Women in Regalia Part 2.. white dancer discussion Part 1001

[C_Rock77]

Originally posted by Suzizila
To all of those tandy clan road kill dancer wierdos....get a life, take a step back, learn something, and quit making up your own protocol just because you think it looks cool. That's not the way that it is done & you're giving the rest of us a bad name.

A better way, it's NEVER been put!

VERY TRUE!

[Suzizila]

Thanks! I have seen too many things go on that shouldn't be happening in the arena. It's not just the road kill people either. How many times have you seen dancers (non ndns of course) who haven't bothered to learn how to dance the style they are trying to dance & look really crazy in the arena. (They must be graduates of the Costner Fire Dance Academy.) There's this one guy in my area who looks like a chicken dancer (no insults meant to the Real chicken dancers present) instead of a traditional "whatever" (I haven't been able to determine if he is northern, southern, or eastern.) dancer moving his head around looking for the enemy or game, he's pecking at the ground. (I think he's the one who crossed the road, trying to get away from Col. Sanders.) A dancer at another powwow was overheard saying that she bought her dance clothing off of Ebay. I wonder if she took the time to learn about the background, meaning, and responsibilities of being a jingle dress dancer. (Oh boy, move over tandies..... now we have the Ebay clan ...... ) Once again, it's these instant, throw it together, wear it, and dance because it looks cool dancers, who don't take the time to learn the proper way things should be done, that are making a mockery of the dance styles & are giving the rest of us (non ndns)a bad name. It's no wonder a ton of people around here get pee'd off when you see non ndn people dancing. We can't make the Tandy, road kill, and Ebay dancers stop long enough to realize what they are doing is Wrong. Once again, they all need to stop, step out of the arena, and learn how things are supposed to be done before they do anything.

[PhoenixFire]

Originally posted by Homalosa
I don't believe such people want to be Indian. They don't. They don't want to be mistaken for Latino, or believed to be annihilated. They don't want to have sports teams laugh at them. They don't want to be struggle to be 1% of the population. They don't want to be the new scapegoat (how dare poor Indians make casino money when California has lint in her pockets).

These people don't want to be Indian. They don't want to be Latino. They damn sure don't want to be Black (uh, officer, can you beat me tomorrow instead of today?)

No, they want to dance with a grandpa elder.
They want us (the Latino) to mow their lawns.
They want us (the African Americans) to tell funny jokes and play ball like Kobe (oops, not like Kobe, he had him a white girl).
Then they want to go to their nice homes in the suburbs and feel blessed to be who they are.

And if we dare tell them that we'd rather not? Oh lawdy lawdy! They'll remind us that we don't know our own cultures and that we've inherited the minds of the ones who profited from our lots in the first place.

Okay, I never explained to anyone that I DO respect your culture and your collective answer of "Hell No!" What I don't respect or appreciate is that racism has run rampant throughout this thread. i am formally and publicly asking that mato lock this thread for once and for all out of respect for all those that are getting verbally reamed just because of their skin color (that goes for both sides of this old *** debate). I'm done.

[Singing Otter]

No disrespect meant but I think homa's post went waaaaaay over your head. I don't think anyone's reaming anyone for being a certain race, they're just stating what they've observed. Please read it again. :)

With that said, I have a question...... who started passing out tobacco before/during grand entry to sprinkle on the ground before entering the circle? ya see some wild stuff........

[hummingrose]

WHO the HELL are you?! You don't even know me, OR know ANYTHING about me! Have you ever seen me dance? Likely, NO!

As for where did I learn how to dance, or the ways in the circle...NO, I didn't learn them online or from a book. I learned by observing, watching, and speaking with knowledgeable individuals. I designed and crafted my clothes, myself, taking cues from old photos, new photos, videos, and not least of all, dancers I've danced with. I don't know everything, nor do I claim to. I'm still learning ways and traditions in this circle, and will continue to do so until the day I die.

As for MY reasons for dancing....they're mine....noone else's. Are you going to sit there and question anyone who follows the religion of Buddhism who's not Asian? Are you going to question someone's interest in something like Eastern Martial Arts and the associated philosophy if that person's NOT Japanese, Korean, or Chinese?

Evidently, YOU are not familiar with the Powwow... In EVERY conversation I've had with elders and other knowledgeable people about dancing, the question has come up of who is allowed to dance. In those instances they told me that the drum and dancing are for ALL PEOPLE. If you feel it, do it. Do this to the best of your abilities. Show respect, and dance.

Did they say this is ONLY for Indian people? NO! I have white friends who are members of war dance societies. Do you feel it's wrong for them to dance? Who are YOU to say it's wrong when the Head Man of that society took one of these men into his own family?

