DNA testing

[2lineCarrandMorgan]

Hello all,

im bring this to powwows , i have many friends here and i have grown to trust yall ways in being state with ppl,
im fixing to put a cotton swab to the inside of my cheek to look for answers of my familys history we have much oral history but no pappers to back up our claims,the test will tell me where and which tribes i come from....
there are many test out there the coust is from 139.00 to 475.00 the higher coust is done in office by a tec and picture of me having the test and certifyed as me giving the DNA for my test, with court excepents of said test both kind will help me see my ppl more clearly the questens i have. is it helpfull to have the test on ppl from looking for tribes excepents ie..if we find what northen tribe my fathers ppl come from can i then go to tribe and ask for pression to learn and grow as a ppl from that tribe as well as being able to to cover myself in the colores of my family ppl ..
if the test is only for finding my answers then of course the lower cost one is good anuff but if prouff is to be shown i would need to go to the hight cost one
this is my questen ^

hopeing for yall input on this
thank you

[timmy tiger]

Hi 2Lines. You know me and I'm straight up about things. This subject has been covered on a few of the other threads, so not to repeat myself or forget something I'm gonna give you the link to them here:

https://www.powwows.com/gathering/news/41557-mowa-choctaws.html

^^^ this was the second thread and I, believe, I gave some research sites to look up to verify how accurate that DNA testing really is.

Here is the first site that we started it in and it was like page 4 on this site:

https://www.powwows.com/gathering/native-issues/40864-fake-tribes-vs-we-too-real-tribes-5.html

It was also brought up in the Genealogy Social Group and I stated a few things.


Now, please don't get me wrong here, I really like to talk about DNA. I've done alot of research on it, as much as I do on Genealogy, and I am very interested in it. But it is far not as accurate as many would have us believing.


But I would suggest that you look into it before you spend your money on it, honestly I would.

[2lineCarrandMorgan]

thank you T T and yes we can speak to each other for just about anything thank you for showing me some of your study on the matter,i have friend that are in high places in there native american roots and are phds and thay did it lol my friend are studing about mexican and native american ppl .like meny mexican ppl are also native american by blood and some family culchur ,anyway i went to a meeting where thay talk openly about these things.
i think its about looking for markers that other ppl with the same dna have ,but i was wondering if after finding the markers that thay really cant lie about would then say a ppl except that paper to conseder for membership in said tribe as far as what im thinking i dont think a person would have any native american markers if thay did not its not that new of a scince, so even if from a trible point of view maybe not good anuff but knowing that our family story are in our blood it good for me. i understan that the very tribe swe come from might not be noticed be just looking there will help me i dont think its a shame or a trick i think they can show me true.
well TT i got to go to my moms house but please keep on with you piont of view
thanks

[OLChemist]

At the risk of being harsh....

Save your money. If you need a piece of paper with some percentage points on it, you're not going to connect much with your Native heritage. It may make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but it isn't going to open any doors for you. You'll get more Native street cred' using that money to help out your local Native community.

1) There is no gene for culture. Culture is like the flu and insanity, you get it from your family.

2) There is a lot of subtlety to these tests. Take the wrong kind, and/or be the wrong gender and you're out of luck. While post-docing I was offered an opportunity to take a mtDNA test as part of study being done in one of the University labs. During my discussions with one of the researchers it became clear that all this test would show was some nice European mtDNA from my mom's Euro-American mother and nary a genetic peep from her Native dad.

3) No tribe that I'm aware of will enroll from a DNA test. So the legal mumbo-jumbo seems to be strictly to make you feel like it's all official.

4) No test will ever replace lost family connections.

[RDNKJ]

Hey 2Line,

This is not meant for you specifically, but for anyone considering DNA testing. If you have the money to spare and it is something that will be meaningful to YOU, by all means go for it.

However, I think most people have the tests in order to prove what group they already "know" they belong to. Before having DNA testing done, they should also ask themselves how they will feel if the test "proves" that they are not who they think they are.

