Could the Cherokee lose their status as a tribe and disappear?

[jorbathehutt]

I have been reading about the Freedman issue, and I was wondering, if the courts rule on dissolving the Cherokee Nation, what will happen to the tribe?

I am really stressed about this, and it scares me really bad. My whole family could lose their rights, culture, and possibly even their houses and property.

Could that really happen? If so, we Cherokee need to take action now!

[Zeke]

I have been reading about the Freedman issue, and I was wondering, if the courts rule on dissolving the Cherokee Nation, what will happen to the tribe?

I am really stressed about this, and it scares me really bad. My whole family could lose their rights, culture, and possibly even their houses and property.

Could that really happen? If so, we Cherokee need to take action now!

While I consider this question a form of intellectual masturbation, it seems likely that, eventually, ALL tribes will lose the significant quota of entitlement protections: it's just a matter of when and how much.

Related to the Feds and services, et al, it was a major error to invite scrutiny for <3k people. Sure, some Cherokee elitists might say that they are, "exercising their Right to determine who is part of their tribe," but that is a VERY weak argument: sort of like a sixteen-year-old thinking he's a man because his folks let him come and go as he pleases.

You're, still, at the will and pleasure.

And, now, you're irritating the leviathan.

Will the Cherokee disappear? Not very likely. Could they, in a recognition-driven model, lose status, entitlements, privileges, etc? "Sure." But so could any other tribe, on any given day. That's just the world that we live in, which is reason 7,298 why our glorified model sucks.

But, by all means, kick the hornet's nest over a few thousand people. [sarcasm]That's real intelligent.[/sarcasm]

[tribaltagz]

Imho

The Cherokee Nation and the Cherokee People are very different things. Can the Cherokee as a Nation dissappear? Yes and probably one day all tribes as distinct political entities will. Due to Tribal governments relying on federal monies and recognition, when the government says, "we're done honoring our treaties with you." and cut off those programs and monies, 99% of tribes will cease to exist. Cherokee Nation, and other tribes, see this and have made it a goal to reduce their dependence on US monies by %1 a year, so that when and if that day comes, Cherokee Nation can still continue to exist and operate.
The Cherokee People who still live in our home communities will ALWAYS exist, just as they did after statehood in 1907 when the tribal governments here were dissolved. Just becaus we didn't have a political entity recognized by the government we didnt stop going to the ceremonial grounds, or cooking our traditional foods or speaking our language.
When we, as Native people, cease to be ethnically and culturally different than anyone else, that's when the government will question why we should exist as seperate entities. That's why our languages are important. That why our distinct tribal cultures are important.

[IlnuSoldier]

Eventually all countries disappear..... ALL of them..

Eventually.. all the tribes will fade away ... and eventually the USA will fade away...

in 1000 years the political landscape will look very different..

So yea.. due to the nature of politics... the Cherokee Nation will fade away.

However--- if the "Cherokee People" (as a culture, blood-lines, language) etc.etc.. last another 1000 years is all up to their own choice and effort.

But..even then.. at some point... even the Cherokee People will fade away.

Nothing last. So, enjoy it while it is there.. but don't cling to it... all of your Cherokee relatives will have passed on and you will remain a ghost, haunting the old reservation lands...

Not very appealing enit?

Thing is--- don't worry about it. It is beyond your control.

The White Father is the choice maker concerning Reservations because the Reservations belong to him.

You should focus on what you actually can control --- your own mind.

[Josiah]

For all intent and purposes of this discussion it already happened to the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.

In 1907 the Tribal Government was dissolved and disbanded...

In 1934 Congress authorized the Indian Reorganization act which allow tribal governments to form back together so as the provide social programs to tribal members

It was not until 1948 that Cherokees convened a convention to begin the process!
Our present Government of the Cherokee Nation was formed in 1974 after we ratified our Constitution
So we have gone years without a formal government


But during all that period We were still Cherokee
Still went to Stomp dance and still spoke our Language
My Grandma lived from 1907 to 1969 so in all that time she did not know a Cherokee Government and yet she spoke only Cherokee and knew no other ways. Did not make her any less Cherokee and as far as she was concerned they could stick it>>>

[legalstraight]

Zeke, I do get your point, but I disagree.....

The core of what makes a tribe a Nation is their ability to determine who their citizens are. The Vann (freedman) case hinges on just that issue.