YOU don't know me or ANYTHING about me. Who are YOU to pass judgment on ME?!

More power to you. I am Irish, Hungarian, AND Cherokee and I've been riduculed at pow wows by native peers about not being full Cherokee. I'm proud of my Irish and Hungarian AND Cherokee culture. Us natives as a whole should not be so exclusive. We don't want those outside of our culture to get the wrong idea about us, but at the same time we don't want them to know about us....? does this philosophy make sense? C-Rock, It doesn't matter how much or, in your instance, if any is in your blood. It only matters how loud your drum beats. I would be honored any day to dance with you in the circle.

My deepest respect goes out to you. Thank you for taking the time to build bridges. :agree?:

[hummingrose]

No, I don't know you're right. You're wrong. I'm not going to sit here and watch you type all that. Thinking you know more about being Indian and about pow-wows? Please. I don't know where you get your info. I've been Indian for 25yrs, how long have you been Indian? I'm sure you "ndns" in Arkansas know way more about our way of life more than us in Alberta or Arizona or Montana or Saskatchewan.

Didn't you read what he said? He isn't trying to be Indian. He did go through the "correct" entrance ways into the circle. Are we trying to build bridges or burn them? You are so ignorant. And that's coming from one Native to another.

[hummingrose]

Am I less of a person then if I'm not full blooded? Are my opinions and comments not as valid? Come on! Grow up into the real world. It doesn't matter if your full blooded or not. If your wrong, your wrong. Creater did not give those who are full blooded more rights and priviledges including more wisdom. Your Creator is still my Creator and C-Rocks Creator. Let him be the judge of what's right or wrong.

[hummingrose]

As if I'd tell YOU anything about my culture. You came in here trying to tell ppl how pw is. What gives you the right to educate anyone about anything to do with pw? I take offence to any white person trying to tell others what to do. You were acting like you knew it all because you "observed and researched" for years. Who gives a **** about what you've "observed and researched.." If I have a bad attitude, it's because of know-it-alls like you.

Who are you or any of you to decide who can dance and who can't? You want people to stop stereotyping, but you won't allow them to learn. You say because you are not us, you don't have a "right" to know or learn. Well, speaking as an American, go back to your reservation and stay there becasue that is not what America is about and nobody needs or wants your attitude on American soil. Have fun earning your own Native money. You can stop using government funds as well since they are giving your rez money but they don't understand your culture, (because you won't let them.) Stop harrasing those who want to learn more. Educate those who want to learn more. We want respect? Give respect to earn respect. None of you have earned thier respect and certaintly not mine. (And I'm Native!)

[Homalosa]

American soil? Hmm, and how did that come to be? :?????:

[Mato Winyan]

None of you have earned thier respect and certaintly not mine. (And I'm Native!)

None of you have earned thier respect and certaintly not mine. (And I'm Native!)

None of you have earned thier respect and certaintly not mine. (And I'm Native!)


Wow... no matter how many times I read that... I am still amazed.

[hummingrose]

We must treat our culture like we would any family heirloom; with respect, utmost care and protection to ensure it's longevity for our future generations.

This comment is made with all my respect: most heirloms end up in antique shops and flea markets for anyone to enjoy.

[hummingrose]

Ok, as a person of mixed-blood who is all NDN, I will dance at powwows, but not competition ones as I feel dancing to be a form of praying. If we had a place to have a monthly Social around here, I would also dance there, because dancing together is a fellowship, a thing which lifts our spirits. When the occasion and invitation arises, I have gone to prayer dances and Sacred Fire ceremonies. There is a proper way for a woman to dress even at a social or during inter-tribal at powwows, where modest attire(cover your hide or stay outside) includes a shawl.

Ceremonies such as stomps require regalia that you do not wear anywhere else, not to powwows even. Due to the sacred nature of these ceremonies, I will not discuss the regalia, but those of us who follow our traditional cultures know what this entails, and again, modesty is a part of it.

It's too danged hot here for buckskin, so I wear cloth dresses for powwow. I like to make mine with a tunic top and skirt, so the top also doubles as a ribbon shirt. I have a tear dress, but usually wear it when the weather is cooler-all those yards of material can operate like a sauna in the high humidity we get here in the Southeast. Before the tear dress our women wore a tunic and skirt, with leggings. Before I even start an outfit, I pray over it. While I make it, I pray over it, when I finish it, I pray over it. Every time I put it on or take it off, I pray over it. While I'm wearing it I am mindful of my attitudes, words, and actions because I am in the presence of my Creator and ancestors, and those assembled there, as a Cherokee woman and as a representative of my people in front of non-Indians. I will not shame my people or myself by "playing" Indian.