I always think of Oprah who (if I remember correctly) thought she was Zulu, but then had DNA testing and found out she was some other tribe.

Anyway...good luck whatever you decide.

[Josiah]

At the risk of being harsh....

Save your money. If you need a piece of paper with some percentage points on it, you're not going to connect much with your Native heritage. It may make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but it isn't going to open any doors for you. You'll get more Native street cred' using that money to help out your local Native community.

1) There is no gene for culture. Culture is like the flu and insanity, you get it from your family.

2) There is a lot of subtlety to these tests. Take the wrong kind, and/or be the wrong gender and you're out of luck. While post-docing I was offered an opportunity to take a mtDNA test as part of study being done in one of the University labs. During my discussions with one of the researchers it became clear that all this test would show was some nice European mtDNA from my mom's Euro-American mother and nary a genetic peep from her Native dad.

3) No tribe that I'm aware of will enroll from a DNA test. So the legal mumbo-jumbo seems to be strictly to make you feel like it's all official.

4) No test will ever replace lost family connections.

The more I read about this form of DNA test the more I think they are using the fact that DNA is used to catch criminals which puts it in the mind of the public that it must be able to tell me that I am Indian.
It is not possible to prove any such connection through this form of testing!

Unfortunately the public wants to believe that science can do this for them when it can't!
There are people out there that pray on the unwary and they will make a lot of money off of this!

[Josiah]

Hey 2Line,

This is not meant for you specifically, but for anyone considering DNA testing. If you have the money to spare and it is something that will be meaningful to YOU, by all means go for it.

However, I think most people have the tests in order to prove what group they already "know" they belong to. Before having DNA testing done, they should also ask themselves how they will feel if the test "proves" that they are not who they think they are.

I always think of Oprah who (if I remember correctly) thought she was Zulu, but then had DNA testing and found out she was some other tribe.

Anyway...good luck whatever you decide.

LOL
It only Proved that the FEMALES in her Family tree were not ZULU

[timmy tiger]

Great posts everyone. I really do like conversations about DNA.

I've had the MtDNA and the Autosomal DNA tests done on me, not for the same reasons, for other reasons.
Here's something that Old chemist brought up--you really have to make sure that the test you are about to take and pay big bucks for is going to give you the info that you are looking for. Many of them do not or can be interpreted in other ways as well. When I took the MtDna I was working with a Genetics expert MD at the Childrens hospital near me and he was sharing alot of info with me as well. Well the test that I took was called a Linear Array and it was nothing more then a cheat sheet and a total waist of money actually. I later found out that there are other tests that would have tested more genes for less or the same amount of money. I still have some more testing to be done, again for other reasons that what you are talking about here.

These tests can not narrow down an exact tribe in any way and if they claim that, they are falsely representing the facts. They can only give you a possibly probability, not an exact or even an exact blood degree. And as Josiah has said no tribe right now accepts DNA as a means of enrollement.

We do alot of discussions on DNA and Genealogy here too and I've had the one test and so did a friend of mine. Well I have another friend who works for an outreach program and both his parents were born and raised on Pine Ridge, he is totally Lakota and he wants to take the test and compare them with mine and our other friend and see just how his will come out, more so that we can speak more accurately to people and have something to back us up when we do these talks about these things. But right now he just doesn't have the extra money to spend for that reason.

Another thing here is that yes they check "Ancestrial Identification Markers" (AIM's) however if you really look into this you will find that we all carry 11,000+ AIM's in our DNA sequencing, but they only test 177 of these AIM's (I thnk there coming out with another test that will test more, but only like 200+). So what about the other's? And what is the possibility that if they test a different 177 that the results would be totally different? They have a set 177 that they call "Hot spots", but I still think that that's only based on the European or African backgrounds that they've done alot more testing in, another background might be very different--it's a possibility anyway--I think. Also, they very clearly state (After you've paid for and taken the test by the way) that each person gets two genes from each of their parents who get two genes from each of their parents and on back, so there are alot of genes from our ancestors that each of us is actually missing.LOL And another thing is that: let's take you and say you have two siblings--all of you could have different AIM's based on simple "accident of conception" and the "luck of the draw" during your conception as to which of your parents genes that you inherite and which ones that your siblings inherite.

