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  • Two-spirit dancing

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  • #2
    first: what tribe are you? it makes a difference to the discussion
    and
    my thought are this:
    there is stuff that women are supposed to do and arent supposed to do
    there is stuff that men are supposed to and stuff they arent supposed to

    in some ways there are people who fall between these lines and can do certain things, but i dont think dancing "mens traditional" is one of them, im not northern but thats just how it seems to me, maybe a northerner could add their thoughts since that is where that dance comes from

    maybe go with mens fancy if your really wanting to dance like a man..
    for one thing women used to do that, ive seen pics and talked to a few older women who have when they were younger

    and if you danced fancy it would probably be harder for people to tell your a women, since it sounds like your set on dancing like a man

    another note is that if you are going to dance as a man at least make yourself look like a man and not halfway (i dont know how you dress yourself or how you look, but if people can tell your a woman that easily that all kinds of people are coming up to you about it your probably looking a bit womanly..) maybe you need a compression shirt..

    and just as a side note i am stating this because i am myself gay (tho i dont call myself "two-spirit" for a few reasons, but thats a different discussion) and so i am just sharing my opinions with you as a peer in that respect...

    and from my own standpoint i dance as a man and live my life as a man (and last time i checked im biologically male, just to clarify lol) but i dont know of anyone off hand in my generation that habitually dances in the clothes of a gender they are not biologically endowed with lol (0_0)
    tho i do know people that switch dance and may even do so quite often but that isnt really the same thing

    thats what i think, take it or leave it, im nobody important to be dictating what you can or cant do, but thats what i think and thats my advice

    ---
    just thought i would add that actually i cant think of anyone off hand that habitually dresses in clothes of the "opposite gender" -in the powwow arena- of any generation, with the exception of the previously stated woman fancy feather dancers.. but from what i understand that wasnt really an "alternative gender" thing...
    ---
    just noticied you stated switch dance is "a mocking of heritage and culture".. why would you say that?
    Last edited by HaskellAlum; 04-02-2011, 05:17 AM. Reason: two added thoughts

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    • #3
      You are not forgotten

      I am so excited to hear of you. :) I see the struggles the gay and lesbian community are going through right now and whenever someone brings up the topic I always say the same thing
      "Well, ya know in most Native cultures homosexual, bisexual, trasngendered, etc. were revered by their community, they were seen as possesing something magical and special that was to be shared, loved, and honored; not shunned, rejected or hated." I'm usually confronted with looks of confusion after this. To which I continue "Ya know, because it was like they posses two spirits....could see both sides," It usually clicked about then and the "oh yeahs" and "I could see that" starts (I also live in a mostly liberal area of northern CA). Thankfully I didn't have to continue because I didn't know a whole, whole lot. Now I have some more information from reading your post, and for that I am grateful. Thank you
      Maybe we shouldn't blame them entirely sis. Perhaps you are aware of the traditions because you had to be, where others (heterosexuals) didn't have the awarness. May I suggest printing a flyer or something with the traditions involving the Wintke, to have with you at your next dance and educating our misled brothers and sisters. :) Btw, mad props on being respectful (though not understanding the hypocrisy) and asking permission.
      Dance on. I remember you :)

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      • #4
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        • #5
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          • #6
            Being raised by Lakota does not give you tribal priviledges. Who dressed you? Who taught you? Who spoke for you at your coming out ceremony? Who was the drum who sang your honor song? Which wacipi did this take place at? Who helped with your giveaway? How long did you prepare before dancing like a man? Which northern plains family assisted you?
            Wanjica Infinity No One

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            • #7
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              Last edited by RainWarrior; 04-02-2011, 01:19 PM.

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              • #8
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                Last edited by RainWarrior; 04-03-2011, 04:41 PM.

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                • #9
                  Expect to have a counter reaction at your coming out ceremony. I have seen this happen one time. People may turn their backs on you.
                  Wanjica Infinity No One

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                  • #10
                    Your thoughts?[/QUOTE]

                    I am new to everything so please be patiant,besides mens traditional and the jingle dance.isnt there another form for the women.who want to dance alittle more similar to the men,I dont wish to sound disrespectable.or is it how it should be.I understand there are spiritual dances,and other dances,is there aspecial or is there aloud to be a circle for woman who dont wish to disrespect anyone ,wish to show thier admiration for the dances that are meaningful to them as well as the men?

