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  • Originally posted by muskrat_skull View Post
    So individuals are expected to be able to control their alcohol intake, even though alcohol is addicting and mind-altering, but personal responsibility isn't an issue and they don't have to control themselves if a gun or assault weapon is around? The mere presence of an assault weapon or high capacity clip is enough to drive them to go blow everyone away?
    What about all the people that own those weapons and high capacity clips that don't go do mass shootings with them?
    Why don't police officers commit mass shooting with them, if the gun itself is so corrupting? Why are they different?
    Even though there may be many factors that may influence, there is still a responsibility on part of the individual. You mention alcoholics - they are some of the smartest people I know, and there is a time when they are sober and they do have good insight and judgement. It is during this time that they can make an informed decision not to drink (be responsible). I do acknowledge that when an alcoholic does take a drink their judgement is impaired until they are fully sober once again. But lets not make excuses for them

    Originally posted by muskrat_skull View Post
    I do agree with you that a ban on high capacity clips and assault weapons would greatly minimize fatalities in mass shootings, which will occur regardless because some people are just nuts.
    Amen to that! But the NRA is just worried about the bottom line $$$ and just trying to rally the ill informed and prey on their ignorance claiming their guns (all) are going to be taken away, when it is just those weapons you mention above that is under scrutiny and consideration.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lbgood View Post
      Even though there may be many factors that may influence, there is still a responsibility on part of the individual. You mention alcoholics - they are some of the smartest people I know, and there is a time when they are sober and they do have good insight and judgement. It is during this time that they can make an informed decision not to drink (be responsible). I do acknowledge that when an alcoholic does take a drink their judgement is impaired until they are fully sober once again. But lets not make excuses for them
      I dunno about smart, I know some really dumb ones and some multigenerational ones where I don't think the mom even sobered up in the delivery room, let alone during pregnancy.

      I know some that are multigenerational criminals as well as alcoholics and that have stabbed their spouses while drunk and gotten into really bad knock down drag out fights drunk and lots of other stuff like that. When they don't have a drink, they are just as mean because they feel like crap. Other really bad stuff too, all centered around alcohol and done while drunk, stinking drunk. To the stage where people aren't even housebroken, don't know where they are, blind drunk. Sober for them is drunk for other people.

      Originally posted by lbgood View Post
      Amen to that! But the NRA is just worried about the bottom line $$$ and just trying to rally the ill informed and prey on their ignorance claiming their guns (all) are going to be taken away, when it is just those weapons you mention above that is under scrutiny and consideration.
      The enhanced background checks and screenings are going to be a real privacy issue as far as medical history goes. I strongly oppose these measures but you watch they will pass as American govt and business are obsessed with having access to every bit of info on every person.

      Comment


      • I was wondering, are there any customs, etiquettes, or rituals about drinking alcohol for nDn’s?

        In my culture we have the marketed ‘drink to party’ stuff going on, and alcoholics as well; although we do not have a word for alcoholics, we simply say “those who drink too much.” But we also use alot of customs or cultural ways to drink with others. Basically, drinking is an opportunity to show respect and how cultured you are. Alcohol's significance is social more than it is about alcohol content or getting effe'd up. For example, pouring your own drink means you are socially disconnecting your self, so ppl are conscious to pour each other's. As ceremony, pouring alcohol on a grave is respecting their 'living' spirit and the act of recognizing their presence.

        I'm not sure how these customs developed, perhaps after marijuana became banned, but it builds a respectful consciousness and a path for the drinker to contribute and connect with society.

        I am aware of tobacco and peyote customs in various nDn cultures, but I haven’t seen it in regards to alcohol. Just wondering if there was a nDn cultural way beyond the ‘war on alcohol.’ Also to suggest, the opportunity to use alcohol to strengthen community.
        When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it—always.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by reocurringdream View Post
          As ceremony, pouring alcohol on a grave is respecting their 'living' spirit and the act of recognizing their presence.
          SOLID POST.

          I have been taught that anything given to the Earth is a gift to the Old Ones.

          I haven't opened a bottle of scotch in twenty years where the first thimble wasn't poured somewhere that it could hit the ground, even if it was off a hotel balcony in a foreign country when I couldn't spell "cat" if you gave me the "C" and the "A" due to consumption.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by reocurringdream View Post
            I was wondering, are there any customs, etiquettes, or rituals about drinking alcohol for nDn’s?