The mainstream media have largely covered this as a racial issue- it is not, it is a citizenship issue. The Nation is full of folks who are also of African Ancestry, Latin Ancestry, even Asian Ancestry so long as they also have one ancestor listed on the Dawes Rolls as a Cherokee. Unfortunately the racial issue touches a nerve in America and so the Nation has been targeted.

As a constitutional government under the IRA and as a Sovereign Nation cannot be 'dissolved' by another government. In the past the U.S. government has 'terminated' the federal relationship with the tribe, but this did not mean there was no tribe, and under the current circumstances this is highly unlikely to occur again.

At the moment Cherokee is being singled out to NOT receive certain funds in appropriations bills. I have faith that this situation will be resolved in the near future.

If you are genuinely interested in this issue I recommend you read the Cherokee Phoenix and the press releases on the Nations website and turn off CSPAN.

[Zeke]

As a constitutional government under the IRA and as a Sovereign Nation cannot be 'dissolved' by another government.

Really? I'm forced to -- vehemently -- disagree.

In the past the U.S. government has 'terminated' the federal relationship with the tribe, but this did not mean there was no tribe, and under the current circumstances this is highly unlikely to occur again.

But could, whenever they want it to: which is the POINT.

At the moment Cherokee is being singled out to NOT receive certain funds in appropriations bills. I have faith that this situation will be resolved in the near future.

Yeah, "me, too."

If you are genuinely interested in this issue I recommend you read the Cherokee Phoenix and the press releases on the Nations website and turn off CSPAN.

Oh, you mean I should read someone else's propaganda? You know, the delusional ones that fantasize that they are actually sovereign?

"Limited sovereignty = oxymoron."

[LaughingWaterWI]

Going Through Same Thing!

I have been reading about the Freedman issue, and I was wondering, if the courts rule on dissolving the Cherokee Nation, what will happen to the tribe?

I am really stressed about this, and it scares me really bad. My whole family could lose their rights, culture, and possibly even their houses and property.

Could that really happen? If so, we Cherokee need to take action now!

I am Mississippi and our chairwoman Erma vizenor is doing something that would basically have the same results. The Mississippi Chippewa through a Treaty of 1867 between us and the US created the White Earth Reservation. We belong to a compact of 6 chippewa tribes called the MCT. The name of our Rez is The White Earth Band Of Chippewas. Heres where it gets cloudy. There are 3 other enrolled band members on this rez. We have the Lake Superior, Pembina, and the Piliager bands. The Piliager band is the main reason this is all happening its all overe equal rights. The Piliagers were a homeless chippewa tribe and were approved by the commissioner to move onto the rez. this in fact is in an actual report. Now this chairwoman has ratified a new constitution, and plans to rename our reservation the White Earth Nation. So what happens to the Mississipi's with the Treaty well yeah it is gone. Aborgrated and decimated.We will have to join this new nation under a civil law doctrine with none of our treay rights. cause you can not have two soverign nations within one country. She has a tribal court all set up and it is going on right now she is now calling herself the president our nation. I wonder if she is fact been talking to your enemies. I would not be surprised if it wasnt going on they do everything behind our backs and with the governments support. They have the money to go where they need to go and do what they want to do without any of our approval. Our voices do not count. I am working hard to stop what is going on at my reservation so if you have any contact info please I would like to speak with someone on this issue. it seems as though these two tribes are the hottest topic accross Indian land. That and enrollment well she plans on eliminating our enrollment blood quantum. Her plan is to break away from the MCT 6 compact. So now I know how you feel it's really serious. If I had no treaty rights I would never try to decimate a historic federaly recognized tribe for my own selfish desire to have equal rights it's just not right.

[LaughingWaterWI]

I wrote a response to this and it never got posted why is that? who is the moderator in here cause I did not say anything that was offensive or not true. It really had alot to do with this issue how can I find out what went wrong with my post and i can correct it.

[OLChemist]

Posts to this forum do not have to be approved. And in the rare cases when posts are removed, there is a message noting that a post has been deleted. If you don't see your post and you don't see a message saying it has been deleted, then in all likelihood the connection to the server got dropped and the message was lost. Unfortunate, but there really is no sinister plot to censor your posting:)

[LaughingWaterWI]