One thing when I was working with or dealing with the Geneatics doctor is that he confirmed that those Sibling DNA test can only conclusively confirm to a 1/8% that you and your siblings are actually siblings. Because of the Genes and how they are shared from parent to child.

And as for the DNA being used for legal purposes, I've seen 3 cases where a good attorney who knew about DNA was able to prove it fauleable for purposes of Paternity and Child Support.

There are many forms of DNA and many different Gene's that are tested for different reasons. Most people or many believe that DNA it's self is one thing, it's really not. I've listed, again, several of the different types and they all go together to make us each who we are as individual's.

And I totally agree with all the posts above that if someone is wanting to use DNA for purposes of confirming or proving their Ancestrial background that they are waisting their money. Again, it can only give you a possible probability, but that can be different too based on what other genes and marker's your parents have or your siblings.

[2lineCarrandMorgan]

lol ok yall are a tuff crowed but i already knew that lol i will take the lower coust test and send some money to pineridge good word old chimest ,any way i belive that some of my anstrey will show ,and yep its when all the doors are closed and no paper trail will be found to confermed my blood line , some dna test are for the ppls who do not need a test or have goten one for thier own reasons,thier reasons are better than mine ? lol, i want one , i would like to know what test to take though,on a diffrent borad a gail found out she was mextic [sp] and 1/4 anyways thay now have meny diffrent ppls markers from native america and mine could all be resavia i know but cheers to looking i got to love yall.... now Im not going to spend a lot of money for one either but i will be happy with the test and years down the road maby a diffrent kind of test will come
RDNKJ,thank you im hoping to find what i have not been able to fine on the gov papers anywahere i feel that this is a contunes of my life jounrey just a step for me the money is from my income tax and not all of it either i could not go and make reaglia becouse i have not premission i could send to ppl but also i have a right to follow my choise to test and see with a eye for not everthing is revealed but some showen .

just in case yall forgot me, my mother, my grand mother, grate grand mother her Father possible her mother to and a first wife= one line. Choctaw

me, my dad, his mother, her father = 2 line northern woodlands
come on surly i can find out more from a test.....

its with joy that i look and my honner to do so ...here to you the Carrs and Morgans lets us walk, Mom and Dad Grand and Grate when we look may your life gift to me be showen in the wonderful mistery of who I am...

[timmy tiger]

2Lines, there is nothing wrong with wanting to do something out of curiosity.

Now, something else that you should know and understand as well. If you read through any of the Ancestry DNA testing center's they say that they will make your results available, without your name of course (something like that) on the Universal database. Well, what they don't say--but I did find, is that that universal data base-all their records go to the Feds as well, so the gov and other doctors and places like that will have access to your DNA information. Kiind of like in the thread Paranoia. I didn't know that for sure until I started looking around and researching it and I found some of these databases and they all say that they are regestered with the Feds.LOL I don't have a problem with that, but some might or do and so you really should know upfront who will have access or may have access to your DNA information. Yes, it's confidential to people like you and me, but not to the Gov.LOL

So if you really are curious and are gonna be tested. There are some things for you to look at. Are you just looking at your mother's mother's mother's side all the way back only your female line? Then that would be a MtDNA and they are about $100 for the ancestrial information part of that test. There is a website that offers these tests and as a matter of fact, they are the ones that I got my test through, but I went to a federally accredited lab for the results.

However, if you are looking to find out about both sides of your family--mother and father's side. Then you will want to go with an Autosomal DNA test and they run about $250. I went looking and it's different from when I had mine done, so I really couldn't make a full recomendation without looking more closely at what they test and where. I really don't have the time to do that right now as I am heading out of town tomorrow. But just letting you know that that's the one that you would want.

[SuzzeQ4]

2 line: I agree with what everyone said, then I re-read your first post to confirm what you are looking for. I am concerned that you so desperatly want info that you may have misunderstood what the test will give you. In your first post you said you want to find what Northern Tribe your Father's ppl are. These test will Not show your Fathers ppl, just you Mother's, her mothers etc. Also many Nations and ppl have refused to submit dna to help identify our markers, so ours are based on less info and research and can only give you area's, not specific Nations. Even if what you are looking for is there it wouldn't show it and I don't think it's that accurate. If this is the path you want I'd suggest a professional geneologist instead. Also you are so connected to your family, why not find your identity there rather then chasing down a family legend that you may not find, or may find it to be more myth then legend?

Seriously I say this alll in kindness, and you must know from my others posts this isn't always my style.

[timmy tiger]

lol ok yall are a tuff crowed but i already knew that lol i will take the lower coust test and send some money to pineridge good word old chimest ,any way i belive that some of my anstrey will show ,and yep its when all the doors are closed and no paper trail will be found to confermed my blood line , some dna test are for the ppls who do not need a test or have goten one for thier own reasons,thier reasons are better than mine ? lol, i want one , i would like to know what test to take though,on a diffrent borad a gail found out she was mextic [sp] and 1/4 anyways thay now have meny diffrent ppls markers from native america and mine could all be resavia i know but cheers to looking i got to love yall.... now Im not going to spend a lot of money for one either but i will be happy with the test and years down the road maby a diffrent kind of test will come
RDNKJ,thank you im hoping to find what i have not been able to fine on the gov papers anywahere i feel that this is a contunes of my life jounrey just a step for me the money is from my income tax and not all of it either i could not go and make reaglia becouse i have not premission i could send to ppl but also i have a right to follow my choise to test and see with a eye for not everthing is revealed but some showen .

just in case yall forgot me, my mother, my grand mother, grate grand mother her Father possible her mother to and a first wife= one line. Choctaw

me, my dad, his mother, her father = 2 line northern woodlands
come on surly i can find out more from a test.....

its with joy that i look and my honner to do so ...here to you the Carrs and Morgans lets us walk, Mom and Dad Grand and Grate when we look may your life gift to me be showen in the wonderful mistery of who I am...

I missed that part before. Honestly 2Lines, it will not show you anymore then what we have stated above. And it will not give you any information as to what area any of your ancestor's came from. The best it will tell you is this "You may be X amt. and that's where you might want to start looking". However, from my experience in doing genealogy, that is not where you want to start at all--always with yourself first and then go back to where you think it might be. A scientific test can not give you more info then you can find through documents, old census records, old county records and even old newspaper's and other documents that are out there too. These records will give you so much more info then a DNA test several generations later then the person that you might be looking for.

And you know that I'm really not trying to be mean here at all, I am just being honest with you and letting you know upfront what they are.

[2lineCarrandMorgan]

2 line: I agree with what everyone said, then I re-read your first post to confirm what you are looking for. I am concerned that you so desperatly want info that you may have misunderstood what the test will give you. In your first post you said you want to find what Northern Tribe your Father's ppl are. These test will Not show your Fathers ppl, just you Mother's, her mothers etc. Also many Nations and ppl have refused to submit dna to help identify our markers, so ours are based on less info and research and can only give you area's, not specific Nations. Even if what you are looking for is there it wouldn't show it and I don't think it's that accurate. If this is the path you want I'd suggest a professional geneologist instead. Also you are so connected to your family, why not find your identity there rather then chasing down a family legend that you may not find, or may find it to be more myth then legend?

Seriously I say this alll in kindness, and you must know from my others posts this isn't always my style.

yes i would say how are you? yes thats why i said somthing here i knew i would get strate answers verying from presonal feeling eash has thier own,and facks ...what i may find is somthing i dont know and meny ppl have done these test but most wont say here ,thay are finding losted info.sence i started it has becomed clearer that i may not find a spcific tribe id but with a marker and GRo.reagon im closer than i was i do talk to family im 50 years now my mom 20 something years older....we do talk but you could understand that sometime the trail is gone except for blood and oral history and you could bet your botton dollare if there is a way for me to understand my pass by looking at my dna it will be done ...im not trying to convert any of the ppl who post on this thread i m listening to what yall are saying to me,and if the ppl who do dna are lyning then why are thay still in buness ?i belive there somthing to this but if you dont mind Suzzy this is my buness ,and i do regurad your heart here and it should not cauz you to become up set.im not takeing anything from you im just takeing somthing from me and looking for my blood line in other ppl blood lines to see where and who we match .
surly you can understand this oh and b the way there are test that test both mother and father from child s DNA thats me...loli will post a few link s DNA Tribes Personal Genetic Analysis

this is somthing new to me and im learning about it fast i did see where moms line might just take me across the pond but i keep reading and there are a 50 50 of both mom and dad and my dad is another one that the line went fome mother to father so i still need to look some more on the testing and a dr. im still learning thank you suzzy i will keep posting about this corncering my understanding ,oh thank you for not busting a nut on this .

[2lineCarrandMorgan]

I missed that part before. Honestly 2Lines, it will not show you anymore then what we have stated above. And it will not give you any information as to what area any of your ancestor's came from. The best it will tell you is this "You may be X amt. and that's where you might want to start looking". However, from my experience in doing genealogy, that is not where you want to start at all--always with yourself first and then go back to where you think it might be. A scientific test can not give you more info then you can find through documents, old census records, old county records and even old newspaper's and other documents that are out there too. These records will give you so much more info then a DNA test several generations later then the person that you might be looking for.

And you know that I'm really not trying to be mean here at all, I am just being honest with you and letting you know upfront what they are.

Hi TT i took a long time posting and i missed your new post in the prosses well im still thinking about all this and you do have a point about the lines im still listening ...thank you

[2lineCarrandMorgan]

2Lines, there is nothing wrong with wanting to do something out of curiosity.

Now, something else that you should know and understand as well. If you read through any of the Ancestry DNA testing center's they say that they will make your results available, without your name of course (something like that) on the Universal database. Well, what they don't say--but I did find, is that that universal data base-all their records go to the Feds as well, so the gov and other doctors and places like that will have access to your DNA information. Kiind of like in the thread Paranoia. I didn't know that for sure until I started looking around and researching it and I found some of these databases and they all say that they are regestered with the Feds.LOL I don't have a problem with that, but some might or do and so you really should know upfront who will have access or may have access to your DNA information. Yes, it's confidential to people like you and me, but not to the Gov.LOL

So if you really are curious and are gonna be tested. There are some things for you to look at. Are you just looking at your mother's mother's mother's side all the way back only your female line? Then that would be a MtDNA and they are about $100 for the ancestrial information part of that test. There is a website that offers these tests and as a matter of fact, they are the ones that I got my test through, but I went to a federally accredited lab for the results.

However, if you are looking to find out about both sides of your family--mother and father's side. Then you will want to go with an Autosomal DNA test and they run about $250. I went looking and it's different from when I had mine done, so I really couldn't make a full recomendation without looking more closely at what they test and where. I really don't have the time to do that right now as I am heading out of town tomorrow. But just letting you know that that's the one that you would want.

im read reading ttoo well from what i understad at this point if its my father mother that im looking for it wont show but might skip to his grand father on his mothers side i dont know


get some rest TT i can make a few calls tomorrow but yall are so sweet to try and help this stubborn woman thank you and safe travels really i love yall im going to sleep to and Suzzy thank you too