            In my culture we have the marketed ‘drink to party’ stuff going on, and alcoholics as well; although we do not have a word for alcoholics, we simply say “those who drink too much.” But we also use alot of customs or cultural ways to drink with others. Basically, drinking is an opportunity to show respect and how cultured you are. Alcohol's significance is social more than it is about alcohol content or getting effe'd up. For example, pouring your own drink means you are socially disconnecting your self, so ppl are conscious to pour each other's. As ceremony, pouring alcohol on a grave is respecting their 'living' spirit and the act of recognizing their presence.

            I'm not sure how these customs developed, perhaps after marijuana became banned, but it builds a respectful consciousness and a path for the drinker to contribute and connect with society.

            I am aware of tobacco and peyote customs in various nDn cultures, but I haven’t seen it in regards to alcohol. Just wondering if there was a nDn cultural way beyond the ‘war on alcohol.’ Also to suggest, the opportunity to use alcohol to strengthen community.
            http://www.montana.edu/wwwai/imsd/al...historyweb.htm
            Souvenir Alcohol Flasks
            Most remarkable of the novelty items connecting Indian with alcohol are the souvenir alcohol flasks featured below. These appear to have been mass-produced and mass marketed to national park gift shops and tourist destinations around the country, probably in the 1950s and 1960s. The graphics are identical, and the name of the tourist place is typically embossed in gold. Many of these are from places that are generally not immediately associated with Indians, including Lincoln's Boyhood Home and the U.S. Capitol. Most remarkable of all, perhaps, is one sold at gift shops at or near the Cherokee Indian Reservation in North Carolina. The front of these flasks typically features a drunken Indian and a reference to "firewater." On the reverse of some are consumption levels, with dergatory names for each level, such as "feelum better" and "wantum sing." The person who drinks the entire flask, is a "dead injun." Front and back views are provided for each flask below.
            From below link and there are pictures
            Native Americans: The Ignoble Savage: The Drunk Injun

            I had my first drink probably before I even knew I had it. Alcohol was commonly wiped on the gums of teething babies, heard family tales of it being put in the bottles of babies. The first drink in a social setting was a glass of wine at dinner at about age three, because I was old enough to likely not spill it. It was a small glass but I was allowed to have refills. It was very sweet like candy so I liked it and I got lightheaded and was told to lay down and not have anymore. We also got the foam off our grandpa's beer and by the time of grade school commonly had wine with adults at dinner but did not overconsume, and would not be disciplined if we took a beer from the fridge.

            The desire to overconsume did not occur really occur until I reached jr. high and saw people getting drunk and doing funny stuff and saw it as a rite of passage type thing.

            My sister had the same experience. Neither of us are alcoholics. I cannot drink due to my health. I would drink occasionally if I could. My grandmother who was Indian sipped PBR beer from a glass full of ice slowly, maybe two or three a day. She used to drink pretty heavily socially though. She had her favorite bars and people knew her. She was very social. Uncles and grandfather drank more and could be bad.

            My sister still drinks socially as do my parents. I continue to make alcohol to cook with and give if people want it. My parents were very much part of the cocktail set as I grew up, care was taken to prepare drinks for guests and know what they preferred. Sometimes we would pretend to play bar as children, with coolaid and pretend to get drunk.

            My boyfriend is Apache and Cherokee and alcohol affects him horribly, he gets blind drunk and doesn't know where he is or who anyone is. I have seen this in my ex-father in law too, who is full-blooded, lots of violence and total loss of reality when drunk.

            My boyfriend was not brought up learning how to drink, and was not allowed to drink until much older than my sister and I. It was not part of a social occasion or celebration and no care to preparation of cocktails was taken, but just drink from the bottle or jar as part of everyday life, as was drinking to excess and getting violent. He cannot drink a drop or he will not stop.

            My family ran taverns, sold or traded alcohol, and were bootleggers and/or made alcohol for generations.

            Comment


            • [MENTION=11084]Zeke[/MENTION]
              Perhaps we honor the Old Ones together one day.

              [MENTION=127906]muskrat_skull[/MENTION]
              Appreciate your thoughtfulness. I don't know if its too forward to say, but I feel like your the sister I never had. I can't help to find the similarity in thought we share.
              When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it—always.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Zeke View Post
                So you're quantifying the morality of something based upon the population base of where it is legally available?

                Somehow, that seems an inefficient mode of thought and the idea that anyone is being scammed here is the same sort of uber-victimization thinking that keeps many Rez Natives as virtual second class citizens in third world countries.

                We're discussing a legal product produced by a vendor, purchased legally by a patron, then transported illegally by a trafficker and used irresponsibly by the consumer. (Note how the definitions change? That's due to the consumer.) Nothing bad has occurred here until the PURCHASER acts with slimy intent.

                That's WAY different than generating an illegal pyramid scheme then pressuring little old ladies to invest their life savings with slimy and malicious intent to defraud them of their funds. That's evil from jump and the fault of the vendor.

                It's NOT the same.

                Again I see your point of view, but "Legal", doesn't necessarily = moral or even right.

                I see it as the same in this sense:

                taking advantage/scamming of an elders who's metal faculties aren't as they used to be, to profit looks exactly the same to me as planting 4 liquor stores in a map dot of population 14 1 mile from reservation lands to sell liquor to a population known to have a drinking problem, all to gain profit. Legal or not, my opinion is it is morally, ethically and spiritually WRONG!

                Agree or not. My opinion.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                  I see it as the same in this sense:

                  taking advantage/scamming of an elders who's metal faculties aren't as they used to be...
                  You're saying we don't have "mental faculties?"

                  THAT'S what's "wrong."

                  Must the Great White Father protect us, forever?

                  Respectfully, that's weak sauce.
                  Last edited by Zeke; 04-19-2013, 04:23 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Zeke View Post
                    You're saying we don't have "mental faculties?"

                    THAT'S what's "wrong."

                    Must the Great White Father protect us, forever?

                    Respectfully, that's weak sauce.
                    Zeke sometimes you look too deep into something. You're looking for something not there. Plain and simple, it's profiting off of someones addiction and the Government is ok with that cause they're getting paid. No hidden meaning in it. Just the way it is. You don't have to like it or agree with it, just the way I see it.

                    and if you've ever been addicted to something, when you NEED it, you DONT have your mental faculties. which is why most will do ANYTHING to obtain it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                      Zeke sometimes you look too deep into something. You're looking for something not there.
                      Like accountability for our own actions?

                      Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                      Plain and simple, it's profiting off of someones addiction and the Government is ok with that cause they're getting paid.
                      How is the government "getting paid" by continuing to support us? Somehow, I bet the taxes raised on any border town alcohol sale pales in comparison to the $$$ spent by the Feds subsidizing healthcare of alcoholic Natives.

                      Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                      No hidden meaning in it. Just the way it is. You don't have to like it or agree with it, just the way I see it.
                      You see us as social children?

                      Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                      and if you've ever been addicted to something, when you NEED it, you DONT have your mental faculties. which is why most will do ANYTHING to obtain it.
                      And whose fault is it many Natives are addicted to alcohol?

                      It's not liquor stores or the Feds.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Zeke View Post
                        Like accountability for our own actions?
                        Holy ANAL Retention Batman!
                        Havent I been one of the few who have continued to agree with you on that subject. Again, too deep.

                        Dont tell me what I see you as, cause first you'd be wrong, 2nd, you probably wouldn't like it nontheless.

                        Again my opinion, you don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it.

                        IF your walls keep cramping take some midol.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                          Holy ANAL Retention Batman!
                          Havent I been one of the few who have continued to agree with you on that subject. Again, too deep.
                          1. Not that I can tell.
                          2. I'm not a fan of intellectual superficiality.

                          Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                          Dont tell me what I see you as, cause first you'd be wrong, 2nd, you probably wouldn't like it nontheless.
                          3. If I'm wrong, it's because you expressed yourself poorly.
                          4. You presume that I care.

                          Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                          Again my opinion, you don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it.
                          5. I'll just keep pointing out how it is inaccurate.

                          Originally posted by rezrazed View Post
                          IF your walls keep cramping take some midol.
                          6. Not your best attempt at an insult.
                          7. Credit (tiny) given for trying.

                          May I suggest an alternative? Try a winning argument. It's much easier to score web board points if you begin with validity.

                          Comment


                          • there's likely at least two sides to this, people that are not the alcoholics, but have to deal with them all the time, would like to see the stores closed, because since they cannot control the alcoholics, they can only try to control the environment contributing to it.

                            And the alcoholic, who would probably rather have it delivered to the door, along with the paper and whatever else they desire.

                            I'm not big on the trying to control the environment. I'd rather throw the unruly alcoholic in jail and force sobriety and then force rehab, at least once or twice.

                            People have two parts, the physical and spiritual. How wounded does a person have to become, in either areas, before society should step in? And if people are needy and whining and so self-absorbed they can't perceive reality, is that likely to change when they are off alcohol? Do they care that they are walking wounded? Many don't, even when sober.

                            If they have no shame and feel they are owed, that may just be the way they are. They don't love anyone, not their kids, no one. If they did, they would at least try to stop. It might take a few days in jail to sober them up enough to care enough to try to stop. But some people really just don't care.

                            Comment

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