Check This OUT-White Earth Forming A New Natiion

Ok I will try again to make my point. Listen carefully, the government is suppose to be in on our side it was a promise they made to us when our ancestors made treaty’s. Can treaty’s be broken? Yes they can, under certain circumstances. I did my home work, I looked this up. I am a enrolled member of the Mississippi Chippewa band in 1867 we signed a treaty with the US creating White Band of Chippewa’s. Then we moved onto this reservation. There were other Chippewa’s that signed their own treaty’s like the OtterTail Pillagers 1847. Ok Over the last 150 sum years conflicts and investigations went on, in 1911 they tried to remove 86 Mississippi mixed bloods. They were in fact never removed because under a previous treaty their Chiefs made provisions for their half blooded relatives in 1854 and in 1867 Treaty’s. Then the 1868 murder of Hole In The day Mississippi Chief. Which a certain Mississippi families were blamed for. Because Hole in the Day only wanted full bloods on this reservation, so he was killed. All in all these claims and wounds are stemmed FROM THE PAST against the Mississippi’s. Now 142 years later they( THE NON TREATY CHIPPEWA’S) want to Make a new Nation and call it the White Earth Nation, breaking away from the Minnesota Chippewa Tribes constitution. The Mississippi’s along with 5 other Chippewa reservations formed the MCT in 1934, ie‘ Bois Forte, Fond du Lac, Grand Portage, Leech Lake, Mille Lacs, and White Earth reservations. At White Earth we also have living amongst us 3 other bands of enrolled Chippewa’s. The Lake Superiors, The Pembina, and The Otter Tail Pillagers all NON Treaty Chippewa. The Otter Tail pillagers were homeless begging the government for protection and a place to live this is all documented truth it happened in 1879. Well the Interior and the commissioners felt sorry for these people and allowed them some land 20 miles east of the agency at White Earth. Now here comes the part that is never mentioned in the News. Our Chairwoman just recently signed a New Ratified Constitution which approved by delegates, 16 votes out of 24 in favor, delegates all hand picked by her. This New Constitution never mentions the 1867 Treaty of the Mississippi’s or the fact that under this Treaty it is what makes this a Federally Recognized Reservation. They mention the treaty but not in any way does it provide this exact information. These People have conspired to decimate the Mississippi band members and abrogate their treaty so that they are forced to join this new Nation. There CAN NOT BE 2 SOVEREIGN NATIONS WITH IN ONE RESERVATION. So one has got to go. Why are they doing this it’s simple the non treaty people want Equal Rights and Protection. They also want to enroll their relatives who are not even 1/32 of native blood, in fact they are eliminating the blood quantum rule altogether in this new constitution. So now we will be under a Civil Rights Code of Law, that is how it states it in this new constitution. Believe me the Mississippi band members are shocked at how this all happen? Trust your tribal Chair and tribal leaders to protect you yeah right. This woman won the election in 2006 was sworn in under the old constitution to protect and preserve our rights, the same woman turns around and presents this new constitution taking away our Sovereignty and our Treaty rights away. Our resources, our hunting and fishing, medical ect all provided for us under this 1867 treaty. This new constitution has to have a referendum vote before it is activated. Although she has a tribal court in place operating under this new civil law code, which violates Mississippi’s treaty rights. Do a google search on Senator Bunkers essay on how to over throw a country. You for one pick a country with illiteracy, turmoil, and proceed behind closed doors for 10 years then surprise, here is your New Nation like or leave it.

[Zeke]

There CAN NOT BE 2 SOVEREIGN NATIONS WITH IN ONE RESERVATION.

There cannot be a true sovereign nation on land that isn't yours. (It's Federal Reserve Land.) You're just being grouped together as chattel, because that's what you ARE.

Seriously, it took you as much investigation -- and writing -- as you have done to figure this out?

Let's cut to the chase: you're NOT a sovereign nation. ("Limited" sovereignty is an oxymoron.) When everyone figures that out, we can move forward: together.

Your tribal chair merely seems to have a tiny bit of Vision. You're ALL Chippewa: make a new, unified, pseudo-nation and quit fighting over the Great White Father's table scraps.

It's demeaning.

[LaughingWaterWI]

Demeaning,Divided,Decimate, However;

This was meant to show the person that started this thread what is going on all across Native country. I understand what you are saying about the land thing and Sovereignty. If you have so much insight and possible solutions that are not DEMEANING, then wave that magic wand of yours and try convincing the people who are losing their Ancestral Home. The Feds Land .I doubt that. We never came over to this country on a boat. This country, had the biggest terroristic take over there ever has been. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Racism was never a concern with our native people, until the boats started coming in like flies over stink water. So now at it’s the 20<SUP>th</SUP> we should all be good little Indians and succumb to the White man’s Bigotry civil rights law. They should decide who resides on our reservations. I only know one thing and that’s ignorance never prevails. It hasn't taken me a master mind nor a investigation to figure out that the US Bureaucracy was never our way of life.