Traditionally, Cherokee women did not wear eagle feathers as adornment. If you wore one, it was because you had been honored for something or because you had a son or husband at war. I was given one long ago, and passed it on to my younger daughter when she began dancing. Just as I had been shown how to honor that feather and care for it, I made sure she knew how to do so as well, so that we would both continue to be blessed through it. I gave her my redtail wing fan, which had also had been received as a gift.

I still have a fan of hawk tail feathers, and one made from the right wing of a young wild turkey hen that had been shot by my son. He had prepared for the hunt in the proper way, brought her down with a clean shot, prayed over and thanked her for her gift, then gave every part of her away. Interestingly enough, the only people who've said anything about it to me were whites who-trying to show how much they know-said I was carrying it because I must not be really Indian. Imagine their surprise when a full-blood came to my defense and told them they didn't know anything, that to us Cherokees the turkey is also sacred, and that they should be more respectful. Hmmm, maybe some day I'll make one of those turkey feather capes our people used to wear.

I see plenty of ill-made regalia, worn by wannabe's playing Indian who don't have a clue as to what regalia is about, what being NDN is about. Sure, if someone is trying to connect with their lost heritage, I can have a heart for them, but someone who's truly NDN will understand that they don't step into that circle until the elders say they're ready to, and that there are certain protocols which must be honored for them to be ready. They have to be taught by someone who has elders' permission to do so, they have to prepare mentally and spiritually as well as physically-learning what the dances mean, where they came from, why they're done. And when they're brought into the circle, they have to honor the elders, the drum(s), those officiating, and those who taught them...and give-aways are not cheap, either in terms of cost or in time spent choosing what to give each person, making things, and making each gift a blessing to the person you give it to.

Correcting these people is the responsibility of the whipman, whipwoman, arena directors, or elders. Much as we want to say something to them, it may not be our place to do so as we are then taking on authority we weren't given. When I see something that isn't right, I go to the person in authority and tell them. Even if it's out of the circle or at a powwow or other event open to the general public, it reflects better on us as a whole to correct someone gently if possible, or to respond to someone else's ignorance with dignity and decorum. There's enough fools out there, no need to lower ourselves to their level. Or as my son says, never argue with an idiot-he'll pull you down to his level then beat you with experience.

How is someone like me gonna ever be able to dance? I'm part Cherokee, but I don't know anyone who is "Cherokee enough" to teach me the right and wrongs. I've danced before at inter-tribals and even attend a full moon ceremony. (Oh! a humming bird is right outside my window!... that's my namesake.... she's giving me strength!) Anyway... is my heritage just lost inside of me because there is no one to teach me. Can't I still dance? I do know the respectful way to act at Powwows. Please, if you know of a focus group concerning this topic, or of any "true" elders that can help me near Tacoma, Washington let me know. However, I do respect your comments, and I think you presented a nice middle ground between the two objections

[hummingrose]

Ladies, Stephan chose to post in response to the fact that Native Americans are not the only culture in this world that used, wore or held in high regard (or in other words considered sacred) the Eagle and it's part. If either of you might have take the time to observe other cultures in your short lives you may have noticed the use of eagle feathers is fairly common among the Scottish to just state one example. The way they use them is not entirely different from the way natives do, though not nearly so many are used at once, but nonetheless they are a highly respected and symbolic part of their traditional dress clothes. The cultural use of these thing by native american culture does not make their use exclusively yours. The fact that you both chose to so flippantly dismiss someone that was merely trying to enlighten you to the use of feathers by people of other country only shows how pathetically narrow minded your view of the world is. Yes, this thread and board are both in reference to native american culture but in this day and age no culture can ignore the others and to be so rude to someone injecting FACTS is pathetic.

More over, I must have misread something because I never once saw where C-Rock77 ever stated that he possessed, much less wore REAL eagle feathers, and isn't that a large part of what you have been droning on and on about?

Is this how you get your frustrations out? I can't say I have seen either of you do anything on this board but complain about one thing or another (well outside of you acting goofy in the chat forum that is).

Feel free to dive in on me too, cause I am through with this and will not be back to discuss your arrogant behavior again. Have a nice day.

Whether you read this or not, I have to agree with you 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are not in an exclusive club!

[hummingrose]

American soil? Hmm, and how did that come to be? :?????:

Stronger nations have always conquered weaker nations, even between our own ancestors. I wonder what would have become of us if the Aztecs or Cortez had met us first? Would we even exist? :28:

[hummingrose]

None of you have earned thier respect and certaintly not mine. (And I'm Native!)

None of you have earned thier respect and certaintly not mine. (And I'm Native!)


Wow... no matter how many times I read that... I am still amazed.

meaning I don't have to respect them just beacuse I am Native and so are they. :wall: