that want to say that the Meherrin are really Tuscaroras... even though a few people historically said they were susquehannas which yes are iroquoian, but not exactly tuscaroras.

[Blackbear]

It's not overwhelming evidence that they are all tuscarora... it is at best a good argument that some of the native makeup of the people in that area includes some tuscarora, unless like Mike and Chris you'd agree to what that DJ said about everyone there being inbred... And I don't trust Mary Normant because she wrote that one of the Lowery's, I think it was James was married to a Mary Kearsey and he was'nt... in fact there is no one in that family back then named Mary Kearsey... his wife was a Cilly, or Pricilla and she had a Jr. Mary Normant lived in a time when Penny Dreadfuls and dime westerns were popular and she was a writer... I am one of the opinion that she made up many of her facts and just because she says, THIS IS NOT RUMOR... does'nt mean she was'nt making it up. There were many books of that time that started that way for credibility and for drama.

Anyhow I fell asleep at the computer... hazzard of new moms... and ran out of time to do more of a reply... hopefully I can come back later on and reply more. Sorry.

[lumbeedancer]

There are a few people in Robeson and NC that want to say that the Meherrin are really Tuscaroras... even though a few people historically said they were susquehannas which yes are iroquoian, but not exactly tuscaroras.

I know several people who speculate that this is very possible..........but I don't know anyone who say's this is a fact.

The logic behind it is in the linguistics.........the 3rd band of tuscaroras name interprets to people of the water.....or something like that........and the Meherrin's traditional name interprets to something very similar........This is just speculation....not fact..........and personally I don't know anyone from Robeson who ever said it was a fact!

[lumbeedancer]

It's not overwhelming evidence that they are all tuscarora... it is at best a good argument that some of the native makeup of the people in that area includes some tuscarora, unless like Mike and Chris you'd agree to what that DJ said about everyone there being inbred... And I don't trust Mary Normant because she wrote that one of the Lowery's, I think it was James was married to a Mary Kearsey and he was'nt... in fact there is no one in that family back then named Mary Kearsey... his wife was a Cilly, or Pricilla and she had a Jr. Mary Normant lived in a time when Penny Dreadfuls and dime westerns were popular and she was a writer... I am one of the opinion that she made up many of her facts and just because she says, THIS IS NOT RUMOR... does'nt mean she was'nt making it up. There were many books of that time that started that way for credibility and for drama.

Anyhow I fell asleep at the computer... hazzard of new moms... and ran out of time to do more of a reply... hopefully I can come back later on and reply more. Sorry.

I'm going to write a thorough response to this sometime next week (you touched on many things that I feel a need to address) ....as right now I'm in the process of moving and don't have the time. In the meantime please provide your source for your James Lowrie/Pricilla claims. I've never seen "PROOF" of such claims....so please provide it if you can.