[Zeke]

This was meant to show the person that started this thread what is going on all across Native country. I understand what you are saying about the land thing and Sovereignty. If you have so much insight and possible solutions that are not DEMEANING, then wave that magic wand of yours and try convincing the people who are losing their Ancestral Home. The Feds Land .I doubt that. We never came over to this country on a boat. This country, had the biggest terroristic take over there ever has been. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Racism was never a concern with our native people, until the boats started coming in like flies over stink water. So now at it’s the 20<SUP>th</SUP> we should all be good little Indians and succumb to the White man’s Bigotry civil rights law. They should decide who resides on our reservations. I only know one thing and that’s ignorance never prevails. It hasn't taken me a master mind nor a investigation to figure out that the US Bureaucracy was never our way of life.

Until today, you short-sighted, sad, little person. (Sorry, am not -- normally -- so direct: but your whiny effervescence has brought me to new heights.)

You're stuck in 1890.

The reality is, right, wrong or indifferent, that it IS, now, the Federales' land. You're just not dealing in reality. Here's a hint: WE LOST.

So, we have to deal in the rational REAL WORLD. To begin with, we're NOT nations. Natives tribes are recognized at the will and pleasure of the Federal government. Worse, we're willing to be separatist, whining, little cry-babies and do not realize that our ONLY opportunity to create our own destiny is AS A POLITICAL UNIT. (If, to be honest, at all.) In sum, sovereignty is a joke. Live with that fact.

So, what do we do? Cease being tiny, small, indoctrinated, living in 1890, pipe-dream losers at the brink of Natural Selection and formulate a NEW plan. Do you know what it starts with?

NOT THINKING LIKE YOU DO.

It's no longer a question of whether or not "they" decide who lives on their designated Federal reserve Land, they DO. And you will not, cannot, and -- because it is a waste of time -- SHOULD not endeavour to fight what was, already, long decided. That's just romanticist b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t and is crying over spilled milk.

Pull your head out of your posterior and, at least TRY, to move forward. The most optimistic analysis of your strategy means that you desire to just be the BEST ward of the government. That's sad beyond measure.

You're right: ignorance never prevails.

So, STOP being ignorant.

It's not that hard. Find some intestinal fortitude.

The way you think makes me ill.

[LaughingWaterWI]

Now convince the rest of &quot; Indian Country&quot;

Until today, you short-sighted, sad, little person. (Sorry, am not -- normally -- so direct: but your whiny effervescence has brought me to new heights.)

You're stuck in 1890.

The reality is, right, wrong or indifferent, that it IS, now, the Federales' land. You're just not dealing in reality. Here's a hint: WE LOST.

So, we have to deal in the rational REAL WORLD. To begin with, we're NOT nations. Natives tribes are recognized at the will and pleasure of the Federal government. Worse, we're willing to be separatist, whining, little cry-babies and do not realize that our ONLY opportunity to create our own destiny is AS A POLITICAL UNIT. (If, to be honest, at all.) In sum, sovereignty is a joke. Live with that fact.

So, what do we do? Cease being tiny, small, indoctrinated, living in 1890, pipe-dream losers at the brink of Natural Selection and formulate a NEW plan. Do you know what it starts with?

NOT THINKING LIKE YOU DO.

It's no longer a question of whether or not "they" decide who lives on their designated Federal reserve Land, they DO. And you will not, cannot, and -- because it is a waste of time -- SHOULD not endeavour to fight what was, already, long decided. That's just romanticist b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t and is crying over spilled milk.

Pull your head out of your posterior and, at least TRY, to move forward. The most optimistic analysis of your strategy means that you desire to just be the BEST ward of the government. That's sad beyond measure.

You're right: ignorance never prevails.

So, STOP being ignorant.

It's not that hard. Find some intestinal fortitude.

The way you think makes me ill.

All the land was once ours, it was taken by force. We all understand that. People from Native Country will never cease to bring this issue up. Dont direct your statements to just me there are Many Tribal Nations who have court cases going on. Mille Lacs in fact won their case about Soverignty they have hunting and fishing rights that was once a big problem. Issue solved because they took it to court, Cases like Crow Dog, I could go on an on. If you are calling me Ignorant then you are also calling all tribal Nations Ignorant because they will continue to fight for their rights. Do you disagree with that too? If you do you are way out numbered on this issue. I sugest you open your eyes to reality and stop attacking the people who have felt this way for hundreds of years, and guess what they are still think the same way. So put that in your pipe an smoke it.