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                    • #11
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                      • #12
                        Two spirit is a modern term. You must be whatever your tribe/culture calls you. You cannot be a winkte, that term was used only for men who assumed the gender roles of women. There was no Lakota gender form of a woman who assumed the roles of men.

                        Too many contemporary homosexual pick and choose terminology from tribes they are not a part of to justify a modern lifestyle that has no direct connection to an historic form.

                        I am not trying to be negative, I am trying to be honest with you. If you are cherokee, then be cherokee.

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                        • #13
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                          • #14
                            i have a question

                            Originally posted by RainWarrior View Post
                            I'm a woman and I get a lot of disrespect for dancing Men's traditional. There are those that say it is not traditional for a woman to dance this way. I am saddened at the ignorance when it comes to the tradition of the Two-spirit. The Cherokee word is Ski-Gin (that way) in Lakota we are called the Winkte (two spirits) to be a two spirit is to be a person who bi, les, gay etc. What's sad is most (not all) native cultures highly respected people like me who were two spirits. I guess I'm just nervous, I'm headed to a inter tribal pow wow tomorrow and its going to be so hard for me, I know that there will be looks and frowns people thinking I am not traditional or that perhaps I'm simply doing it for attention or to disrupt tradition.

                            Looking back at historical documentations there are over 130 tribes that supported people like me, now days we get called "non-traditional" or asked to leave a pow wow... Like we are doing something wrong when it is simply how creator made us.

                            I wanted to know what people thought on here, or at least shed some light on a dark subject. Maybe help someone who didn't understand when they ran into a two-spirit why they were dressed that way? To help educate so maybe instead of frowns there would be understanding.

                            My elders tell me that being Winkte is special, we were the medicine people, the inbetweens, now we are frowned upon, persecuted..... Has anyone else on here ever come across another two spirit at a pow wow that corss dresses? We are few and far between but I have seen some out there including men that jingle dress, but according to most traditions we should be respected yet we get laughed at and mocked for our medicine. Even if your tribe didn't honor the two-spirit at an inter tribal everyone is allowed to dance and we come together to respect all our cultures and get along in celebration, especially if it isnt on a reservation.

                            Even though I'm Winkte and its tradition for me to dance either womens or men's traditional I always ask permission before entering the circle. I don't agree with switch dancing as its a mocking of heritage and culture. I dance men's traditional because it is what I am supposed to do, it is not a laughing matter.

                            Your thoughts?
                            yes i dont want too disrespect anyone ,are there some dances for woman that are more up beat as the mens dances,is it possible to come up with new dances?or must they be traditional?thank you so much for your time and understanding

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RainWarrior View Post
                              Yes the winkte word was coined in the 80's or 90's I suppose it is quite new age.


                              Then the term I will use is Ski-gin' the word of my people.

                              Thank you.
                              *scratches head*
                              theres some many statements you have made that i would love to pick apart and show you what i feel is wrong with them but that would be counterproductive, and frankly an extremly enourmous consumption of my time.

                              let me just ask are you aware of what the word "ski-gin" means? ie have you talked with someone knowledgable about it? im not asking you to to repeat that information just asking if you know it.

                              we have a word in my tribes language and ive been told what it means and what it entails, tho i am not confortable sharing this for different reasons. just think you should actually -know- and not be assuming because you seem to have misinterepted a few things.

                              i dont want to keep beating a dead horse, or sound rude but
                              as stated before, the words "winkte" and "two-spirit" are new agy terms and are missused which is why i do not apply them to myself. i have never heard an elder call me or someone like me a "two spirit".
                              and like so many words invovling native americans (like the word native american) there is a nomenclature issue.

                              i dont even know where to begin on that one, but suffice it to say that women and men are vastly different and the reasons for being "gay" are different for both of them.

                              oh and just as a side note
                              i have heard that there are a few certain powwows up north somewhere that have crossdresses present tho i have no idea of names dates or locations. maybe you would be interested in being involved with those..
                              Last edited by HaskellAlum; 04-03-2011, 07:41 AM.

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